Powerplay should not be made Open-only. Here's why... [EDITED]

[Genar-Hofoen]

Why should i read all the thread? I ve had enough reading your same post twice in these forums. You clearly dont like broken promices and you clearly believe that all modes should be equal due to some dead post that you found?
Well let me tell you that the equal modes promise wasnt the first one broken and i will also tell you that modes were never equal.

Whos cmdr o9? Is that your other name in your reality?

lawl.

*plonk*

 

[Cobra1984]

Power play is currently broken and played primary in Solo PG by a tiny group of players. It is essentially a dead mechanic because of this.

And almost no one in Solo or PG or even Open would care about PP except that suddenly it has been drawn into the old Open vs Solo debate. Now suddenly everyone is lining up behind old battle lines and very few are seeing the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that humans, like all particles in the universe, will always follow the path of least resistance. This is a basic principle of physics and human psychology. Solo/PG is easier, passive, non-competitive, and yet this is also wholly in opposition to the spirit of competition that PP was supposed to support. So is it really surprising that the current "least resistance" path for PP is being in a defecto death-like coma?

Without direct competition, PP in Solo/PG is like playing chess while opponents pieces are invisible. PP needs to be Open for the mechanics to have any meaning, just like chess pieces need to be visible for chess to have any meaning.

This is the strongest argument I have seen so far on either side of this topic.

It's a little disappointing to me that Sandro has not made a case as strong as this in favour of the proposed change.

 

[Sterling MH]

Your analogy is incorrect.

They need to stop seeing this as a MOBA and try an analogy with a noncontact sport. Nobody complains that you're not allowed to bring a gun to the basketball match so the fact that someone else has an inherent advantage of height cant be encountered.

As some PvPers trying to silence any dissent have said: equal doesn't mean they are all the same, and if solo PP is more effective than Open PP, then that is just the way it is. If you find this unconvincing as to why PP should not be made open only, then try to figure out why it didn't work on why all three modes are equal isn't the same as "the same".

 

[Perseus]

Is that
1. because you do but want to pretend
2. because you are incapable
?

Incapable, I'm afraid. Just as I said.
I suspect English might not be your first language, so maybe I'm missing your intended meanings. Or they might be so profound that they are beyond my comprehension.
I have no doubt about your passion for this subject, however.
I still say: YES to development and NO to stagnation.
Any chance you could address the points I made before you snipped my post?

 

[Sterling MH]

This is the strongest argument I have seen so far on either side of this topic.

But since none of that argument improves PP from my POV, I can see that the best your side offers is a whole crate load of nothing burgers.

Incapable, I'm afraid. Just as I said.

Never mind, then. I hope you get better.

 

[Genus]

Power play is currently broken and played primary in Solo PG by a tiny group of players. It is essentially a dead mechanic because of this.

And almost no one in Solo or PG or even Open would care about PP except that suddenly it has been drawn into the old Open vs Solo debate. Now suddenly everyone is lining up behind old battle lines and very few are seeing the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that humans, like all particles in the universe, will always follow the path of least resistance. This is a basic principle of physics and human psychology. Solo/PG is easier, passive, non-competitive, and yet this is also wholly in opposition to the spirit of competition that PP was supposed to support. So is it really surprising that the current "least resistance" path for PP is being in a defecto death-like coma?

Without direct competition, PP in Solo/PG is like playing chess while opponents pieces are invisible. PP needs to be Open for the mechanics to have any meaning, just like chess pieces need to be visible for chess to have any meaning.

Strange, you wait eons for a chess metaphor, then two come along at once.

I believe your analogy is actually why it's a bad idea....

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...lass-citizen?p=6707473&viewfull=1#post6707473

What you are advocating, is two separate games based on player choice alone. Ergo, the singular outcome is to have two BGS' (more chance of one of them working) and splitting the game to Open and Solo with Groups.

This will lead to entropy, and is therefore daft.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Strange, you wait eons for a chess metaphor, then two come along at once.

I believe your analogy is actually why it's a bad idea....

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...lass-citizen?p=6707473&viewfull=1#post6707473

What you are advocating, is two separate games.

