PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[jasonbarron]

I'm happy you're happy ;-) I don't think we've ever really conversed.



Nope. Maybe my post got deleted.

Interesting. That's pretty sad that you were motivated to write an opinion piece on me that actually broke forum rules. Besides disagreements on PvP matters, I don't see what I've ever done to you. That's okay, I don't let stuff like that effect me one way or the other. If you want to opine on game stuff you know nothing about and then be upset with me, a person who's opinions stem from actually engaging the topic at hand on a daily basis, I suppose that's understandable; nobody likes to have their ignorance questioned by an authority on the topic, especially when their personal agenda is to either derail every PvPers opinion that comes up or to pass themselves off as some kind of expert on the matter for the purpose of somehow shaping policy in regards to PvP.

In light of that, it's perfectly understandable why you hold such a harsh opinion of me.

 

[Riverside]

You have a recent 18 month stretch where you didn't have to worry about this at all. The mind reels that your views should be taken seriously by anyone who has been dealing with all of that for that 18 month stretch.

Look at your proposal to increase hit points as a way to close the PvE and PvP gap. Most PvPers, who have been doing PvP while you were exploring the Bubble, are arguing against further hit point inflation.

Think this idea over. I mean this, sincerely: '“Don’t judge someone until you’ve stood at his forge and worked with his hammer."

I am in favour of nerfs generally, for example there have been a few requests for the Corvette to be buffed (jump range, or change the two smalls to mediums etc, you know the kind of thing), my stance has been that the Vette is the big ship that's okay, the Cutter is too fast and/or has too big a shield, the Conda is too light and/or too strong a hull tank.

But there has to be compromise, and in general people don't like the idea of nerfing shields, so that proposal was my attempt to 'sell' a shield nerf to the 'buff all the things' crowd by calling it a buff to something else. The overall effect would be the same because they are just arbitrary numbers and it's how they relate to each other that is important, not the actual values themselves. It wasn't a particularly successful proposal, most of mine aren't. You probably don't notice most of them, but the big ones like the CLogging proposal & the Cobra MkIV functional clone stand out, I'm quite proud of those.

But none of my proposals have been implemented since the one about remembering the state of the ship headlights when recalling your ship, because it looks cool.

I'm sure you have your own successes & failures, and maybe I didn't notice those, because until about a week ago we'd never conversed that I can recall. If you'd like to highlight any I'd be happy to look them over. I understand you post quite regularly when people ask for loadout tips, that's an area I tend to avoid as I mentioned before, so maybe that's why I haven't seen your better stuff.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I'm happy you're happy ;-) I don't think we've ever really conversed.

I don't think we have either.

Please consider that your beliefs are not as valuable as the understanding that others bring to those discussions.

 

[Riverside]

Interesting. That's pretty sad that you were motivated to write an opinion piece on me that actually broke forum rules. Besides disagreements on PvP matters, I don't see what I've ever done to you. That's okay, I don't let stuff like that effect me one way or the other. If you want to opine on game stuff you know nothing about and then be upset with me, a person who's opinions stem from actually engaging the topic at hand on a daily basis, I suppose that's understandable; nobody likes to have their ignorance questioned by an authority on the topic, especially when their personal agenda is to either derail every PvPers opinion that comes up or to pass themselves off as some kind of expert on the matter for the purpose of somehow shaping policy in regards to PvP.

In light of that, it's perfectly understandable why you hold such a harsh opinion of me.

Ok

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I am in favour of nerfs generally, for example there have been a few requests for the Corvette to be buffed (jump range, or change the two smalls to mediums etc, you know the kind of thing), my stance has been that the Vette is the big ship that's okay, the Cutter is too fast and/or has too big a shield, the Conda is too light and/or too strong a hull tank.

But there has to be compromise, and in general people don't like the idea of nerfing shields, so that proposal was my attempt to 'sell' a shield nerf to the 'buff all the things' crowd by calling it a buff to something else. The overall effect would be the same because they are just arbitrary numbers and it's how they relate to each other that is important, not the actual values themselves. It wasn't a particularly successful proposal, most of mine aren't. You probably don't notice most of them, but the big ones like the CLogging proposal & the Cobra MkIV functional clone stand out, I'm quite proud of those.

But none of my proposals have been implemented since the one about remembering the state of the ship headlights when recalling your ship, because it looks cool.

I'm sure you have your own successes & failures, and maybe I didn't notice those, because until about a week ago we'd never conversed that I can recall. If you'd like to highlight any I'd be happy to look them over. I understand you post quite regularly when people ask for loadout tips, that's an area I tend to avoid as I mentioned before, so maybe that's why I haven't seen your better stuff.

How about you let me know when you want to spar? Bring whatever you like. Doesn’t have to be to the death.

