The Star Citizen Thread v8

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They did reaffirm that mining is still in, but that it will only be surface mining. I.e. no mining of asteroids. And the only ship that will be able to mine is the Prospector...

I was honestly expecting the next line to read:

'The Prospector has also been pushed back to allow for another polishing pass. It's expected in game really very soon, late 2019.'
 
Surprise, surprise, I can see it in your eyes....

Disappointed...but not surprised.

The trouble is....I don't think many backers understand how complicated CIG is making it.

Done properly, under competent management, NBC would have been part of the game engine right from the start. The developers would have had an idea of how the netcode was going to operate, they would have known how many players were going to be in an instance at any one time, the tools to create and build instances capable of supporting that numbers of players would be in place, the design and coding for network traffic would be known and more.

There is a good reason why you build games around engines and not engines around games. The former shows what you CAN do while the latter shows what you WANT to do...

And in any contest between the two, what the engine CAN do, what it CAN support will ALWAYS win.

Right now, Star Citizen has a form of netcode that is based on that originally found in CryEngine. Unfortunately, that netcode is totally inadequate for the MMO style game CIG wants to create.

But CIG haven't done what needs to be done. CIG haven't ripped out that old netcode and replaced it. Oh no.....they did something far, far worse.

They kept it.

You might not think this is a bad thing. After all, it allowed CIG to put up a tech demo capable of "supporting" about 50 players per instance.

I'll note ED has roughly the same player limit, with a peer to peer model and that alone should tell you how bad CIGs netcode is.

But...it is a bad thing. CIG have built their entire "game" around this netcode. BUT....they want to, need to replace it.

That tells me CIG has two sets of netcode.
Meaning either...
1. CIG have to replace the existing netcode with the new modules
Or
2. CIG have built the game with two netcodes in place, running side by side

Neither option is good. Both add to complexity and costs and will hamper development and both mean CIG is supporting two sets of netcode. The former just means that CIG will have to rework everything that touches the netcode (likely the entire game - and because this is only part of the netcode, they have to rework such systems each time) while the latter means that is already in place, but slowing development and adding extra complexity to the project.

Which....last year was it?....was the responsibility of a team of THREE netcode engineers. Three engineers to support and develop an existing netcode AND create a brand new netcode intended to replace it.

That NBC has been delayed yet again...if true....is far from surprising.

Unfortunately, it was the one thing in 3.2 that made 3.2 worthwhile.

Heck....if the only thing 3.x did was to put in place working netcode and get the server code in place, 3.x would have done its job.

Yes....such code is THAT important to the game. The game can get by without ships and guns and mining mechanics can wait....indeed, SHOULD wait. This, however, is a core piece of code that needed to be part of the engine on day one. And until the netcode is up and runnning, CIG are in the unenviable position of trying to create an MMO without knowing how many players the game can support.

Star Citizen can still be salvaged.....given enough time and money, anyway. Their development process...such as it is....won't make development impossible, but it will make it more complex, slower, more drawn out, more prone to bugs/glitches/errors and far far more expensive

Even without Chris Roberts famed micromanaging skills.

However.....that CIG still haven't put into play a simple distance calculator (ok...it is more complex than that) should tell you quite a bit about the state of their code.

As the super secret dev build that works doesn't appear to exist, I am still going to stand by my former recommendation.

Based upon personal knowledge and experience, taking into account evidence such as comments from CIGs own developers, having performed a (cursory) examination of various videos supplied to YT and other sites by other players (I ain't interested anymore) and taking into account supplementary information provided by CIGs backers....

This game is a dead game walking. There is no way the game promised can be delivered. I have no doubt CIG can supply A game but it won't be THE game.

Either CIG needs to fix the engine to support their vision, reduce their vision to one the engine can support or accept what would be an unacceptable level of bugs and glitches (but which SCs backers may plausibly accept as part of the games charm)

CIG, again in my opinion, has one feasible pathway open to it to create the game we all want to play.

To scrap every single line of code wriiten, and start again from scratch, with the FIRST and ONLY order of business being designing the game, followed by the creation of a 64bit engine capable of handling that game.

The alternative is to simply keep throwing money at it and hope that eventually everything will simply "evolve" into a semblence of a working game.

Now, I'll grant it is possible the engine may be in better shape than I gave it credit for. That CIGs devs might have over emphasised the problems for some reason. I don't think so, but it is a possibility.

Sadly, I suspect CIG will simply throw money at the project, more in the hope of getting a MVP released before the money is gone. I expect they'll be able to get a semblance of a game with enough band aid fixes in place to make it sorta playable.

