One example does not a trend make. STO balances out Eve Online's example, I figure.
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One example does not a trend make. STO balances out Eve Online's example, I figure.
If you like multiplayer games fine by me but don't shove down that ideology upon others please.
I guess we loose Eve in this discussion as well. A space themed spreadsheet doesn't suggest 'well handled' either.
Seriously?
Totally.
No, I just do not sympathise with those that choose to behave like idiots either way.
Total players served, retained and stratospheric revenue earned be damned, eh?
I would be willing to bet that STO has more players across more platforms than Eve does. I'd be willing to settle, rhetorically, that they are even. But, population, doesn't have to mean well handled. Does it?
I'd still like to know if you understand what a lynch mob is.
Not being glib here - I honestly consider that characterization of community driven anti-logging efforts hyperbole at best.
Does it have anything to do with flying spaceships with guns on them?
I love PvP. Been doing PvP since games like Chaos and Spy vs Spy back in the days of the Speccy
My current PvP game is Fortnite. I'm a bit rubbish at it, my son makes me look like a complete nub, but its great fun.Perhaps your question was, why don't i like PvP in ED? I do and i don't. I enjoy duels. They can be fun, but that ties in with my first reason below:
1) Balance. There is none. For me to enjoy PvP there has to be a level playing field. Each combatant should have same chance of winning any encounter with the main deciding factor being skill, and perhaps a bit of luck. That's the sort of PvP I enjoy. I don't want to have to fly combat capable ships all the time in ED as i enjoy doing things other than combat. I know you can always run, but then, if the choice is run or die, then why bother in the first place? Then you are not engaging in PvP, you're just running. Might as well just avoid it by playing in PG/solo. I rarely carry goods, i'm not a trader, so not much of a target for PvP piracy either.
2) I bought ED to play an updated version of Frontier with coop with friends. I didn't buy it to PvP. There are much better games out there for PvP.
3) Time investment. Getting good at PvP requires time investment. I don't want to spend my time in ED gitting gud at PvP. I want to derp around in ED, go exploring, run missions, usually while drinking beer
I'd rather get good at PvP in other games. I don't have time to practice practice practice. It would stop me doing other things. I'm trying to git gud at Fortnite, there is only time in my life to git gud at one PvP game.... and even that is questionable. More like git not-completely-useless.4) Ships that I fly. My new fleet consists of 4 Cobra Mk3s and 6 Cobra Mk4s. The Cobra mk3 is a good runner, so in theory i can escaple most PvP encounters, but that's not PvP really, that's just running. The Cobra Mk4... well, i've one in PvP, but its not a great combat ship. I don't want to be forced into flying certain ships to survive PvP encounters, and as a said before, just running is not really enjoyable PvP for me. It adds nothing to the game.
I love PvP. Been doing PvP since games like Chaos and Spy vs Spy back in the days of the Speccy
Perhaps your question was, why don't i like PvP in ED? I do and i don't. I enjoy duels. They can be fun, but that ties in with my first reason below:
1) Balance. There is none. For me to enjoy PvP there has to be a level playing field. Each combatant should have same chance of winning any encounter with the main deciding factor being skill, and perhaps a bit of luck. That's the sort of PvP I enjoy. I don't want to have to fly combat capable ships all the time in ED as i enjoy doing things other than combat. I know you can always run, but then, if the choice is run or die, then why bother in the first place? Then you are not engaging in PvP, you're just running. Might as well just avoid it by playing in PG/solo. I rarely carry goods, i'm not a trader, so not much of a target for PvP piracy either.
2) I bought ED to play an updated version of Frontier with coop with friends. I didn't buy it to PvP. There are much better games out there for PvP.
3) Time investment. Getting good at PvP requires time investment. I don't want to spend my time in ED gitting gud at PvP. I want to derp around in ED, go exploring, run missions, usually while drinking beer
4) Ships that I fly. My new fleet consists of 4 Cobra Mk3s and 6 Cobra Mk4s. The Cobra mk3 is a good runner, so in theory i can escaple most PvP encounters, but that's not PvP really, that's just running. The Cobra Mk4... well, i've one in PvP, but its not a great combat ship. I don't want to be forced into flying certain ships to survive PvP encounters, and as a said before, just running is not really enjoyable PvP for me. It adds nothing to the game.
The run or die bit is what keeps it interesting for me
I agree on the loadout bit, I do okay but it's more complicated than it really needs to be with the different resistances & stuff, I like a good dilemma and configuring a ship provides that but it could stand to be a bit more transparent for the less committed.