Then we’ll go from there.

 

[Riverside]

I don't think we have either.

Please consider that your beliefs are not as valuable as the understanding that others bring to those discussions.

Have you considered how important others consider your posts?
Whether you think my stuff is worth reading is not why I write them.
I write them because I think they should be said.

Why does it matter to me whether I pass your test? Maybe I pass someone elses test. Maybe I fail them all except my own. Why do you post the stuff you write?

 

[Riverside]

How about you let me know when you want to spar? Bring whatever you like. Doesn’t have to be to the death.

Then we’ll go from there.

Why would I do that? You challenged me before, and you understood my response. None of these past few pages have addressed any of the points in my rambling post other than your testing my credentials. You can't debate for toffee, I'm not even trying to put you down, just sitting here answering a bunch of questions from the audience

Do you want PvP to be more popular?

Do you want PvP to have more meaning?

Do you want the benefits of CLogging to be mitigated?

Do you want a Cobra MkIV functional Clone?

Do you want an interstellar factor to take your data bonds?

Do you want your ship lights to stay on if you switched them on then dismissed your ship? You got that one.

Do I care whether you, as a frustrated player can get a better game? Yes, I do as long as it doesn't make someone else's game worse.

 

[jasonbarron]

Why would I do that? You challenged me before, and you understood my response. None of these past few pages have addressed any of the points in my rambling post other than your testing my credentials. You can't debate for toffee, I'm not even trying to put you down, just sitting here answering a bunch of questions from the audience

Do you want PvP to be more popular?

Do you want PvP to have more meaning?

Do you want the benefits of CLogging to be mitigated?

Do you want a Cobra MkIV functional Clone?

Do you want an interstellar factor to take your data bonds?

Do you want your ship lights to stay on if you switched them on then dismissed your ship? You got that one.

Do I care whether you, as a frustrated player can get a better game? Yes, I do as long as it doesn't make someone else's game worse.

Yes.

In order for that to happen, Fdev needs to actually listen to people who know the topic front to back and not purely as a hypothetical

Yes

Could care less

What?

Yes!!!

 

[Riverside]

Yes.

In order for that to happen, Fdev needs to actually listen to people who know the topic front to back and not purely as a hypothetical

Yes

Could care less

What?

Yes!!!

In the suggestions section there are thousands of threads, probably every single one has a better chance of being seen by a dev than 100+ pages into a snipefest like this (the OP was clearly trolling PvPers, quite successfully by now).

Sometimes, maybe most of the time, people are frustrated by a thing, or lack of a thing, but just vent their frustration in threads like this. I read these threads, I ask questions, I come up with proposals to solve those problems. Most of them aren't problems I see in the game, I already own a Cobra MkIV, and it's a terrible ship (IMO) but some people are obsessed that some have access to it & they don't. Do you see?

Now these proposals are often not that good, they fall between two stools or they have some fundamental flaw. But sometimes the resulting conversation and pulling apart of the initial idea strengthen it. Like that flow chart Skid posted earlier, where negative feedback is taken onboard.

If you are frustrated by something but don't know how to fix it, maybe someone else does. So start a proposal thread to fix the problem. You don't even have to have your own idea, just ask for help & someone (might be me) will chip in.

Maybe it's a problem that can't be solved, maybe it's like that on purpose because of some previous problem (like station speed limits).

If you don't want to support an idea because it's a bad idea, say so, and say why you think it's bad. If you don't want to support an idea because the OP wasn't a 'true PvPer' well that's on you.

Have a look at Mohrgan's proposal, have a read through & see what you think. If you add a post try to write it on the assumption that you are persuading the devs that your argument is the correct one. They know exactly how popular PvP is, they know how many players play in Open. You & I don't.

 

[Globusdiablo]

In the suggestions section there are thousands of threads, probably every single one has a better chance of being seen by a dev than 100+ pages into a snipefest like this (the OP was clearly trolling PvPers, quite successfully by now).

Sometimes, maybe most of the time, people are frustrated by a thing, or lack of a thing, but just vent their frustration in threads like this. I read these threads, I ask questions, I come up with proposals to solve those problems. Most of them aren't problems I see in the game, I already own a Cobra MkIV, and it's a terrible ship (IMO) but some people are obsessed that some have access to it & they don't. Do you see?

Now these proposals are often not that good, they fall between two stools or they have some fundamental flaw. But sometimes the resulting conversation and pulling apart of the initial idea strengthen it. Like that flow chart Skid posted earlier, where negative feedback is taken onboard.

If you are frustrated by something but don't know how to fix it, maybe someone else does. So start a proposal thread to fix the problem. You don't even have to have your own idea, just ask for help & someone (might be me) will chip in.

