PvP PvP Meta of the Month Club

[jasonbarron]

I agree with this. People can moan and whine about people using shield tanks, packhounds or whatever, saying it isn't skillful, but at the end of the day there are consequences to dying that some people just can't afford to have put upon them, even if they have enough. Most people don't do PvP for sport and use broken weapons just to survive against those who do.
Like how I use packhounds and fly a Cutter: My enjoyment comes from pitting my enemy against unwinnable odds. You can say what you want about gimbals, packhounds, 7,000MJ shields and reverse FA-off, you use whatever strategy that wins you the fight. Only things I agree that are bad are healing beams and reverb torps, to a degree.

Now I just let the god shield, packhound+healing reversky flying vette/cutter variety of pilot just reverse right out of the instance. I had a member of the 13th legion in a Cutter that fits that description interdict me yesterday and then pull that maneuver, and against my better judgment I obliged his low(no) skill tactics...right up until he turned crimes on the second it became apparent that my PA's were actually threatening him. I love the concept of "unwinnable odds" but that's just lame. Expecting people to chase you around to stay in the fight is boring.

 

[sewerratuk]

Now I just let the god shield, packhound+healing reversky flying vette/cutter variety of pilot just reverse right out of the instance. I had a member of the 13th legion in a Cutter that fits that description interdict me yesterday and then pull that maneuver, and against my better judgment I obliged his low(no) skill tactics...right up until he turned crimes on the second it became apparent that my PA's were actually threatening him. I love the concept of "unwinnable odds" but that's just lame. Expecting people to chase you around to stay in the fight is boring.

I agree its poor tactics to use if you are the interdictor, however if you are the interdictee then its down to the aggressor to overcome whatever defensive measures are used against them.

 

[Avvie Rayne]

Can I understand your point as "Things favor me should stay as they are, things don't favor me should be nerfed, to a degree. Skill is irrelevant in PVP so balances should focus on how to make the unskilled win against the skilled."?

No.

 

[Globusdiablo]

...Seems FD is trying to tell us to run when shield is dropped.

But from a practical point of view this makes sense though, doesn't it? If shields are an indicator of the tides of war, why not try to retreat and regroup with remaining ressources intact? Live to fight another day?

 

[Frenotx]

But from a practical point of view this makes sense though, doesn't it? If shields are an indicator of the tides of war, why not try to retreat and regroup with remaining ressources intact? Live to fight another day?

Largely because that throws out at large set is mechanics. Subsystem targeting? Who cares, unless you're using flechette launchers. Fine aim? Don't need it- shield bubbles are big. Hull hardness and piercing mechanics? Totally irrelevant- all weapons do their full damage (before resistance) vs. shields. Module damage, malfunctions, and repairs? Never heard of 'em. Actual threat of dying? Lol what you can die in this game? Missiles and their counter systems? Why would I being those if they suck against shields and I can replace their counter systems with more shield boosters.

 

[Truesilver]

But from a practical point of view this makes sense though, doesn't it? If shields are an indicator of the tides of war, why not try to retreat and regroup with remaining ressources intact? Live to fight another day?

Because PvP thrives where there is both variety and balance between the varieties.

Largely because that throws out at large set is mechanics. Subsystem targeting? Who cares, unless you're using flechette launchers. Fine aim? Don't need it- shield bubbles are big. Hull hardness and piercing mechanics? Totally irrelevant- all weapons do their full damage (before resistance) vs. shields. Module damage, malfunctions, and repairs? Never heard of 'em. Actual threat of dying? Lol what you can die in this game? Missiles and their counter systems? Why would I being those if they suck against shields and I can replace their counter systems with more shield boosters.

Exactly.

There are four defensive build categories in ED:

A. Base shield

B. SCB

C. Hybrid bi-weave over hull tank

D. Pure hull tank

Obviously there are subsets within those, such as whether something in category 'A' or 'B' has a bi-weave or a prismatic, or how many SCB's.

But currently any comparable combat ship that can be and is weighted towards shield, if correctly flown and not self-nerfed, is almost crazily OP compared to items 'C' and 'D'. The list of things that a shield-orientated ship can bring to the fight to wreck a 'C' or 'D' ship via 'I win' buttons of varying skill requirements (some requiring none) is so long and so oft-repeated that I won't set it out again.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Because PvP thrives where there is both variety and balance between the varieties.

Are you suggesting that PvP thrives within Elite: Dangerous?

Any kind of solid reasoning should suggest that when you throw newbies and pros alike into the same fish bowl (Open mode), there should be an easily understandable and obtainable defense strategy for the newbies. Or they will get hammered and move to other modes or other games. Hence shields as the logical goto gameplay mechanic. Nothing wrong with that logic.