Indeed, and it's a bad analogy anyway, as the chess pieces are the Powers, the pieces being moved are PvE tokens, ultimately, and are being moved by players seen and unseen. And due to the P2P nature of E: D, it can be made such that players can still be unseen, no matter what client connectivity mode is being used.

 

[kofeyh]

Indeed, and it's a bad analogy anyway, as the chess pieces are the Powers, the pieces being moved are PvE tokens, ultimately, and are being moved by players seen and unseen. And due to the P2P nature of E: D, it can be made such that players can still be unseen, no matter what client connectivity mode is being used.

Chess doesn't usually include tokens. Do you mean pawns? Because if you are going to mock someone, at least be accurate. Unless you are referring to alternate pieces unusual chess variants can use.

Presumably you meant to try and asert a superior understanding. It doesn't help your cause, either way

Powers are kings and queens; well, minor factions are probably more queens, but I digress. We are the pawns. Sacrificial in nature. Frontier included AI as pawns to make up the numbers and ensure undermining (for example) would function across modes.

Honestly I don't care at this point. Folks just want to be right and win arguments and what ostensibly happens to the game seems to be less important.

Again, if the developer is unable to progress changes, even with consultation, then that should be a huge concern for the future of the game, it's growth and the ability of the developer to solve the issues they've been asked to address.

 

[vanya234]

Indeed, and it's a bad analogy anyway, as the chess pieces are the Powers, the pieces being moved are PvE tokens, ultimately, and are being moved by players seen and unseen. And due to the P2P nature of E: D, it can be made such that players can still be unseen, no matter what client connectivity mode is being used.

Instancing isn't that bad you can still find opposing players in system.

If frontier decide that a token moving race doesn't make for engaging gameplay then why shouldn't they change it if that's what most players want? The point, that's been stated in this thread already, is that you can't engage with other players directly if people are doing PP in solo. You're just sitting in system watching the counters go up with nobody there. PP was billed as a way to engage players directly. PP in solo doesn't allow for that becuase, as was stated above, players will always find the path of least resistance ie hauling merits in solo.

I'm having trouble understanding why people are so upset about this. Yes they're proposing to take away powerplay from solo. But wasn't it always a PvP focused feature? Why should it matter?

 

[Cobra1984]

Power play is currently broken and played primary in Solo PG by a tiny group of players. It is essentially a dead mechanic because of this.

And almost no one in Solo or PG or even Open would care about PP except that suddenly it has been drawn into the old Open vs Solo debate. Now suddenly everyone is lining up behind old battle lines and very few are seeing the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that humans, like all particles in the universe, will always follow the path of least resistance. This is a basic principle of physics and human psychology. Solo/PG is easier, passive, non-competitive, and yet this is also wholly in opposition to the spirit of competition that PP was supposed to support. So is it really surprising that the current "least resistance" path for PP is being in a defecto death-like coma?

Without direct competition, PP in Solo/PG is like playing chess while opponents pieces are invisible. PP needs to be Open for the mechanics to have any meaning, just like chess pieces need to be visible for chess to have any meaning.

This remains the strongest argument I have seen on either side.

 

[Sterling MH]

This remains the strongest argument I have seen on either side.

And I find it holds no merit. Kinda shows how empty the argument on your side is, really.

Chess doesn't usually include tokens.

Yes it does. Its called "the ranking system". I only score 3900, but I have really bad positional play.

 

[Robert Maynard]

.... then why shouldn't they change it if that's what most players want?

True - however as there is no requirement to own the game to create a forum account and that the total number of forum users is small in relation to the number of franchise units sold, simply asking forum users does not necessarily give an accurate picture of what "most players want".

The method used last time Frontier wanted to find out what the player-base wanted was an official poll - not on the forums. We'll see if they do that again. Arguably this topic is hotter than the last one polled.

 

[Genus]

Indeed, and it's a bad analogy anyway, as the chess pieces are the Powers, the pieces being moved are PvE tokens, ultimately, and are being moved by players seen and unseen. And due to the P2P nature of E: D, it can be made such that players can still be unseen, no matter what client connectivity mode is being used.