Maybe it's a problem that can't be solved, maybe it's like that on purpose because of some previous problem (like station speed limits).

If you don't want to support an idea because it's a bad idea, say so, and say why you think it's bad. If you don't want to support an idea because the OP wasn't a 'true PvPer' well that's on you.

Have a look at Mohrgan's proposal, have a read through & see what you think. If you add a post try to write it on the assumption that you are persuading the devs that your argument is the correct one. They know exactly how popular PvP is, they know how many players play in Open. You & I don't.

Rang my bells. All out of appreciation for now.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

In the suggestions section there are thousands of threads, probably every single one has a better chance of being seen by a dev than 100+ pages into a snipefest like this (the OP was clearly trolling PvPers, quite successfully by now).

Sometimes, maybe most of the time, people are frustrated by a thing, or lack of a thing, but just vent their frustration in threads like this. I read these threads, I ask questions, I come up with proposals to solve those problems. Most of them aren't problems I see in the game, I already own a Cobra MkIV, and it's a terrible ship (IMO) but some people are obsessed that some have access to it & they don't. Do you see?

Now these proposals are often not that good, they fall between two stools or they have some fundamental flaw. But sometimes the resulting conversation and pulling apart of the initial idea strengthen it. Like that flow chart Skid posted earlier, where negative feedback is taken onboard.

If you are frustrated by something but don't know how to fix it, maybe someone else does. So start a proposal thread to fix the problem. You don't even have to have your own idea, just ask for help & someone (might be me) will chip in.

Maybe it's a problem that can't be solved, maybe it's like that on purpose because of some previous problem (like station speed limits).

If you don't want to support an idea because it's a bad idea, say so, and say why you think it's bad. If you don't want to support an idea because the OP wasn't a 'true PvPer' well that's on you.

Have a look at Mohrgan's proposal, have a read through & see what you think. If you add a post try to write it on the assumption that you are persuading the devs that your argument is the correct one. They know exactly how popular PvP is, they know how many players play in Open. You & I don't.

It can simply be solved by defining the rules based around risk and reward.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Have you considered how important others consider your posts?
Whether you think my stuff is worth reading is not why I write them.
I write them because I think they should be said.

Why does it matter to me whether I pass your test? Maybe I pass someone elses test. Maybe I fail them all except my own. Why do you post the stuff you write?

That is confusing objective and subjective measures.
It's not my metrics at all.
You are failing to understand the implications of the words in italics.

 

[Riverside]

It can simply be solved by defining the rules based around risk and reward.

I'm trying to hang back from Mohrgan's thead, too much of what I would say was said in my failed thread & feel no great urge to repeat it.

Taking the statement quoted here I completely agree, on risk vs reward. If you were to be instanced with me and decided I was a valid target you would be at little risk, I would probably feel I was at great risk. But if you were instanced with ALGOMATIC I guess the situation would be reversed.

So that, to me, suggests loadout is all-important. You would be (presumably) optimised for killing another player, I would be in a much more PvE oriented loadout, good enough to escape but (regardless of skill differential) probably not tough enough to withstand a sustained battle.

However between you & ALGOMATIC I would guess you would be in similarly capable killing machines, and skill would become the important factor in terms of risk vs reward.

What do you think?

 

[Riverside]

That is confusing objective and subjective measures.
It's not my metrics at all.
You are failing to understand the implications of the words in italics.

Fair enough, so what? Just ignore me.

 

[Riverside]

Great post (can't rep again) and wise insights on what's going on with this game and its community. Always warms my heart to see a PvPer thinking outside the box. I believe PvP would be a lot more popular if the majority of PvPers would share a similar mindset. All what I read on these forums is usually a lot of drama and pathos when it comes to PvP. I'm not a big fan of heroism. Or in other words, if so many PvPers wouldn't have such an utterly blown up ego problem, I guess a lot of players would have less concerns about wasting their time with these mindless griefers. Griefing as such is not the culprit, but some apes here propagating their cheesy deeds all the time isn't all too encouraging by leaving an impression that Open would be brimfull of this sort of 'immersive' gameplay (which fortunately isn't the case, maybe in some regions and depending on where you are living and of course where you are and what you do in the galaxy).

That said, challenges can be found outside of PvP as well but mainly creative solutions that sometimes even require to ignore what others already have found. Old-school players still know it as 'playing unspoiled', almost an abnormality these days and, in a way, downright crazy. But not more crazy then deliberately refusing to drive a car and using a bicycle instead. Car drivers usually won't get this and thus debating these things like playing FA Off only or ironman mode isn't quite easy to communicate. Because it's basically less efficient and simply doesn't fit into the current Zeitgeist. And fun is a very individual and subjective thing, often far away form any objective considerations.

