Reflections On Playing Other Games.

[Ralph Vargr]

After playing our host game, after breaks, I have played several other games in the interim. I'm posting this here, because I'm sure it would be moved anyway.

First thing I noticed: As I am a "spacegame" addict (not sim, not arcade), Elite's first person perspective, art, sound, etc are the tops. What the *other* games have is content, and story.

Workshops that focus on a single product tend to be better tuned to the fans. Not necessarily better games, but better feedback and response.

Elite is now only one of several lines that Frontier produces, and it shows. The passion is gone.

Additionally, other games have had years to work out their bugs. Here is the prime example:

EVE is fifteen years old, and it still has more players online at it's daily lows, I would say, than Elite has at it's max participation periods. The fans have waited through fifteen years of the game for things to get fixed, and content added. It crashes a lot less than elite. It's crafting and exploration systems are superior. It's mining pays off. It has a genuine risk/reward trade system that is player controlled. It has way better social connections. It has player agency. There are a bewildering number of play options, and ship/fittings to try.

But, players are entirely in a merciless, Darwinian struggle at all times. I was gatecamped (ganked), for no reason, today. No argument for Open can convince me that players would not do the same if Elite was open-only.

It's "hardcore". Your losses are very, very real in time, and money, both ingame, and out. I flew with insurance, and plenty of rebuy. It did not make up for having to find everything needed to make my ship again, as I only got cash, not the ship and it's fittings back. Sound like Engineering? Travel is deadly dull, and slow. Money rules all, as EVE is now a freemium, pay-to-win game (when your character dies, you need to rebuy all the implants, for example).

Elite is a far more humane experience, for all it's flaws. It's biggest flaw is the shared background. If someone could convince the Space Loaches to split the game, or put in a PvP flag, much of the frustration would ebb. It still needs content, but that fifteen year-old example has exactly what Elite needs (content, and stability). The second issue is the network architecture, and the server crashes. No, I do not have even a GED in networking, but Elite's servers crash a lot. This Sunday, for example.

Elite could take away every other space game's lunch, if Frontier was willing to spend the money and the time. It would be an "evergreen" product, generating cash flow.

The sad thing is, the lure of the freemium model might be the only thing that convinces Frontier to make those investments.

Must eat more comfort food, now.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Got lots of +1's, no replies.

Must mean I am completely wrong, as usual.

 

[Stealthie]

Kind of random but, bear with me...

As a fan of space games, THE most intense feeling of isolation and self-reliance that I've ever got from a space game has been from Kerbal Space Program.

You're in the process of putting a station in orbit around Kerbin, you launch the first payload containing, say, couple of Kerbals, a Control Room, a power generator and some kind of orbital tug, you get it into it's intended orbit and then... you wait.

You have to swap back to the KSC, put together another rocket containing more bits of your station, launch it into orbit and then wait for it to rendezvous with your first launch.

At that point, you go to work, detaching all the rockets, using the tug to dock segments of the station together, building something that feels like it could provide a habitat for living things.
And, if you've screwed anything up, it's back to the drawing board and do it all again.

The feeling of satisfaction that you get from successfully completing something that is, in fact, fairly straightforward is incredible.
When a station comes out of a planet's orbital shadow, the solar panels start generating leccy, charging the station's batteries and the various life-support and scientific systems (depending on what mod's you're using) come on line - so you know your Kerbals aren't doomed and they'll be able to do useful stuff- it's an incredible feeling of achievement in the face of adversity.

And that's a pretty straightforward thing to do.
Try doing the same thing in orbit around one of kerbol's more distant planets and you're talking about planning years ahead, making launches, firing ships off into deep space and then going and building/launching more ships in the hope that they're all going to meet up in orbit around their target years in the future.

So what?

Well, I reckon ED could do with an injection of that kind of adversity.

I know it's the future and our ships are supposed to be amazingly competent but, as a result, ED often lacks that "out on a limb" feeling and it also means that the things we do achieve in ED seem trivial.

Ideally, I guess it might have been nice if the ships in ED weren't quite so powerful so that simply getting around the galaxy successfully became rewarding.
I doubt people would take kindly to the sort of mass-nerfing that would now require so I guess the alternative would be for FDev to dream up new challenges that our ships are barely capable of achieving.

