Hardware & Technical CH Throttle Pro Deadzones

[Cliché]

I bought one about 3 years ago and had to program 10 clicks (10% I think) deadzone in-game for the mini stick x and y axes. Not great in theory, but worked fine and I didn't really notice it.

Long story short, I had to get another and it required 63 clicks on the y-axis and 16 on the x-axis. I thought that was crazy, so I ordered a replacement. This one requires 48 clicks on the y-axis and 23 on the x-axis. I guess it's slightly better, but it still seems way out of line. I rechecked my original and it still only requires 10 clicks. This is after calibrating each stick in the CH control manager software. What happened to CH quality control?

The new throttles have date codes of 122017. The old stick is 212014.

I'm trying to decide whether to return both sticks and wait a few months and try one again, or buy one from another source at a higher cost, or if I should just live with the "better" one and only return one. I'd even consider switching out the mini stick, but I don't want to void the warranty. Luckily I'm out exploring so my old throttle will work for now.

Anyway, I'm curious about what in-game deadzone setting you need for the mini stick? If you need high settings, is it causing you any problems?

Btw, the y-axis down only needs a tiny deadzone, and I can always get the mini stick to return to zero with smaller deadzones if I give it a quick flick down, but I don't think I want try that on a high-g planet.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I bought one about 3 years ago and had to program 10 clicks (10% I think) deadzone in-game for the mini stick x and y axes. Not great in theory, but worked fine and I didn't really notice it.

Long story short, I had to get another and it required 63 clicks on the y-axis and 16 on the x-axis. I thought that was crazy, so I ordered a replacement. This one requires 48 clicks on the y-axis and 23 on the x-axis. I guess it's slightly better, but it still seems way out of line. I rechecked my original and it still only requires 10 clicks. This is after calibrating each stick in the CH control manager software. What happened to CH quality control?

A 10% deadzone would be about normal for the centring error on the ministicks, and I think I've set mine to ~20% on those two axes which makes thursters respond "better" for my tastes.

Calibrate the throttle using Windows tools (on an English Win10, searching for "joysticks" in the start menu should take you to the right place) and then try again. You could also try the CH Control Manager software, but that's unreliable in presenting the controller to the game and can under some circumstances lead to bluescreens.

 

[Non Grata]

Have a feeling you can reduce the required deadzone a bit by offsetting the stick when calibrating. You could google the below to see if you can find anything:

site:www.ch-hangar.com/forum/ ministick dead zone

 

[Cliché]

Calibrate the throttle using Windows tools (on an English Win10, searching for "joysticks" in the start menu should take you to the right place) and then try again. You could also try the CH Control Manager software, but that's unreliable in presenting the controller to the game and can under some circumstances lead to bluescreens.

I've been using their Control Manager software w/o any problems. The last time I tried the Windows calibration program it wasn't as useful, but I should probably give it another look.

Have a feeling you can reduce the required deadzone a bit by offsetting the stick when calibrating.

I already need to offset the stick to get full range, but I didn't think of trying to offset for the poor zeroing. Probably too busy being shocked at how bad it was. I'll give that a go before I return it. Hopefully CH will step up and fix my old one.

Thanks.

 

[Para Handy]

I don't use control manager at all for my CHPro stuff (Throttle, Fighterstick, Pedals plus Yoke for flight sims) - I had to give a bit of a dead-zone for the throttle mini-joystick in E D bindings but was OK.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I've been using their Control Manager software w/o any problems.

So did I until it started bluescreening and that turned out to be a long-standing issue that no reinstallation of the software could fix; at that point I just removed it for good and don't miss much of it. It's a matter of luck I guess

 

[Cliché]

I don't use control manager at all for my CHPro stuff (Throttle, Fighterstick, Pedals plus Yoke for flight sims) - I had to give a bit of a dead-zone for the throttle mini-joystick in E D bindings but was OK.

Are you using something else? Are you sure you are getting full range?

If I don't calibrate the throttle, I will not get full speed out of the throttle and thrusters. The throttle may only reach 90% of maximum speed, the the thrusters on the mini stick may only reach 50-75%.