The run or die bit is what keeps it interesting for me
I agree on the loadout bit, I do okay but it's more complicated than it really needs to be with the different resistances & stuff, I like a good dilemma and configuring a ship provides that but it could stand to be a bit more transparent for the less committed.
Yeah, i don't get that thought. If you are running you are not PvPing really. If you have 100% success rate its just an annoyance, and some will repeat interdict and sooner or later catch you in a mistake. If you have 0% success rate its just lost time and effort. If you have variable rate its either an annoyance or lost time and effort depending.
I'm sure you get some heart pumping action out of it, but i feel there are much better games for the old adenaline rush, so why waste my time waiting for that in ED when i can get it in other games if i want on demand?
And the run options for me are limited anyway. Take for example my Pirate Cobra Mk4. No room for ECM or PDTs on that. One utility slot is the wake scanner and the other is the cargo scanner. So, encounter with your typical ganker would go like this: grom missile, bye bye my ability to high wake. Then a round of rails or whatever to the ship, resulting in probably death from the first volley no matter how well engineered i am. There is no room for HRPs and MRPs, i need those slots for limpets and cargo space, otherwise its not much of a pirate ship.
There is zero win possible there for me, not even the option to escape. Even without grom missiles, then chance of me executing a high wake in a CM4 vs a gankmobile is slim unless they are really rubbish.
We've covered this ground before I think; the completionist feels they must have everything, crush every puzzle. Staying competitive in PvP is the problem there, the engineers are part of the problem but so are the Power Play perks & similar stuff. They all need to be sidegrades so it isn't compulsory for spontaneous (lobster) PvP, then they can just be there for variety.
I completely understand why some play alone (I do sometimes, I spent a few hours in solo earlier), or Co-op PvE (which is mostly what I do anyway), I quite enjoy semi-organised PvP (1-on-1 with someone that isn't super-serious about it all either) when I'm in a dedicated PvP ship, but the fights just take too long now so I can't really be bothered to keep trying to win.
If you know you are going to run, and plan to low wake there is some gameplay in that for me. Maybe not so much for my attacker, but they'll get their kicks if they catch me, if I get away I'll try to keep them occupied so others can get past. It's not something I'd want to do all the time though, just a bit of fun playing British Bulldog every so often, and piracy is just a way to make friends & meet new people, by surprise
But I understand why people really like PvP too, it can be satisfying to plan out a build & tweak it, to go into a battle unknown, and have it all go your way when it turns out you had a counter to everything they threw at you. I used to do a lot of sim-racing & PvP in ED has a lot of parallels with that. But like you I've been there, done that, I don't feel the need to be so competitive, I have nothing to prove to anyone else, no obligations other than to myself.
I don't need others the way I play, but they add to it.
I never played Eve, although I have friends who did. Not my kind of game, I just want to fly the ship (or drive the car etc), but I've heard & read so many awesome stories of battles over the years, it clearly has something big going for it.
I agree on the title, it's just a cheap jab at an easy target and I wrote in an earlier post that any activity is a minority in ED. You could just as easily ask 'why isn't exploration more popular?. Do you think that thread title would have gotten this many responses though?
I love PvP. Been doing PvP since games like Chaos and Spy vs Spy back in the days of the Speccy
Perhaps your question was, why don't i like PvP in ED? I do and i don't. I enjoy duels. They can be fun, but that ties in with my first reason below:
1) Balance. There is none. For me to enjoy PvP there has to be a level playing field. Each combatant should have same chance of winning any encounter with the main deciding factor being skill, and perhaps a bit of luck. That's the sort of PvP I enjoy. I don't want to have to fly combat capable ships all the time in ED as i enjoy doing things other than combat. I know you can always run, but then, if the choice is run or die, then why bother in the first place? Then you are not engaging in PvP, you're just running. Might as well just avoid it by playing in PG/solo. I rarely carry goods, i'm not a trader, so not much of a target for PvP piracy either.
2) I bought ED to play an updated version of Frontier with coop with friends. I didn't buy it to PvP. There are much better games out there for PvP.
3) Time investment. Getting good at PvP requires time investment. I don't want to spend my time in ED gitting gud at PvP. I want to derp around in ED, go exploring, run missions, usually while drinking beer
4) Ships that I fly. My new fleet consists of 4 Cobra Mk3s and 6 Cobra Mk4s. The Cobra mk3 is a good runner, so in theory i can escaple most PvP encounters, but that's not PvP really, that's just running. The Cobra Mk4... well, i've one in PvP, but its not a great combat ship. I don't want to be forced into flying certain ships to survive PvP encounters, and as a said before, just running is not really enjoyable PvP for me. It adds nothing to the game.