Fundamentally, I think the ships in ED are much too good and they make the rest of the stuff we have to do in-game seem trivial.
If it required more thought, more effort and, perhaps, a bit of luck to do stuff in ED it'd make the things we do in the game feel more significant.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I very much doubt the passion for ED has gone from Braben. However, he is now in charge of a rapidly growing company with multiple franchises, no longer just a dev shop for other publishers, and there a probably lots of demands on his time meaning he can't give ED the attention he would like.

As for being wrong, you can't be wrong, as all you did was state an opinion. Opinions are your own but others have different opinions. You get your +1s from people who agree with you. You can write whatever tripe you want on the forums and there will always be people who agree with you. That's the problem with the rep button, it reinforces your belief that you are right because other people agree with you without giving reasons. Same as Facebook with its like button, there have been studies done on it.

At the end of the day, either you enjoy the game or you don't. Its fine. I presume you are at thousands of hours in the game. There seems to be an expectation among some fans that despite having hundreds or thousands of hours in game, getting bored of it is some sort of failing on the part of the devs, when to my mind its completely backwards. One you have even tens of hours in game, you already have your money's worth. There have been many good games, that i have thoroughly enjoyed, that i haven't even reached 10s of hours with. Nothing wrong with them, just i played them to the extent i wanted and then shelved them.

ED has given me well in excess of 2000 hours, and if i didn't play for it a single hour more, its still been one of the best purchases i've ever made in terms of hours vs price.

 

[DaggerSnake]

I very much doubt the passion for ED has gone from Braben. However, he is now in charge of a rapidly growing company with multiple franchises, no longer just a dev shop for other publishers, and there a probably lots of demands on his time meaning he can't give ED the attention he would like.

As for being wrong, you can't be wrong, as all you did was state an opinion. Opinions are your own but others have different opinions. You get your +1s from people who agree with you. You can write whatever tripe you want on the forums and there will always be people who agree with you. That's the problem with the rep button, it reinforces your belief that you are right because other people agree with you without giving reasons. Same as Facebook with its like button, there have been studies done on it.

At the end of the day, either you enjoy the game or you don't. Its fine. I presume you are at thousands of hours in the game. There seems to be an expectation among some fans that despite having hundreds or thousands of hours in game, getting bored of it is some sort of failing on the part of the devs, when to my mind its completely backwards. One you have even tens of hours in game, you already have your money's worth. There have been many good games, that i have thoroughly enjoyed, that i haven't even reached 10s of hours with. Nothing wrong with them, just i played them to the extent i wanted and then shelved them.

ED has given me well in excess of 2000 hours, and if i didn't play for it a single hour more, its still been one of the best purchases i've ever made in terms of hours vs price.

you got a +1 because I agree with you

 

[metatheurgist]

Kind of random but, bear with me...

As a fan of space games, THE most intense feeling of isolation and self-reliance that I've ever got from a space game has been from Kerbal Space Program.

You're in the process of putting a station in orbit around Kerbin, you launch the first payload containing, say, couple of Kerbals, a Control Room, a power generator and some kind of orbital tug, you get it into it's intended orbit and then... you wait.

You have to swap back to the KSC, put together another rocket containing more bits of your station, launch it into orbit and then wait for it to rendezvous with your first launch.

At that point, you go to work, detaching all the rockets, using the tug to dock segments of the station together, building something that feels like it could provide a habitat for living things.
And, if you've screwed anything up, it's back to the drawing board and do it all again.

The feeling of satisfaction that you get from successfully completing something that is, in fact, fairly straightforward is incredible.
When a station comes out of a planet's orbital shadow, the solar panels start generating leccy, charging the station's batteries and the various life-support and scientific systems (depending on what mod's you're using) come on line - so you know your Kerbals aren't doomed and they'll be able to do useful stuff- it's an incredible feeling of achievement in the face of adversity.

And that's a pretty straightforward thing to do.
Try doing the same thing in orbit around one of kerbol's more distant planets and you're talking about planning years ahead, making launches, firing ships off into deep space and then going and building/launching more ships in the hope that they're all going to meet up in orbit around their target years in the future.

So what?

Well, I reckon ED could do with an injection of that kind of adversity.

I know it's the future and our ships are supposed to be amazingly competent but, as a result, ED often lacks that "out on a limb" feeling and it also means that the things we do achieve in ED seem trivial.

Ideally, I guess it might have been nice if the ships in ED weren't quite so powerful so that simply getting around the galaxy successfully became rewarding.
I doubt people would take kindly to the sort of mass-nerfing that would now require so I guess the alternative would be for FDev to dream up new challenges that our ships are barely capable of achieving.