To test, come to a complete stop and then use the keyboard keys, wsad etc., and record your maximum speed r/l/u/d/f/b. Then try it again using the analog controls and see if you reach the same speeds. I think a lot of people that use analog axes for throttle and thrusters, w/o properly calibrating them, would be surprised how much speed they are losing.

The same probably holds true for roll and pitch rates on the stick, but I don't know how to check that like with speed - I suppose a stop watch and some reference point (I'll have to try that vs. keyboard control).

 

[Para Handy]

Are you using something else? Are you sure you are getting full range?

...........

I just calibrate using the Windows game controller calibration. I have no issues with the controllers at all. I am both an electronics engineer and have been flight simming since forever so I know what I am talking about.

The only issue CHPro Throttle has is the difficulty in precision centre for the mini-joystick axes - so that is more sensitive to dead-zone setting. I'd rather have that dead-zone requirement than have the buggy, old-hat control manager running. There again long-time flight sim use means I like to keep running processes at a low level so rubbish like that is just superfluous.

FYI - your controller outputs a signal which the windows software scales to give full-scale positive and negative numbers - this scaling is what the game controller calibration routine sets - if you are not getting full-scale then it is probably / possibly because the control manager is conflicting with this windows process. Uninstall the control manager, run the windows calibration and then test again.

 

[Cliché]

After spending hours last night in the CH Control Manager software, running dozens of calibrations, I can confirm it is buggy. Often, after calibration, it would just halve the range on one mini stick axis, or the other, or both, or I couldn't get full range out of the throttle axis. And the new throttle behaves differently than the old one during calibration, which makes me think the old one had more problems with it than I originally thought. The old one also wouldn't calibrate properly with the Windows game controller software.

I finally got a nice calibration on the new unit, with full range and full resolution, with smallish deadzones, and a generally good feeling with light thruster inputs around zero. But if I ever need to make changes again, I think I'll pull off the CH software and see how the new throttle works with the Windows program.

Thanks for the tips and suggestions.


PS. after contacting CH under warranty with a throttle problem, they said the problem was with Win 10 AE and I'd have to wait for Microsoft to fix it. After waiting more than a year, I reinstalled Win 7 and still had problems. Bought a new throttle that works, so that proves the old throttle actually was the problem. But it's now out of warranty (and I'd opened it to look for a broken damaged wire or something) and they won't service it. I'll never buy another CH product. I just hope somebody else comes out with something decent if I ever need to replace it again.

 

[Morbad]

The Pro Throttle mini-sticks are fairly hit or miss. I've seen all sorts of behavior from them, though none of the four samples I've owned had a major deadzone issue.

PS. after contacting CH under warranty with a throttle problem, they said the problem was with Win 10 AE and I'd have to wait for Microsoft to fix it. After waiting more than a year, I reinstalled Win 7 and still had problems. Bought a new throttle that works, so that proves the old throttle actually was the problem. But it's now out of warranty (and I'd opened it to look for a broken damaged wire or something) and they won't service it. I'll never buy another CH product. I just hope somebody else comes out with something decent if I ever need to replace it again.

"Warranty void if removed" labels often aren't enforceable.

Anyway, even if your part is out of warranty, the ministick is not terribly expensive to replace...none of the parts are really.

 

[Shadowdancer]

The Pro Throttle mini-sticks are fairly hit or miss. I've seen all sorts of behavior from them, though none of the four samples I've owned had a major deadzone issue.

It'd surprise me if there were major series issues with those components, they're the same that are used on the PS4 pads, and probably also the XBone ones (except the gamepads use a version with a plastic pin, while the throttle has one of metal). Centring precision isn't amazing, but it's not better or worse than competing products.

 

[Morbad]

It'd surprise me if there were major series issues with those components, they're the same that are used on the PS4 pads, and probably also the XBone ones (except the gamepads use a version with a plastic pin, while the throttle has one of metal). Centring precision isn't amazing, but it's not better or worse than competing products.

Most of the issues I've seen have been with the factory calibration/zeroing. It's all over the place, from sample to sample, even when the sticks feel and respond identically once the calibration has been accounted for.

 

[DanTheMan]

I use the CH software all the time with a custom script, at the current time there are no BSOD issues and the calibration in CH Manager is perfect.
So I wonder why you are having a problem. I have seen it BSOD with CHDriver.sys as the cause in the past, and every time it has been after an MS OS update.