I feel compelled to point out that I am not a dedicated PvP player, but thank you all the same The world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I'm trying to hang back from Mohrgan's thead, too much of what I would say was said in my failed thread & feel no great urge to repeat it.

Taking the statement quoted here I completely agree, on risk vs reward. If you were to be instanced with me and decided I was a valid target you would be at little risk, I would probably feel I was at great risk. But if you were instanced with ALGOMATIC I guess the situation would be reversed.

So that, to me, suggests loadout is all-important. You would be (presumably) optimised for killing another player, I would be in a much more PvE oriented loadout, good enough to escape but (regardless of skill differential) probably not tough enough to withstand a sustained battle.

However between you & ALGOMATIC I would guess you would be in similarly capable killing machines, and skill would become the important factor in terms of risk vs reward.

What do you think?

When applied to the BGS and Powerplay. The game I see. Youd have to be outfitted for both. You cant use one extreme in min maxing, and another extreme of min maxing here. In fact the min maxing like this is my eyes is not supposed to exist.

There is alot of utility modules being unused, we also know if you're just looking to PVP or fight and not get any hauling done on your own. You will fall behind. The goal here is to stop someone else progress. Not rack up a high Kill to Death ratio like call of duty. PVP is supposed to be impactful during these events. And its not.

So the PVP loadouts you're talking about between Algo and I. Would be the result of not being able to use some of those modules like a wake scanner and so forth.

This is why its hard to balance things like shields. They WOULD BE FINE, if we were playing the game correctly instead of min maxing without utilities.

The PVE and the PVP we see in the game not supposed to technically exist. Its de-evolved into META's and efficiency. Rather than interaction.

What I am trying to say is the play styles here would be merged in this case. There would still be META builds. But not in the extremes in one way or the other like we see now.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Fair enough, so what? Just ignore me.

Why do you want to tell me what to do?

I am hoping that by pointing that out to you, it might better the signal to noise ratio around the subject.

What you're expressing seems to be a common set of misunderstandings around these parts, so again, the community (and by extension the game) might benefit.

I don't think it's futile to appeal to that with you, am I wrong?
Are you just here to bloviate?

 

[Riverside]

When applied to the BGS and Powerplay. The game I see. Youd have to be outfitted for both. You cant use one extreme in min maxing, and another extreme of min maxing here. In fact the min maxing like this is my eyes is not supposed to exist.

There is alot of utility modules being unused, we also know if you're just looking to PVP or fight and not get any hauling done on your own. You will fall behind. The goal here is to stop someone else progress. Not rack up a high Kill to Death ratio like call of duty. PVP is supposed to be impactful during these events. And its not.

So the PVP loadouts you're talking about between Algo and I. Would be the result of not being able to use some of those modules like a wake scanner and so forth.

This is why its hard to balance things like shields. They WOULD BE FINE, if we were playing the game correctly instead of min maxing without utilities.

The PVE and the PVP we see in the game not supposed to technically exist. Its de-evolved into META's and efficiency. Rather than interaction.

What I am trying to say is the play styles here would be merged in this case. There would still be META builds. But not in the extremes in one way or the other like we see now.

If you haven't done so already stick your oar in on that proposal thread. It's died off a bit, mostly (imo) for want of productive input from the players that would actually use it.

Bear in mind what I said about 'selling' the idea of meaningful PvP. It needs to be something people will want to use, that others will not reasonably object to. You're always going to get a few unreasonable objections, but that's for Frontier to decide, if they read it.

Why do you want to tell me what to do?

I am hoping that by pointing that out to you, it might better the signal to noise ratio around the subject.

What you're expressing seems to be a common set of misunderstandings around these parts, so again, the community (and by extension the game) might benefit.

I don't think it's futile to appeal to that with you, am I wrong?
Are you just here to bloviate?

Yeah bored of this now, the moment has passed.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

If you haven't done so already stick your oar in on that proposal thread. It's died off a bit, mostly (imo) for want of productive input from the players that would actually use it.

Bear in mind what I said about 'selling' the idea of meaningful PvP. It needs to be something people will want to use, that others will not reasonably object to. You're always going to get a few unreasonable objections, but that's for Frontier to decide, if they read it.



Yeah bored of this now, the moment has passed.

Well its quite obvious people dont want that interaction or want to be stopped at all. They dont think they should be because they made the game this way and gave us those options.

So instead they try to layer another type of interaction. But they still get the flip a system being a "PVEER".

Not going to waste my time.

 

[Riverside]

Not going to waste my time.

I did not expect that, from you

This new one is closer to what you want than mine was, but because of that there are more hurdles to overcome on the PvE side. Swings & roundabouts.