Open Only Power Play, PvP, PvE and Community Goals : A fair proposal

[tolm]

Okay, there's been a ton of threads kicked off from the whole Open Only Power Play proposal. Thus far I have been against it but I have a suggestion ... two modes:

Open Power Play
Okay, so I've objected thus far but let's say I accept the "Power Play is, by definition, a Combative PvP endeavour" and we make it Open Only. Let's do this in a dedicated Open Power Play game mode, replacing the existing Open game mode. This mode can then become the Combative PvP playground for future PvP only content, matchmaking Combat Zones, player faction war events, etc.

Open Community
As a foil to the above, add a new Open Community mode. This mode is for PvE - players working together against the (NPC) galaxy or against others in the community via non-combative means. Community Goals will be locked to this mode only (or, at least, not available in Open Power Play). Clue's in the name - it's the community working together to achieve something so PvP griefing should not be able to impede progress. This mode then becomes the Collaborative PvE playground for future PvE only content, storylines, wing missions, etc.

This way, PvP players get Power Play and PvE players get Community Goals - that seems fair to me. Both have notionally similar mechanisms and could be set up to provide similar rewards, so that no-one "loses out" from that perspective. You simply choose your play mode but get access to comparable rewards. Both will also affect the shared universe across all modes: eg. Community Goals resulting in new mega ships and Power Play shifting the factions in control of certain locations.

The other advantage to this ... it'll become really obvious to FDev as to how many people are actively playing PvP vs PvE simply by who is logging into each mode, and they can use that information to know where to invest based on either (1) supporting/rewards the existing player base and (2) where do they need to encourage more people to play.

 

[Evil Flanker]

Powerplay should always have been in open, if you have any qualms about thinking powerplay has anything to do with PvP and combat, I'd suggest looking at the ethos of a few of the factions, noetebly Hudson and ALD, also the expansion systems are all about PvP for genuine powerplay players....

Open PvE mode, only if it's a separate galaxy, for example back to the powerplay example and how it's abused by people playing it in solo, the same thing is possible when trying to affect a specific system. That is...

You state "players working together against the (NPC) galaxy or against others in the community via non-combative means" - For example, you go to change the power of the ruling faction of a system by participating in a war or other covert oparation, who is going to oppose it?, NPC's? - NPC's can oppose nothing against any half decent commander in any ship, that only leaves players who might have an interest in that system, what you're suggesting is the same as when PP players play solo to avoid getting destroyed when fortifying systems, that the opposition are trying to undermine, they can fortify in solo and you can do nothing to prevent it, no matter what you do, I can see the same issue arising with what you propose.

If it was a separate galaxy I would have no issues with those who wish to avoid combatative encounters having their own little world but as it is it's prone to abuse as it is now in PP.

 

[tolm]

Powerplay should always have been in open, if you have any qualms about thinking powerplay has anything to do with PvP and combat, I'd suggest looking at the ethos of a few of the factions, noetebly Hudson and ALD, also the expansion systems are all about PvP for genuine powerplay players....

Open PvE mode, only if it's a separate galaxy, for example back to the powerplay example and how it's abused by people playing it in solo, the same thing is possible when trying to affect a specific system. That is...

You state "players working together against the (NPC) galaxy or against others in the community via non-combative means" - For example, you go to change the power of the ruling faction of a system by participating in a war or other covert oparation, who is going to oppose it?, NPC's? - NPC's can oppose nothing against any half decent commander in any ship, that only leaves players who might have an interest in that system, what you're suggesting is the same as when PP players play solo to avoid getting destroyed when fortifying systems, that the opposition are trying to undermine, they can fortify in solo and you can do nothing to prevent it, no matter what you do, I can see the same issue arising with what you propose.

If it was a separate galaxy I would have no issues with those who wish to avoid combatative encounters having their own little world but as it is it's prone to abuse as it is now in PP.

I think it’s more a case of those wanting Combative PvP having there own little world since my proposed Open Community mode and the existing Private Group and Solo Play modes could all happily co-exist over the same galaxy. Players could take different sides in wars or support different factions to “play” the BGS, take missions or contribute to Community Goals across those three modes quite happily. It’s only the PvP cries of “but I must be able to shoot you” that cause friction.

So, agreed. An Open Power Play galaxy, separate from the main game, and an Open Community galaxy that is shared with the Private Group and Solo modes.

 

[wrmiller]

This has potential...

 

[tolm]

This has potential...

Thanks! Seemed to me to be a way of giving PvE players a way to be "part of something bigger" whilst allowing Power Play to evolve into the Combative PvP theatre many wish it to be - with both providing equivalent rewards.

 

[Commander Morelenmir]

I cannot believe that some autocratic mod is actively locking these threads! Honestly Frontier, just put up a sticky that says 'Suggest features that we want you to have, or else...' at least then you would be honest. Why even ask for suggestions if you are going to lock the thread? How long until this one is impossible to comment on as well?

Okay, period--while I still have the chance to comment. Not all your players like attacking other humans. Not all your players want to be attacked by other humans--gankers, griefers, bullies call it what you will. Some of us have played Elite for literally the last thirty-four years for the trading, the ship progression and some anti-pirate action. Critically anti-bot pirate action. As soon as you bring in PvP you open the door for malicious behaviour. Intimidation. People preferentially going after human players when there is a star system full of bots they could have attacked instead. Eve is already unplayable for this very reason. Stick your head up, try to do something positive in a multiplayer collaborative way and a gang of malicious bully boys starts hounding you out of the game. Literally they do not stop until you stop playing and its tacitly approved. There are monster who hang out in the starting systems of ED and only attack brand new players--I suffered this until I managed to log on when this particular monster was still in bed and left that area behind.