This is similar to my experience. I think it's a big part of the reason PvP lacks the mass appeal it could have had, in ED.
As The90skid wrote ED was never designed to differentiate between players and NPCs, when it comes to the game mechanics. Personally I like that idea, but for it to work it has to be front and center whenever new features are added.
If we consider the progression of a new player that plays exclusively in open, does not read forums or Redit and don't care if triangles are solid or hollow, they will naturally evolve into PvP runners.
That is the path of least resistance. It's the cost-benefit approach.
Learning the skill and outfitting needs to survive(run) a PvP attack, is relatively straight forward. The cost of effectively fighting back against an average PvP opponent, is huge. You essentially have to give up your cargo capacity, jump range, fuel scoop and SVR, for no apparent benefit. It's not efficient.
Players still do PvP, just because it's fun. That's a valid reason. It's the same reason players do cliff jumping in SRVs or canyon racing. It's ok, but not good enough for mass appeal.
If FD had kept their focus on the initial design idea from the beginning, things could have looked different.
What if?
- Instead of the SCB, we got a fuel scoop that stored a few shield charges each time you scooped?
- Instead of HRPs, we got reinforced cargo racks that added hull strength at the cost of weight?
- Instead of massakre type game play, we had NPC targets of all strength levels(from easy to far beyond what a single player could manage) and reward favoring single harder opponents over multiple easy targets.
Small changes like this would reduce the cost of being 'PvP ready' and naturally guide combat oriented players towards it.
If the fastest money makers i the game rewarded the same skill sett needed to handle PvP combat and the game play cost were lower, it would be more popular. Simple as that.
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As is often quoted here it says on the door "Play it your way" - it's not "Play it the way dictated by the few who dedicate all their time to being the best killers possible"
It doesn't only work in the favour of PvPers.
Explain how you play ED to engage in PvP? Do you sign up to do Powerplay task in OPEN protecting a location/ship/convoy, which other players on another Power sign up to attack said location/ship/convoy?
Do you maybe undertake a OPEN only mission to protect a location/ship/convoy in a fighter (thing CQC), holo-me'ing into the location and fighting other players who signed up to attack said location/ship/convoy?
Do you maybe undertake an OPEN only CG specifically offering PvP orientated combat scenarios?
Or do you just fly around interdicting folks at random in OPEN?
ie: I'm sure there would be far more PvP in ED if it actually offered/orchestrated it. But what we have at the moment is a bit of a minimal viable product version of PvP. But then again, after 3-4yrs, that seems to be the case with so very much of ED.
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I think quite a lot of your ideas have the potential to work well if the player population is high enough, with many traders (for example) trying to achieve a goal & others trying to prevent that goal - natural, emergent adversarial play. The idea with CGs & so in is to put a lot of players in one environment.
Now by & large this happens in the game, and it's fun to be on both sides. For the more accomplished pilot the challenge of catching a player is more satisfying than a much more predictable NPC, for the less experienced pilot the increased danger of being attacked by a real players is mitigated by learning situational awareness and defensive tactics as a step on the ladder towards full on combat, or because (as picommander describes well) they are playing to survive and thrive rather than to kill or be killed.
In the game, ime it works. Sometimes there are too many attackers, sometimes not enough. But reading about the game on here & other places, it comes across as certain death rather than safety in numbers. The problem is one of PR exaggerating the threat level (or overreacting to the perceived threat level rather than finding out the actual one). Why put my expensive assets in danger for the sake of some community goal in a distant system? So many avoid the danger by not instancing with the player attackers, or just by not going there at all (or not playing I suppose).
Now there are lots of ways to fix this, the traders, the developers & the attackers can all do something, and they probably all should. I think the devs do try to make these situations accessable (whether they do a good job is a matter of opinion of course), the traders could be more willing to actually give it a go, maybe in a cheaper ship if they are not sure how well their tough but expensive ship would stand up, because playing with others can be fun.
But to my mind, the attackers, in general don't encourage the traders to come & join in the fun, they actively discourage it. And so of course they don't come (in big numbers), there are fewer traders, so it's harder to hide in the confusion so each one is more likely to be attacked. Forcing traders to play in Open would just mean they either don't go there, or don't play at all.
Emergent play PvPers have a PR problem, but it is one that only really affects themselves. So maybe try to get along a little better with the traders, be more encouraging (as many of you are already) towards the players that are not so experienced in these adversarial situations. Be the gamekeeper or farmer managing their flock, not the selfish poacher. And if you find out about a jerk wreaking havoc on your farm, sort them out. Those trader types (like myself & Picommander) have a choice, you want us to play with you, but we don't need to play with you.
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