Fundamentally, I think the ships in ED are much too good and they make the rest of the stuff we have to do in-game seem trivial.
If it required more thought, more effort and, perhaps, a bit of luck to do stuff in ED it'd make the things we do in the game feel more significant.

That's the problem though. A lot of the things I want that make the game more believable and harder to digest are things that make another group shout "Mah immershun!" immediately followed by comments about boredom and fun-spoiling. It doesn't help that FD isn't sticking to the original precepts of the game and are wavering all over the place with their design goals.

We have the best, 1:1, most scientifically accurate galaxy modelled in a video game. And on top of that we have the most illogical, unbelievable simulation of crime, economics, demographics and politics. It's like someone designed the most exquisite dinner set then proceed to serve vomit on it.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

you got a +1 because I agree with you

Damn you!

Repped you back! Take that!

It's like someone designed the most exquisite dinner set then proceed to serve vomit on it.

That sort of kink goes down well in certain circles....

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Kind of random but, bear with me...

As a fan of space games, THE most intense feeling of isolation and self-reliance that I've ever got from a space game has been from Kerbal Space Program.

You're in the process of putting a station in orbit around Kerbin, you launch the first payload containing, say, couple of Kerbals, a Control Room, a power generator and some kind of orbital tug, you get it into it's intended orbit and then... you wait.

You have to swap back to the KSC, put together another rocket containing more bits of your station, launch it into orbit and then wait for it to rendezvous with your first launch.

At that point, you go to work, detaching all the rockets, using the tug to dock segments of the station together, building something that feels like it could provide a habitat for living things.
And, if you've screwed anything up, it's back to the drawing board and do it all again.

The feeling of satisfaction that you get from successfully completing something that is, in fact, fairly straightforward is incredible.
When a station comes out of a planet's orbital shadow, the solar panels start generating leccy, charging the station's batteries and the various life-support and scientific systems (depending on what mod's you're using) come on line - so you know your Kerbals aren't doomed and they'll be able to do useful stuff- it's an incredible feeling of achievement in the face of adversity.

And that's a pretty straightforward thing to do.
Try doing the same thing in orbit around one of kerbol's more distant planets and you're talking about planning years ahead, making launches, firing ships off into deep space and then going and building/launching more ships in the hope that they're all going to meet up in orbit around their target years in the future.

So what?

Well, I reckon ED could do with an injection of that kind of adversity.

I know it's the future and our ships are supposed to be amazingly competent but, as a result, ED often lacks that "out on a limb" feeling and it also means that the things we do achieve in ED seem trivial.

Ideally, I guess it might have been nice if the ships in ED weren't quite so powerful so that simply getting around the galaxy successfully became rewarding.
I doubt people would take kindly to the sort of mass-nerfing that would now require so I guess the alternative would be for FDev to dream up new challenges that our ships are barely capable of achieving.

Fundamentally, I think the ships in ED are much too good and they make the rest of the stuff we have to do in-game seem trivial.
If it required more thought, more effort and, perhaps, a bit of luck to do stuff in ED it'd make the things we do in the game feel more significant.

Kerbal is straight out of the original NASA programs. It had been on sale for half off, but I was silly, and bought PLEX when it was on sale...

No EVA drones in this game. That's as close as I think we could get.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I very much doubt the passion for ED has gone from Braben. However, he is now in charge of a rapidly growing company with multiple franchises, no longer just a dev shop for other publishers, and there a probably lots of demands on his time meaning he can't give ED the attention he would like.

As for being wrong, you can't be wrong, as all you did was state an opinion. Opinions are your own but others have different opinions. You get your +1s from people who agree with you. You can write whatever tripe you want on the forums and there will always be people who agree with you. That's the problem with the rep button, it reinforces your belief that you are right because other people agree with you without giving reasons. Same as Facebook with its like button, there have been studies done on it.

At the end of the day, either you enjoy the game or you don't. Its fine. I presume you are at thousands of hours in the game. There seems to be an expectation among some fans that despite having hundreds or thousands of hours in game, getting bored of it is some sort of failing on the part of the devs, when to my mind its completely backwards. One you have even tens of hours in game, you already have your money's worth. There have been many good games, that i have thoroughly enjoyed, that i haven't even reached 10s of hours with. Nothing wrong with them, just i played them to the extent i wanted and then shelved them.