...There are four defensive build categories in ED:

A. Base shield

B. SCB

C. Hybrid bi-weave over hull tank

D. Pure hull tank

Obviously there are subsets within those, such as whether something in category 'A' or 'B' has a bi-weave or a prismatic, or how many SCB's.

But currently any comparable combat ship that can be and is weighted towards shield, if correctly flown and not self-nerfed, is almost crazily OP compared to items 'C' and 'D'. The list of things that a shield-orientated ship can bring to the fight to wreck a 'C' or 'D' ship via 'I win' buttons of varying skill requirements (some requiring none) is so long and so oft-repeated that I won't set it out again.

And this is the rub of course.

How to balance beginner, intermediate and pro PvP in the same fish bowl. Evidence suggests that it can't be done. Elite: Dangerous is as fragmented as ever, lots of vitriol between the different communities. Not just the modes, but within the PvP community as well.

Playing/grinding to gain credits to buy the gear everyone had access to was the basic premise of Elite: Dangerous at release. All good. Then came Engineers and added a second grind wall to PvP, making it practically unobtainable for most casual PvPers. I certainly can't be bothered. Real life is more pressing.

So while you and others argue that shields are OP, I would argue that shields are the only thing holding a non-balanced PvP mode (Open) together. Barely.

I have a lot of respect for dedicated PvPers that do the time and the crime. But if they in turn can't respect the beginner and intermediate PvPer with other priorities than the grind and the Git Gud, it all turns into autocratic bashing which honestly doesn't strengthen the already fractured PvP community.

But perhaps it is indeed inherent to the nature of PvPers as I tried to discuss earlier (but was shut down).

 

[Frenotx]

Are you suggesting that PvP thrives within Elite: Dangerous?

Any kind of solid reasoning should suggest that when you throw newbies and pros alike into the same fish bowl (Open mode), there should be an easily understandable and obtainable defense strategy for the newbies. Or they will get hammered and move to other modes or other games. Hence shields as the logical goto gameplay mechanic. Nothing wrong with that logic.




And this is the rub of course.

How to balance beginner, intermediate and pro PvP in the same fish bowl. Evidence suggests that it can't be done. Elite: Dangerous is as fragmented as ever, lots of vitriol between the different communities. Not just the modes, but within the PvP community as well.

Playing/grinding to gain credits to buy the gear everyone had access to was the basic premise of Elite: Dangerous at release. All good. Then came Engineers and added a second grind wall to PvP, making it practically unobtainable for most casual PvPers. I certainly can't be bothered. Real life is more pressing.

So while you and others argue that shields are OP, I would argue that shields are the only thing holding a non-balanced PvP mode (Open) together. Barely.

I have a lot of respect for dedicated PvPers that do the time and the crime. But if they in turn can't respect the beginner and intermediate PvPer with other priorities than the grind and the Git Gud, it all turns into autocratic bashing which honestly doesn't strengthen the already fractured PvP community.

But perhaps it is indeed inherent to the nature of PvPers as I tried to discuss earlier (but was shut down).

You say that engineering is an inaccessible grind wall for casual players, and then insinuate that mega-shields are the only thing that can protect them against people that have jumped through the engineering hoops.
...
You do realize that the mega-shields that people complain about require engineering, and thus are unavailable to these aforementioned unengineered casual players? Meanwhile, the engineered players DO have access to these mega-shields, giving them yet another advantage over the aforementioned casual players. The absurd strength of engineered shields is one of the things driving a wedge between new / casual players and ones who have invested more time, not something that's giving some amount of parity.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Are you suggesting that PvP thrives within Elite: Dangerous?

Actually PVP is thriving in Elite. And hopefully if the new open only PP changes take effect, PVP will grow even more.

Want proof PVP is thriving? Join GCI or UCC or PVP Hub discords. They are servers that have many many pvpers on them.

 

[Globusdiablo]

You say that engineering is an inaccessible grind wall for casual players, and then insinuate that mega-shields are the only thing that can protect them against people that have jumped through the engineering hoops.
...
You do realize that the mega-shields that people complain about require engineering, and thus are unavailable to these aforementioned unengineered casual players? Meanwhile, the engineered players DO have access to these mega-shields, giving them yet another advantage over the aforementioned casual players. The absurd strength of engineered shields is one of the things driving a wedge between new / casual players and ones who have invested more time, not something that's giving some amount of parity.

I will put to you that the level of grind that you are refering to is limited to a staggering small amount of the player base. You (and maybe a few dozen other commanders) seem to be chasing über grind builds that most of the PvP (and PvE for that matter) community will never aspire to reach. You obviously have the time and inclination, but the more grind layers FD adds, the bigger the disparity becomes.