 

[Shadowdancer]

So I wonder why you are having a problem. I have seen it BSOD with CHDriver.sys as the cause in the past, and every time it has been after an MS OS update.

According to search results, those crashes go way back to at least Win7 times, and it's not like the CH software had been updated since. I've had it working fine for years, and suddenly it started acting up after the throttle got momentarily disconnected; at that point reinstalling Control Manager did not fix it any more, and I had to ditch it for good in favour of Windows onboard tools. I don't think MS can be blamed for that one, a driver bluescreening is on the vendor, and a driver that's been unmaintained for years in spite of obvious issues doubly so.

 

[Morbad]

Largely fixed the most annoying part about my CH Pro Throttle ministicks by dismantling them and boring out the holes the stick protrudes from until they were wide enough for the full range of motion to be registered. I also packed the ministick gimbals with Nyogel 767A damping grease.

While this won't fix a defective stick that needs a huge deadzone, it will dramatically increase control on most samples.

According to search results, those crashes go way back to at least Win7 times, and it's not like the CH software had been updated since. I've had it working fine for years, and suddenly it started acting up after the throttle got momentarily disconnected; at that point reinstalling Control Manager did not fix it any more, and I had to ditch it for good in favour of Windows onboard tools. I don't think MS can be blamed for that one, a driver bluescreening is on the vendor, and a driver that's been unmaintained for years in spite of obvious issues doubly so.

If the driver hasn't changed, then MS is absolutely to blame.

Anyway, I'd uninstall any CH software; make sure you have the "show nonpresent devices" environment variable enabled; unplug all of your controllers, go to device manager, expand the CH devices, the Human Interface Device stuff, and the USB stuff...then manually uninstall everything that's greyed out and not obviously unrelated to your controllers. Then, restart your system, reinstall the CH software, plug your controllers back in and recalibrate as necessary (with the CH software), in that order.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I also packed the ministick gimbals with Nyogel 767A damping grease.

Slowing down an already weak centring mechanism that's supposed to run dry with grease… yeah, that's smrt.

The driver hasn't changed since Windows 7 days, and it's always been bluescreening under some conditions. It's not a new "feature" under Windows 10.

 

[Morbad]

Slowing down an already weak centring mechanism that's supposed to run dry with grease… yeah, that's smrt.

I like the feel of it. Still centers fine (though I mostly handle that manually), and makes fine adjustments easier as well as cushions the severe click of the ministick button press.

Doesn't matter what it's "supposed" to run with. I did blast the crap out of it with degreaser/contact cleaner before I put the new grease in there, so I shouldn't have any viscosity issues from mixing greases.

The driver hasn't changed since Windows 7 days, and it's always been bluescreening under some conditions. It's not a new "feature" under Windows 10.

I've never seen the driver throw an error on any of the half dozen systems I've used with my CH stuff over the last 4-5 years.

If it's a software issue with something that was working before, isn't working now, and issues started with a momentary disconnection, I strongly suspect it's a device ID conflict or a corrupt registry entry related to the devices' calibration, either of which should go away if the devices are completely uninstalled.

 

[Morbad]

Looking at it again, I think the damping grease has either negligible impact, or maybe even improves centering.

Off/direct mode, no calibration (either in Windows or CMCC...clean install of the device), and no deadzone:

[video=youtube;xZTfZxJ98pU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZTfZxJ98pU&[/video]

It doesn't always return to perfect center when released after thumbing up, but it's closer than most samples, and that was there long before I modded anything. Centering speed is fine, despite the gimbal being completely submerged in 767A.

 

[Morbad]

Resurrecting this thread as I have some new experiences to share on the topic...

Sample mentioned above, my third CH Pro Throttle is now out of commission. The throttle axis was always a little jittery, but it was never really an issue until I started mapping axes for the FSS...even replacing the pot entirely and soldering the wires to it did not resolve this. Anyway, the issue that killed the stick was the ministick, which started to exhibit extreme jitter on the right side of the Y axis, before intermittently inputting hard right inputs on it's own. Thought about replacing the thumbstick, but APEM switched distributors a while back and I haven't been able to find the same parts...could probably use one of APEMs better ministicks, but they cost as much as the entire throttle and something else is clearly wrong with the throttle axis. Going to completely dismantle it, probably replace the main cable (which has suffered abrasion from rubbing against the corner of the handle arpatue it passes through before connecting to the main PCB) and clean/debride the ministick pots and gimbal, then wash everything. Hopefully that's enough to restore it to working order.