ED has given me well in excess of 2000 hours, and if i didn't play for it a single hour more, its still been one of the best purchases i've ever made in terms of hours vs price.

I'm past three thousand hours. If I'm burn't out, how do I still want to play it, after having sampled the alternatives?

 

[Eidolon]

Nice post Ralph, thank you.

It does seem that ED has lost a lot of its potential now. I used to dream of Elite, but no longer sadly.
Other games are plentiful and I have high hopes for one or two others, especially Bethesa's "Starfield". Time will tell.

Maybe competition is all ED needs, I hope so as the current direction of it leaves me cold.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'm past three thousand hours. If I'm burn't out, how do I still want to play it, after having sampled the alternatives?

Because ED is a damn fine game as long as you focus on what is, rather than what you can dreamcraft might be.

 

[Jacques d'Orleans]

After playing our host game, after breaks, I have played several other games in the interim. I'm posting this here, because I'm sure it would be moved anyway.

First thing I noticed: As I am a "spacegame" addict (not sim, not arcade), Elite's first person perspective, art, sound, etc are the tops. What the *other* games have is content, and story.

Workshops that focus on a single product tend to be better tuned to the fans. Not necessarily better games, but better feedback and response.

Elite is now only one of several lines that Frontier produces, and it shows. The passion is gone.

Additionally, other games have had years to work out their bugs. Here is the prime example:

EVE is fifteen years old, and it still has more players online at it's daily lows, I would say, than Elite has at it's max participation periods. The fans have waited through fifteen years of the game for things to get fixed, and content added. It crashes a lot less than elite. It's crafting and exploration systems are superior. It's mining pays off. It has a genuine risk/reward trade system that is player controlled. It has way better social connections. It has player agency. There are a bewildering number of play options, and ship/fittings to try.

But, players are entirely in a merciless, Darwinian struggle at all times. I was gatecamped (ganked), for no reason, today. No argument for Open can convince me that players would not do the same if Elite was open-only.

It's "hardcore". Your losses are very, very real in time, and money, both ingame, and out. I flew with insurance, and plenty of rebuy. It did not make up for having to find everything needed to make my ship again, as I only got cash, not the ship and it's fittings back. Sound like Engineering? Travel is deadly dull, and slow. Money rules all, as EVE is now a freemium, pay-to-win game (when your character dies, you need to rebuy all the implants, for example).

Elite is a far more humane experience, for all it's flaws. It's biggest flaw is the shared background. If someone could convince the Space Loaches to split the game, or put in a PvP flag, much of the frustration would ebb. It still needs content, but that fifteen year-old example has exactly what Elite needs (content, and stability). The second issue is the network architecture, and the server crashes. No, I do not have even a GED in networking, but Elite's servers crash a lot. This Sunday, for example.

Elite could take away every other space game's lunch, if Frontier was willing to spend the money and the time. It would be an "evergreen" product, generating cash flow.

The sad thing is, the lure of the freemium model might be the only thing that convinces Frontier to make those investments.

Must eat more comfort food, now.

I've played EvE with different accounts since 2004. I'm running 3 acc's with 3 chars each.
I've seen m0o, Guiding Hand Social Club, the rise and fall of Band of Brothers and the rise and fall of many other EvE empires. B-R5RB, Burn Jita Burn, The Fountain War, World War Bee and so on and so forth, it was the hell of a ride.
It can become a full time job pretty fast, I've seen man quit EvE because the game burnt them out.
May I ask if you're playing in Null-SEC?

Btw, you had to pay your lost Implants always yourself even before it became Free to play, that's why you use an empty clone as much as possible. Never fly with your implants when avoidable. I've seen players with billions worth of implants in their chars head getting popped at gates or Jita. Never go Jita with implants.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I've played EvE with different accounts since 2004. I'm running 3 acc's with 3 chars each.
I've seen m0o, Guiding Hand Social Club, the rise and fall of Band of Brothers and the rise and fall of many other EvE empires. B-R5RB, Burn Jita Burn, The Fountain War, World War Bee and so on and so forth, it was the hell of a ride.
It can become a full time job pretty fast, I've seen man quit EvE because the game burnt them out.
May I ask if you're playing in Null-SEC?

Btw, you had to pay your lost Implants always yourself even before it became Free to play, that's why you use an empty clone as much as possible. Never fly with your implants when avoidable. I've seen players with billions worth of implants in their chars head getting popped at gates or Jita. Never go Jita with implants.