As there are absolutely no gameplay mechanics in the game to balance PvP encounters, it is and will continue to be, a complete mess.

FD created CQC in the feeble hope that PvPers would gather there for balanced combat. They obviously have no clue how PvPers think.

Personally, Engineers was the worst thing they could possibly have introduced to Open mode (and the game in general). The lack of balance in Elite: Dangerous has killed PvP for me.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Personally, Engineers was the worst thing they could possibly have introduced to Open mode (and the game in general). The lack of balance in Elite: Dangerous has killed PvP for me.

Maybe instead of complaining about the current state of the game, you should try and adapt to it? The game doesn't conform to you, you conform to the game.

With the current 3.0 engineering system, you can have a pvp capable ship fully engineered, in a few days. Probably 40 hours work would suffice. And the reward is worth it.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Maybe instead of complaining about the current state of the game, you should try and adapt to it? The game doesn't conform to you, you conform to the game.

Aand back to tried and tested Git gud rhetoric. *sigh*

Yes you are right of course. We should all take time off work and grind the grind and git the gud. /sarcasm

No.

If every time someone utters concern, all you have is "git gud"? Really? Sad.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Aand back to tried and tested Git gud rhetoric. *sigh*

Yes you are right of course. We should all take time off work and grind the grind and git the gud. /sarcasm

No.

If every time someone utters concern, all you have is "git gud"? Really? Sad.

I never used that term. All I am saying is that you have a solution, you just choose not to pursue it.

 

[Globusdiablo]

I never used that term. All I am saying is that you have a solution, you just choose not to pursue it.

Fair enough. I won't quarrel with you.

 

[Frenotx]

Maybe instead of complaining about the current state of the game, you should try and adapt to it? The game doesn't conform to you, you conform to the game.

With the current 3.0 engineering system, you can have a pvp capable ship fully engineered, in a few days. Probably 40 hours work would suffice. And the reward is worth it.

I prefer to adapt, but also continue to push for better balance. Engineering may be more accessible now, but it's still a balance trainwreck.

 

[Han_Zen]

Maybe instead of complaining about the current state of the game, you should try and adapt to it? The game doesn't conform to you, you conform to the game.

With the current 3.0 engineering system, you can have a pvp capable ship fully engineered, in a few days. Probably 40 hours work would suffice. And the reward is worth it.

3.0 is ok. Building a maxed ship is now a limited task.
The mai issue now, is that we end up with dull ships after doing it. They are over defended and rely on counter builds to take out other over defended oponents.

Better than removing engineering, is in my opinion to remove all defense modules(not regular armour), all special effects and premium amo.

This would reduce grind, TTK and the gap between combat and multi-role builds.

 

[Frenotx]

I will put to you that the level of grind that you are refering to is limited to a staggering small amount of the player base. You (and maybe a few dozen other commanders) seem to be chasing über grind builds that most of the PvP (and PvE for that matter) community will never aspire to reach. You obviously have the time and inclination, but the more grind layers FD adds, the bigger the disparity becomes.

As there are absolutely no gameplay mechanics in the game to balance PvP encounters, it is and will continue to be, a complete mess.

FD created CQC in the feeble hope that PvPers would gather there for balanced combat. They obviously have no clue how PvPers think.

Personally, Engineers was the worst thing they could possibly have introduced to Open mode (and the game in general). The lack of balance in Elite: Dangerous has killed PvP for me.

Which of my ships are these "über grind builds" that you accuse me of chasing?

 

[Riverside]

Which of my ships are these "über grind builds" that you accuse me of chasing?

Any that include powerplay modules maybe?

I'm not a fan of the term 'grind', and if someone wants that optimal loadout they should be prepared to put the effort in (and be rewarded if they do) but the gate for that first prismatic shield generator is something like a month of real time (not in-game time) isn't it? Seems to me there is an assumption that other players will cynically join the various powers to get the goodies. The time required for Engineering means little compared to that.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Any that include powerplay modules maybe?

I'm not a fan of the term 'grind', and if someone wants that optimal loadout they should be prepared to put the effort in (and be rewarded if they do) but the gate for that first prismatic shield generator is something like a month of real time (not in-game time) isn't it? Seems to me there is an assumption that other players will cynically join the various powers to get the goodies. The time required for Engineering means little compared to that.

No.

 

[Slange Lands]

Maybe you guys should start a private PvP and PvE (private open) mode where applicants must agree to a Strict Code of Conduct? You could even outlaw engineering and fancy ammo. You may actually be able to do something about clogging? Then you would be playing with only honorable killers and bona fide pirates.