PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Why can't you guys realize that such a thing simply won't work? No matter how often people repeat the fact that the default setting of many routers make playing in Open impossible, with not even a hint to the player what's going on? Many routers require the user to actively set port forwarding or UPNP enabled. There's no way or rule or law in the world that can possibly force you to make these settings with the result you can (I guess virtually everyone could) simply fly 'officially' in Open without ever seeing some humans, not even in CG areas and without a single blocking?

tl;dr
You can happily fly solo in Open and there's nothing FD can do about. What now.
Shocked?

Quite valid point.

So this performance increase should be not too high.
And it will at least combat private group godmode undermining. As well as move Solo from performance meta.
It will have revitalise Open much, exploits or no.

It would take concious effort and decision to make yourself play solo with benefits of Open. While leaving slight guilt cause of cheating. And this should not be combated.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

In every game, where salt mining opportunity is present, there would be a miner. Percentage is the same.

Sure, but talking about toxicity which isn't quite the same thing. Salt mining mainly occurs when a game provides opportunity to grief, which is largely when you mix PvP and PvE in the same game (but FD does nicely address this by offering modes, if only more people would take advantage of them!). But even pure PvE games can offer opportunties to grief, and i think i did mention that with the example of Ark PvE servers and people putting down pillars to stop others building near resource sites.

And tell me an instance of any other game where PvP is neglected by developers as much as in ED, while full volume of mechanics is present.

Completely irrelevant to the point i was making. There would still be toxicity in ED even if FD focused 100% on PvP. c.f: EvE.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Hence the suggestion for a very limited number of dedicated OPEN PvP only CGs.

And likewise have a very limited number of Powerplay tasks that are likewise OPEN PvP only, OR, for example splitting the results of them so 50% of the results are accrued from OPEN results and 50% from no-OPEN results.

In these ways, then OPEN gets some dedicated PvP gameplay or at least a fair shout at (Powerplay) outcomes. And players simply play the game they prefer - PvP orientated or PvE orientated.

Good job you said Open with PvP there, otherwise i was already getting ideas of teaming up with a friend in a PG and farming such a CG, possibly with their spare account. But hey, probably could do that from Open anyway. Just drop out of SC in Open with a friend, relog, the wake would be gone, and would be free to kill the dummy account over and over.

Certainly got no objection to PvP based CGs though, although i'm not sure about how they could work and not be exploitable.

 

[Imo]

"Why is pvp not popular in Elite Dangerous?"

Because with the engineers it went totally out of balance and is just no fair to play.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Sure, but talking about toxicity which isn't quite the same thing. Salt mining mainly occurs when a game provides opportunity to grief, which is largely when you mix PvP and PvE in the same game (but FD does nicely address this by offering modes, if only more people would take advantage of them!). But even pure PvE games can offer opportunties to grief, and i think i did mention that with the example of Ark PvE servers and people putting down pillars to stop others building near resource sites.



Completely irrelevant to the point i was making. There would still be toxicity in ED even if FD focused 100% on PvP. c.f: EvE.

Already talked about this previously in this thread. This whole situation reminds me of Matrix, where first versions were full of bliss but majority of people could not take it because there were no natural strife present.

And EvE was designed to be the way it is.

 

[Riverside]

Just for the "science":

From now on (mark the date) I'll fly consequently in Open with no port forwarding and UPND off (the default state of my router, FritzBox 7390).

Just to stress test this theory. When ever I meet the first human commander in the next days, month or whatever I'll report back and openly admit that I was wrong (in fact I'm actually and honestly a bit curious).

Deal?

Honestly, that's how I play the game. No filters, just get on with it in Open. If I want to visit an engineer say, and I'm not up for a scrap I'll go when it's quiet, or while a CGs is on etc. But I'm not very social, and don't seek out other players, so depending on what you want to do YMMV. Start with a really fast, cheap ship like a Courier, something you can easily afford to lose, then use that to test the level of risk. Once you are more comfortable you can use planning to stay safe. Or just equip for PvP & go find a fight, both have their merits


But I don't make a rule of it, if I can't be bothered with the hassle I'll just play in Solo for a bit.

 

[CMDR EDGEL0RD]

Just for the "science":

From now on (mark the date) I'll fly consequently in Open with no port forwarding and UPND off (the default state of my router, FritzBox 7390).

Just to stress test this theory. When ever I meet the first human commander in the next days, month or whatever I'll report back and openly admit that I was wrong (in fact I'm actually and honestly a bit curious).

Deal?

edit:

Please do me a favor and inform me if your network settings are looking like this (port forwarding and UPNP state) *and* you still meet players in Open.

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/AMTxopR

Thanks.

Already answered to that. It is a valid factor, but would not outweight all positives of Open buff.

 

[Prole 217]

Already answered to that. It is a valid factor, but would not outweight all positives of Open buff.

Ok, Im not sure about all this router stuff. Are you all saying its possible with the default router settings, not messing around with them at all, you can be in open and never see another player regardless of them actually being there?
If that is true then open only bonuses, other than the bonus of the fight etc, could be obtained with no risk factor?
That is strange to say the least.