Yes, indeed. But what you're doing is talking about cybernetic open systems relationships.

Which also just flew over the heads of the Designers.

As for players, just get more stealth troops. Same for everyone and what Squadrons are for.

 

[Sterling MH]

.".. then why shouldn't they change it if that's what most players want?"
True - however as there is no requirement to own the game to create a forum account and that the total number of forum users is small in relation to the number of franchise units sold, simply asking forum users does not necessarily give an accurate picture of what "most players want".

Not to mention that we have no evidence that this IS what most players want. I don't. But I dont pretend to speak for most of the playerbase either.

 

[kofeyh]

Not to mention that we have no evidence that this IS what most players want. I don't. But I dont pretend to speak for most of the playerbase either.

I want to believe the developer has at least some understanding of that. They are not going to have recommended this because hell why not.

Sandy is a bit gung-ho, granted, but even so. If there are genuine and fundamental concerns sufficient to drive this, then I think more consideration than "Sod off m8" is probably warranted.

 

[Genus]

Chess doesn't usually include tokens. Do you mean pawns?

He means the chess pieces are the outcomes of the player activity, whatever that activity is and how many participate in whatever mode.

If anything is invisible, it's the bit FD never think about. Outcomes are called such as they are planned for, affected, but not guaranteed. Like an ad going viral, you may want it to, but if it does or not is up to the potential audience for your product. Or in this case, group or individual action to move a chess piece.

As such it is a terrible analogy, and one I've used before in exactly this fashion to highlight how little understanding the Designers have over the difference between Closed (two player driven chess) and Open (ecosystem driven not chess) Systems Theory. It's like experiencing vertigo.

Now FD are making exactly the same set of errors by even suggesting all this.

 

[vanya234]

Not to mention that we have no evidence that this IS what most players want. I don't. But I dont pretend to speak for most of the playerbase either.

Ouch a bit of snark there eh? Feeling some feelings I guess

No one knows what the majority of players want but the assumption is, since fdev have proposed this publicly, is that fdev have data on what the majority of players do want and this might be it. Also it looks like, from my point of view, that the general sentiment of elite players on here/YouTube/Reddit is for pp to be open only. But I guess we'll see.

 

[Sterling MH]

I want to believe

And that means nothing. Want to believe anything you want. Crystal healers and flattearthers do so all the time. But this is irrelevant to what is happening in reality.

Ouch a bit of snark there eh? Feeling some feelings I guess

Struck a nerve I see, otherwise that would not have come to your mind there.

No one knows what the majority of players want

Uh, where were you when someone claimed what most players wanted, then?

...

Oh, that's where you were... Odd. Split personality?

 

[vanya234]

And that means nothing. Want to believe anything you want. Crystal healers and flattearthers do so all the time. But this is irrelevant to what is happening in reality.



Struck a nerve I see, otherwise that would not have come to your mind there.

So smug yeesh.

So, are you trying to argue that the developer has no understanding of what players want? I'm confused here

And that means nothing. Want to believe anything you want. Crystal healers and flattearthers do so all the time. But this is irrelevant to what is happening in reality.



Struck a nerve I see, otherwise that would not have come to your mind there.



Uh, where were you when someone claimed what most players wanted, then?

Oh, that's where you were... Odd. Split personality?

Stop snipping posts to suit yourself and cutting my argument out.

Edit: also it would be appreciated if we could focus on the content of the discussion and you could refrain from ad hominem attacks please thanks

 

[kofeyh]

And that means nothing. Want to believe anything you want. Crystal healers and flattearthers do so all the time. But this is irrelevant to what is happening in reality.



Struck a nerve I see, otherwise that would not have come to your mind there.



Uh, where were you when someone claimed what most players wanted, then?

My statement stands. The developer would be irresponsible to recommend this change without input data and reasons.

I said I want to believe, because I cannot know them all in the absence of them all being provided.

That has nothing to do with faith healers. It's a statement that the developer would not even be going near this with a 5000 foot pole ordinarily. It's a hell of an adminission, lset alone recommendation.

Try taking a step back. For someone against open power play, you're rather good at attacking. Actually did you want to wing up some time, AI wouldn't stand a chance.