And once they have an acceptable MVP in place, they're off the hook.

And right now I suspect getting the game to the MVP level and getting them off any legal hooks is the primary goal of 3.x.
 
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Pls. enlighten us what is so exceptionally better in this 3.2(PTU)patch?

From the list provided earlier....
More ships, more weapons, more clothes
Ship combat AI tweaks
Item 2.0 comes to ships
Persistence
Improvements to turrets
Performance tweaks

Assuming they don't cancel anything else

Oh...and how could I forget shopping kiosks?

In all honesty, I would expect the best thing to come out of 3.2 to be the increased optimisation. Some people might even end up with a persitently playable SC.

But....NBC? That was...again....the #1 feature of 3.2. Without it? Mostly just a version change.

But at least there are new ships for CIG to keep up to date!!!!
 
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Network Bind Culling "just missed" making it into the update last June, and it "didn't make the cutoff point" for this release.

AI didn't make "the cutoff" for this patch either because it required "tweaking and polishing".

The mining gameplay they showed last month to sell the mining ship also "didn't make the cutoff" for this patch but don't worry, the "feature teams" are working hard to make it "exciting and engaging" for some unspecified date in the future.

Essentially they just released a video containing a litany of excuses including an absolute classic from Tyler Witkin, the lead community guy -

"If only we had the time and the resources to do absolutely everything at once."

Lando's teleprompter broke so he was unable to give a description of network boundary culling, (no I'm not making that up) but it was back up and running just in time to deliver a rousing description of the Mario Golf mining mechanic -

"We're very excited to bring the first iteration of this industrial gameplay to Star Citizen with Alpha 3.2 and you can bet that we're gonna be out there in the persistent universe scouring Crusader's moons for minerals right alongside many of you."
 
You just don't understand game development.

Tho it's really easy, cos they basically told us already: Serialised variables.

Serialised is putting things in a neat row. Also numbers. Like version numbers. They come one after the other, incrementing steadily.

Variable is the opposite to constant. It carries value that can change. In this context it carries multiple ones: for example the release date. And implicitly opportunity to generate more cash so the serialising can continue and people get paid. It is basically a self-perpetuating process.
 
Ta.

The rumbling to offer the excuse is just as insufferable as with previous excuses.

And no FPS AI. This is obviously a good sign for SQ42 progress.

AI has been a deep issue for them for years. Nobody can get it to work. Devs have come and gone trying to shoehorn 3rd party AI into it. Docking is the same, devs have come and gone trying to build functioning docking.

99% of what they're doing is adding assets and tweaking the xmls for the IFCS flight model.

That 'first iteration' of mining represents the most complex thing they can do in 3 months and still end up with something that compiles.

They knew they had to rebuild the networking from scratch last year, I asked Ben Parry in this forum if they'd started it and he answered no. Then they took the decision not to rebuild it and maxed out the connections on the test server to show evocati a big enough player number to get them to shut up about networking.

Then Erin unveiled the grand networking plan to split maps into instances handled by different servers connected by "doors and walkways". I almost fell off my chair when their lead network tech said they planned to handle latencies using geographically centred servers. Didn't see him on another video after that.

They're ticking off features as best they can without breaking everything and invented a new terminology for it - "tier zero implementation"

Star Citizen: Tier Zero Implementation
 
Then Erin unveiled the grand networking plan to split maps into instances handled by different servers connected by "doors and walkways". I almost fell off my chair when their lead network tech said they planned to handle latencies using geographically centred servers. Didn't see him on another video after that.

Remember the grand announcement that they had invented some new topology for meshing server interoperability and interaction using "tokens"?

I wonder what happened to that? :D
 
Disappointed...but not surprised.

The trouble is....I don't think many backers understand how complicated CIG is making it.

Done properly, under competent management, NBC would have been part of the game engine right from the start. The developers would have had an idea of how the netcode was going to operate, they would have known how many players were going to be in an instance at any one time, the tools to create and build instances capable of supporting that numbers of players would be in place, the design and coding for network traffic would be known and more.

There is a good reason why you build games around engines and not engines around games. The former shows what you CAN do while the latter shows what you WANT to do...

And in any contest between the two, what the engine CAN do, what it CAN support will ALWAYS win.

Right now, Star Citizen has a form of netcode that is based on that originally found in CryEngine. Unfortunately, that netcode is totally inadequate for the MMO style game CIG wants to create.

But CIG haven't done what needs to be done. CIG haven't ripped out that old netcode and replaced it. Oh no.....they did something far, far worse.

They kept it.

You might not think this is a bad thing. After all, it allowed CIG to put up a tech demo capable of "supporting" about 50 players per instance.