Open PvE needs to happen. There are clearly people who want this and a sizable number. I suggest you address their interest otherwise we will quite literally stop playing. We will also stop buying your premium 'seasons'. Locking the thread and pretending our voices do not matter will not stop us feeling the way we do. It will just stop us playing your game.

And for the record, before a mod decides my voice isn't worth hearing and needs to be locked away--tolm, I agree with your suggestion entirely. If I could give you two rep points I would!!!

 

[StuartGT]

Players could take different sides in wars or support different factions to “play” the BGS

So... indirect Player vs Player conflicts like what happens now? Sounds like a PvP game mode.

CGs promote PvP directly (competitive CGs; rewards based on contribution ranking) and indirectly too (CG systems are a focal point for CMDRs to challenge/restrict the CG's goal).

 

[Andovar]

What if I don't want any part of powerplay, but still want to PvP?

Basically this sounds like just another request for an open-pve mode.
Which I have nothing against personally, but wondering how this would work from a gameplay perspective? What happens when another cmdr is in my line of fire and I pull the trigger? Do my lasers pass through their ship? Do they hit it but do no damage?
Same goes for collisions.
Either one would require reworking the game engine to apply these effects. Plus the end result could feel quite gamey and silly.

 

[tolm]

What if I don't want any part of powerplay, but still want to PvP?

Basically this sounds like just another request for an open-pve mode.
Which I have nothing against personally, but wondering how this would work from a gameplay perspective? What happens when another cmdr is in my line of fire and I pull the trigger? Do my lasers pass through their ship? Do they hit it but do no damage?
Same goes for collisions.
Either one would require reworking the game engine to apply these effects. Plus the end result could feel quite gamey and silly.

Oh, it’s absolutely a request for an Open PvE - wasn’t trying to hide that at all! Yes, negation of damage would be needed and I would suggest weapons simply not firing if targeting or leading a target on another player to help with “immersion’ issues.

As for those wanting to PvP? Yup - you can use the Open Power Play mode and simply not do the Power Play, safe in the knowledge that everyone there is “up for” some PvP. Likewise there’s no requirement on anyone who wants PvE to have to do Community Goals, just that’s the mode they are available in if you do.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

I'm not convinced taking something away from one mode in response to taking away something else from another is helpful.
This doesn't have to be an us and them situation.

I definitely want an Open PvE mode though, I just don't think it needs any exclusive feature other than the damage modifier needed to make it work.

 

[tolm]

I'm not convinced taking something away from one mode in response to taking away something else from another is helpful.
This doesn't have to be an us and them situation.

I definitely want an Open PvE mode though, I just don't think it needs any exclusive feature other than the damage modifier needed to make it work.

Whilst I agree in principle that the simple inclusion of such a “Open Community” mode would allow people to undertake community goals without threat of PvP, I just felt that - as a method of balance - of we’re to keep a PvP centric activity like Power Play our of PvE modes then we should also keep PvE activities, such as CGs, out of PvP. To be fair.

 

[Andovar]

Yes, negation of damage would be needed and I would suggest weapons simply not firing if targeting or leading a target on another player to help with “immersion’ issues.

negating weapon damage is the easier part of the equation.
figuring out what to do with collisions where things get sketchy.

 

[Evil Flanker]

So, agreed. An Open Power Play galaxy, separate from the main game, and an Open Community galaxy that is shared with the Private Group and Solo modes.

Urmmm I don't know where you got that from, but that would be a terrible idea, it's fine like it is now, people need to read the description of the game they're buying is all I can see.. The Elite galaxy contains allsorts and people need to be accepting of that, once you accept it, it becomes fun and poses challenges and risks that would be missing elsewhere.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

"or against others in the community by non-cambative means."

No. If you want to oppose a group of the community you must go all in or not at all. No mediocre half-way opposing so the cap is so minimal and low that only NPCs can exceed that cap.

That said, don't replace open. In this proposal, offering two extra modes (being powerplay and community goals) would be way more appropiate. PP would be in one mode exclusively and CGs with the set ruleset in another. However, open as we have it now will not be replaced.

But then again, we don't need more modes. There is a way for players to work together in CGs in "non-combative" ways: PG and SOLO.

Thereis no difference to Open Community. The ruleset would be similar and we wouldn't need an arbitrary gamerule that disables Player to player damage.

I ensure you this will encourage griefing even more. I can block you to a landing pad or continously ram you to an asteorid or drawalot of pirate NPCs at you and there is nothing you can do about it. Let alone kill stealing in CZs and RES.

 

[Mars Starcruiser]

I think background simulation should be open only because of reasons above and people who say otherwise probably exploit solo.

Not sure what anyones affraid of though. Barely see anyone as it is and been playing open this entire time. Seriously, its not as dangerous as people make it out to be. Might see a ganker try and backstab me in CZ... I jump out easily since he has too little means of trapping me, just barely a surprise, I repair, run back... and never see him again because I end up in whole new instance.

Totally not wow or EVE at all, and I’ve never seen a game that favored escaping a fight more than this one. Really have to stick around and want it, for pvp to happen, or get caught by surprise ram. But like I said, if you respawn, likely a whole new instance and you may never see that player again until super cruise.

 

[Factabulous]

Hooray for necros! \o/

 

[Mars Starcruiser]

Sorry, guess this is old. Good bye

 

[Lestat]

who wants a

 

[Mars Starcruiser]

Got some angry orchard in the fridge

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

All I see is your standard "I want PvP-less open" request with the thick-rim glasses, plastic nose, and comical mustache.