No, staying in highsec as much as possible. I got gatecamped in a stargate with 0.4 security, between destinations. Even the high levels of lowsec are as bad as nullsec.

Back on topic:

Many of these games have the bits and pieces to add to Elite. Perhaps they will be added.

In a generation.

Because ED is a damn fine game as long as you focus on what is, rather than what you can dreamcraft might be.

How can you have your pudding, if you don't eat your SPAM?

I hate it when the drive-through screws up my orders.

 

[Jezzah]

I played EVE for nearly 10 years saw all come and go and everything in between right from day one. Loved every minute every heart breaking loss even. Was a CEO of a corps during the first fountain war and I was a foot soldier fighting BoB and the gang and everything in between. Loved every minute. From one minute to the next there were things I could be doing and enjoying each. Participating with others against others if I wanted or just doing my own thing for a few hours. Loved it.

I love ED in very different ways BUT....most of it i think, harks back to hazy memories of the first game and frontiers attempts to capture that in ED. I quit ED for the last time a few months ago. It's just too....homogenous. The galaxy is a big place but there's literally nothing exciting anymore in it. There are no "strike it rich" moments. Everywhere is more of the same that's the same everywhere. I could travel 5000 light years away from the bubble and nothing will be different. Maybe that's great and that's how the galaxy is scientifically but it's damned boring.

I'm hoping Bethesda are doing something in between EVE and ED with a bit of other games like hellion, NMS et al thrown in.

 

[Jacques d'Orleans]

No, staying in highsec as much as possible. I got gatecamped in a stargate with 0.4 security, between destinations. Even the high levels of lowsec are as bad as nullsec.

Back on topic:

Many of these games have the bits and pieces to add to Elite. Perhaps they will be added.

In a generation.



How can you have your pudding, if you don't eat your SPAM?

I hate it when the drive-through screws up my orders.

There are no higher sec levels in low sec, they're all equally bad.
You could/should consider joining one of the big null alliances respectively one of their renter corps (if industry or mining is your thing).
Friendly advice: Never ever travel thru low sec, always take the route thru high sec even when its 30 jumps more. LOW sec is always bad regardless of what their sec status is, never ever go there especially not when transporting stuff! Everything below 0.5 is sh*t and you will die! They low sec corps have always recon at the Low sec to Highsec gates, always.

Another friendly advice: if you wanna do the real money you have to go Null. High Sec is pocket change. As I said above, when your joining one of the big null blocks, there are systems deep in null where you can do your stuff to your hearts content and no Null isn't as far as worse than low sec and surely better than High.

If you want to learn many usefull things about EvE , you also should consider joining EvE University, it's THE place to learn the ropes.


Fly safe o7

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Thank you.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

More reflections after exile: Elite's greatest advantage is the flying experience.

That is what makes the game. You are flying a spaceship.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Elite is now only one of several lines that Frontier produces, and it shows. The passion is gone.

+1
Though I agree with Agony Aunt, that probably David Braben still has passion for ED, but he became too busy with other projects, especially acquiring new ones. For the record, I'd have done the same.
What feels is that Elite's management has no proper passion or vision of which direction they should evolve the game, so the storyline fell flat after 2.4 and unnecessary, overcomplicated layers of module upgrades were introduced. Hell, even the exploration update is almost 100% takeover of the community suggestions, there are no original ideas.
Also, I feel like to much effort have been wasted to revisit existing stuff like Engineering.

To be honest, I wanted to open a similar thread about how discontent I am with the recent updates and that no major game-changer paid extension is on the horizon (pun intended), yet for some reason I keep coming back to play. The magic is still there, and unmatched, but I miss something I can really look forward to.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I don't know if they have or haven't and really haven't seen any evidence of either to be honest.

For me the updates have been in a better direction since someone left to go to another game within FDev.

That's my feelings on it. Also I think they need to just go down one route. Is the game a PvE game with a bit of PvP or a PvP game with a bit of PvP. They need to decide and stick with it. Trying to be everything for everyone does not work and the game will become a mess.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

For me the updates have been in a better direction since someone left to go to another game within FDev.

Then we agree to disagree.

About PVP, I think SDC's/Rinzler's (?) suggestions on this that was published a while ago are acceptable. I think a pirate 'superpower' should be introduced with 'laws' that suit PVPers. The bubble is big enough...

One observation: this discussion should be in the 'dangerous' threads, yet it would be impossible to have it in the same, civilized way.