I'll note ED has roughly the same player limit, with a peer to peer model and that alone should tell you how bad CIGs netcode is.

But...it is a bad thing. CIG have built their entire "game" around this netcode. BUT....they want to, need to replace it.

That tells me CIG has two sets of netcode.
Meaning either...
1. CIG have to replace the existing netcode with the new modules
Or
2. CIG have built the game with two netcodes in place, running side by side

Neither option is good. Both add to complexity and costs and will hamper development and both mean CIG is supporting two sets of netcode. The former just means that CIG will have to rework everything that touches the netcode (likely the entire game - and because this is only part of the netcode, they have to rework such systems each time) while the latter means that is already in place, but slowing development and adding extra complexity to the project.

Which....last year was it?....was the responsibility of a team of THREE netcode engineers. Three engineers to support and develop an existing netcode AND create a brand new netcode intended to replace it.

That NBC has been delayed yet again...if true....is far from surprising.

Unfortunately, it was the one thing in 3.2 that made 3.2 worthwhile.

Heck....if the only thing 3.x did was to put in place working netcode and get the server code in place, 3.x would have done its job.

Yes....such code is THAT important to the game. The game can get by without ships and guns and mining mechanics can wait....indeed, SHOULD wait. This, however, is a core piece of code that needed to be part of the engine on day one. And until the netcode is up and runnning, CIG are in the unenviable position of trying to create an MMO without knowing how many players the game can support.

Star Citizen can still be salvaged.....given enough time and money, anyway. Their development process...such as it is....won't make development impossible, but it will make it more complex, slower, more drawn out, more prone to bugs/glitches/errors and far far more expensive

Even without Chris Roberts famed micromanaging skills.

However.....that CIG still haven't put into play a simple distance calculator (ok...it is more complex than that) should tell you quite a bit about the state of their code.

As the super secret dev build that works doesn't appear to exist, I am still going to stand by my former recommendation.

Based upon personal knowledge and experience, taking into account evidence such as comments from CIGs own developers, having performed a (cursory) examination of various videos supplied to YT and other sites by other players (I ain't interested anymore) and taking into account supplementary information provided by CIGs backers....

This game is a dead game walking. There is no way the game promised can be delivered. I have no doubt CIG can supply A game but it won't be THE game.

Either CIG needs to fix the engine to support their vision, reduce their vision to one the engine can support or accept what would be an unacceptable level of bugs and glitches (but which SCs backers may plausibly accept as part of the games charm)

CIG, again in my opinion, has one feasible pathway open to it to create the game we all want to play.

To scrap every single line of code wriiten, and start again from scratch, with the FIRST and ONLY order of business being designing the game, followed by the creation of a 64bit engine capable of handling that game.

The alternative is to simply keep throwing money at it and hope that eventually everything will simply "evolve" into a semblence of a working game.

Now, I'll grant it is possible the engine may be in better shape than I gave it credit for. That CIGs devs might have over emphasised the problems for some reason. I don't think so, but it is a possibility.

Sadly, I suspect CIG will simply throw money at the project, more in the hope of getting a MVP released before the money is gone. I expect they'll be able to get a semblance of a game with enough band aid fixes in place to make it sorta playable.

And once they have an acceptable MVP in place, they're off the hook.

And right now I suspect getting the game to the MVP level and getting them off any legal hooks is the primary goal of 3.x.


So at the end of the day they would have been better of if they would have gotten rid of Cry Engine completely and should have had a new start by writing a engine from scratch and therefore would also have avoided the netcode problems?
Haven't the DayZ dev's done the same or almost the same?
 
Lol nope. This network implementation isn’t going to be fixed. Ever.

The entire architecture and implementation needs to be ripped out and replaced with something fit for purpose. CIG have repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t have the skills in-house for this kind of work. They need to buy something in, which will then of course need all their existing work revisited to make it compatible - if that is even possible.

This just goes to show that, when designing a Vision for a Multiplayer GAEM - you absolutely must have a scaleable and suitable architecture in place and operational before you waste any time faffing about reworking shiny ship jpegs.

As I've mentioned before my dev friend said to me about 4 years ago when discussing SC network rewrite (for the second time iirc), "If you don't sort the networking out early, you'll always be having issues". Of course this is all heavily related to the fact the engine is borked.
 
"We're very excited to bring the first iteration of this industrial gameplay to Star Citizen with Alpha 3.2 and you can bet that we're gonna be out there in the persistent universe scouring Crusader's moons for minerals right alongside many of you."

Well of course, its not like the devs have to pay $115 to actually take part in mining.
 
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