In the mean time, I'm back to using my previous sample which I kept around as a backup. I refurbed it and moved the bored-out ministick plate from my other one to this one. It's now working quite acceptably, except for the occasional ghost press on a few of the most heavily used buttons. This sample has more than 4000 hours of use on it and I'm not sure how long it will hold out, so I've been trying to find an alternative.

I have a Thrustmaster TWCS that works fairly well, but I really prefer the ministick under the thumb rather than under the index finger. The new Virpil MongoosT50CM Throttle is really tempting, but it's got the same placement issue as the TWCS (index finger ministick) and I'm hesitant to drop $400 on something I may not like.

I ended up ordering another CH Pro Throttle, and immediately sent it back as the throttle range was too limited and not centered on the physical range of travel, while the ministick would not reliably center and also had a very limited range issue. The sample was probably well within the range of normal for these parts, but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay 130 dollars for a replacement that isn't any better than my four year old backup.

Sent that sample back and the replacement just arrived. Opened unboxed it, moved the throttle...heard clicking that I now know is reflective of the pot arm bumping the pots wiring. No way is that sample going to last more than six months before it has to be dismantled and the wiring rerouted and reattached.

Both of the new samples were from the low to mid 28xxx serial numbers and date stamped with 302017 (week 30 of 2017). I would recommend avoiding this batch.

Pretty miffed at this point. I've had five of these over the last five years and they've all had issues, more so with the newer samples.

To sum it up...

- Sample #1: Purchased mid 2014. Returned shortly after because of the limited range of the ministick that I thought had to have been a defect, but in hindsight was probably totally normal for the product.

- Sample #2: Purchased late 2014. Annoyed by the same issue as above, but kept it, and used it in ED and a few flight sims heavily for the next couple of years, before deciding to get a full backup set. This is the sample I'm using right now.

- Sample #3: Purchased sometime in late 2016. Much better ministick ranging, but a noticeable hardware/firmware deadzone on the mini-stick and a jittery throttle axis. Overall slightly better than the previous sample, so I keep it and make it my primary, until it crapped out recently.

- Sample #4. Purchased last week. Similar issues as 1 and 2 originally had, except an even worse ministick range. Returned for replacement.

- Sample #5. Replacement for #4, arrived today. Not even going to bother plugging it in because I can feel and hear a serious assembly defect when I slide the throttle and I should not have to repair a brand new part. Returning it for a refund.

I desperately want a different throttle that has an analog mini-stick under the thumb. However the only other, non-fully custom, options besides the CH Pro Throttle are the Logitech X56, which I've tried and is not going to be an improvement, and an aftermarket modification for the Thrustmaster Warthog's throttle, which I'm not sure I'll like and will cost a Warthog throttle + sixty bucks and immediately void the warranty.

At this point, I'm left building something mostly from scratch, which I am capable of muddling through, but really not looking forward to...or learning to like an index finger ministick, which is not much better. I'll hold out as long as I can with what I've currently got, but I may have to swap to my TWCS and develop some index finger dexterity/muscle memory before I drop serious money on a Virpil.

If anyone one has any suggestions or ideas for things I may have missed, I'd love to hear them. My budget for a throttle that does what I want it to is probably anything under 1000 USD...but for that price I'd expect utter perfection and for it to last for at least 10k hours of heavy use without any noticeable degradation.

 

[Shadowdancer]

The ministick on the throttle will always have a limited range until you calibrate it, simply from the plastic k-n-o-b (seriosly, censor? REALLY?) and the collar on the case limiting travel.

You can increase mechanical range by removing or trimming down the , that may also give you slightly higher resolution, but god only knows how the electronics do that (it's a fairly decent 10bit ADC for analogue inputs, but output is "only" 8bit).

You can get rotary hall effect sensors as drop-in replacement for "standard" pots by the way.