 

[Han_Zen]

Already answered to that. It is a valid factor, but would not outweight all positives of Open buff.

But pico will also get that buff, even If he is esentially in Solo.
More advanced users can also make their own ‘PG’ in Open, by setting a list of accepted IPs for P2P.

If you want to reward PvP, it has to be done with content. The modes are useless tools for this.

 

[Riverside]

Ok, Im not sure about all this router stuff. Are you all saying its possible with the default router settings, not messing around with them at all, you can be in open and never see another player regardless of them actually being there?
If that is true then open only bonuses, other than the bonus of the fight etc, could be obtained with no risk factor?
That is strange to say the least.

Yes, and it's beyond the scope of the game, it cannot be mitigated (other than by some EULA blurb, say). Just as with Combat Logging (alt-F4), the game cannot prevent it happening, only remove the benefit of doing it. Router rules are mitigated by having the game offer black & whitelists, so no router trickery is required.

 

[Prole 217]

Yes, and it's beyond the scope of the game, it cannot be mitigated (other than by some EULA blurb, say). Just as with Combat Logging (alt-F4), the game cannot prevent it happening, only remove the benefit of doing it. Router rules are mitigated by having the game offer black & whitelists, so no router trickery is required.

Well doesnt that make the whole bonus for open a dead on arival idea?
Would there be some way to track actual pvp action instead? I am guessing that could be exploited as well but surely its a better idea than a blanket bonus for a mode where there are so many ways to game it

 

[Riverside]

Well doesnt that make the whole bonus for open a dead on arival idea?
Would there be some way to track actual pvp action instead? I am guessing that could be exploited as well but surely its a better idea than a blanket bonus for a mode where there are so many ways to game it

A mode bonus would be DOA yes, a PvP bonus no. If You google 'Meaningful PvP Proposal' you should find my thread in the suggestions section of this forum that attempts to lay out the framework of a new layer of manipulation that would be influenced only by PvP actions. There have been other suggestion threads too along similar lines.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

A mode bonus would be DOA yes, a PvP bonus no. If You google 'Meaningful PvP Proposal' you should find my thread in the suggestions section of this forum that attempts to lay out the framework of a new layer of manipulation that would be influenced only by PvP actions. There have been other suggestion threads too along similar lines.

I’ve never seen someone pimp their own threads so much.

 

[Riverside]

That's what I did as well for many month. But at some point this play style starts to reveal its true face, and this looks pretty ridiculous. If avoiding other players in Open only would be a decent challenge... For someone who doesn't like CGs and other community events (the Thargoids are basically nothing else) the Engineers are the only potential risk. But from my limited experience (maybe I'm just lucky and usually instanced with the more peaceful guys, who knows?) it's not so bad as it looks after reading too much forum drama.

The second idea isn't available to me, not as long my Commander is still in Ironman state.
But with my former build and even this one in the first 2 weeks I wasn't that paranoid.

My apologies picommander, I was under the impression you were predominantly a Solo player from our previous conversations. Like you, I have played the game for so long that CGs and other hotspots don't hold the same interest as they did when I was less experienced, but I continue to play in Open because in Solo I'm the biggest badass around, in Open I'm just another pilot.

Ironman & PvP don't go together all that well, but I've lost more ships to asteroids than to other players

 

[Riverside]

I’ve never seen someone pimp their own threads so much.

It's easier than repeating it all over & over, to just refer to where it's been discussed in more depth than I care to repeat. Perhaps one day you will have a few of your own to refer back to

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You could at least provide a link instead of just telling someone to ‘Google it.’ I mean, really dude. C’mon.

 

[Riverside]

You could at least provide a link instead of just telling someone to ‘Google it.’ I mean, really dude. C’mon.

Your attitude (and a few others in this thread) is precisely why I haven't provided a link. If you want to find them put in the effort. They have been linked plenty of times before, in this thread alone. Hence your cheap jibe.

 

[Riverside]

Not even that. As far as I know (don't quote me on that, I'm no expert and probably horribly outdated on that matter) port forwarding and UPNP are considered potential security holes by some (many?). I don't know if that's true/still true or not but such concerns do exist and leave it even more doubtful that any port of the EULA could ever demand an action that potentially could harm my security settings.

I'm not the expert in these things, mostly I'm recalling things Asp Explorer has said the CLogging proposal thread among others. He really is a networking guru and quite imaginative with it. I'm just glad he's friendly

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Your attitude (and a few others in this thread) is precisely why I haven't provided a link. If you want to find them put in the effort. They have been linked plenty of times before, in this thread alone. Hence your cheap jibe.

What’s my attitude?

 

[Riverside]

What’s my attitude?

Have a read back through the thread & it should be clear. So much would be clearer if you just read the stuff people write. This is not a chatroom, it's a forum. It stores a record of all the previous posts (subject to moderation) so anyone can read them & form their own opinions.