Do we really need another PvE Centric MMOG?

[rells]

I was excited to encounter Elite Dangerous for the first time a couple of weeks ago and I watched endless trailers and game play videos. I was psyched to learn about a game that could be sandbox oriented, massive, and intriguing. unfortunately the specter of PvE started rearing its head. And as I looked more and more it looked like elite was making the same mistakes as other games have, all over again.

PvP flags have never worked. They didn't work in Ultima Online, Everquest, Neocron, Anarchy online. PvP arenas have never worked. They didn't work in World of Warcraft or any of the other games that have tried.

In fact if the game is not built up from the ground up with consideration of PvP then the game will not be a good pvp game. Eve Online (before it went tame) was just such a game built up from the ground up for PvP and as such a group of 15 2 week old newbies could take out a 3 year old player in more expensive equipment. By contrast in World of Warcraft and dozens of other games if the opponent was 5 levels higher you could mass a thousand friends and they still would have no ability to take out the player 5 levels higher. Games built for PvE are tuned to PvE and not to PvP.

Furthermore, PvE is a tough road to go down. The developers are always in a race to write more content but players are industious and resourceful. The uber sword of death is invented, meant to exist in only one or two players and 6 months down the line the uber sword of death is owned by everyone and another uber sword of uber death has replaced it. Change sword out with spell, ship, weapon or whatnot and the same story repeats over and over again. PvE is a churn and burn and players burn it much faster than anyone can churn it out. What is more, anoter PvE game will be competing with World of Warcraft and a dozen other PvE games. It will be far behind the curve. Sure it will be twitch style flying combat but really it will be just another set of quests, missions, grinding.

Contrast this with the early years of Eve Online. From its launch until EO went down the PvE road, content was generated by players. There was intrigue, political conflict, border wars, piracy, blockades, caravans, massive battles, espionage and so on. The players generate the contents, not the game company. The more industrious the players are, the better and the more volumes the content becomes. Instead of giving players quests and uber swords of death the company should create means for players to create missions and they should create more tools for the players to shape the galaxy, not write dialog or epic monster encounters that will be, in 2 months, beaten and old news.

Elite Dangerous has the capability of doing something new or being yet another PvE MMOG. Instead of trying to tap a saturated market, it could tap a market of disaffected players who have roamed looking for the real sandbox.

If Elite Dangerous is just another PvE MMOG I won't be interested. Sure I am not the only one in the world but people enter space and its vastness to be challenged, not to collect another 10 beetle carapaces or mine for another 10kg of titanium ore. People are looking for the sandbox, not the rewash. There are thousands like me, craving the sandbox.

So goes my 2c worth.

-- Rells
-- Founder of Agony Unleashed in Eve Online

 

[Commander Edison]

So, in a nutshell, it's not for you. That's just how it goes, you liked eve, I found it dull beyond words.

Due to the 1:1 scale of the galaxy FDEV are going for, it was always going to be a primarily PvE experience. If the game manages as many players as eve managed at it's very height, there'd be about two thirds of a player for every system in human space alone, not to mention the remaining 99.99% of the galaxy.

The game is what it is, and there is a sizable market for it. I'm sure something that better fits your tastes is out there though, or you could give FDEV a chance and see what they manage to acheive. You never know, you might like it.

 

[Schnittertm]

I think the first problem is already that you think that ED wants to set out to be an MMOG. It has a few trappings of that, in that there is player interaction possible, but it is not necessary factor. In fact, later on there will be a fully offline single player mode, with just AI filling up the universe, just like the original Elite, as well as the two Frontier games. The player interaction however is more of a perk for those that want it.

Another difference is that there are no skills or levels to grind out, the only skills in the game are those that you bring with you and you have to make something of that. No waiting for certain skills to be able to fly a certain ship type like in EVE, no leveling up to get a certain skill like in WoW. It is just you, it is the epitome of the sandbox in that you are not shoe horned into doing things a certain way to be able to do a certain thing within the game.

There is also no equipment disparity, no 'über sword of über death', as you put it, all weapons will be available to all (though limited by the currently owned ship). To get another weapon or another ship you just have to earn the credits and how you do that is entirely up to you. Do you want to trade? Go for it. Do you want to be a pirate? It's possible. Do what you want and see what comes of it, fill the universe with your own story and use your own skills. That is the enjoyment of ED and in fact the Elite games series as a whole and that can be done in single or multi player.

Therefore, Elite Dangerous does not want to be an MMOG, it has the ability to enable player interaction with and for those that want it, but it is not an MMOG in the strictest sense.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Respectfully - do we need another MMO game where clans and killboards are the goal of PvP?

 

[ToadMan]

True. I'd prefer it if ED was a single player game too.

Proper Newtonian physics again, and no immersion breaking players spoiling things....

Toad.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Welcome!

In terms of PvE...

In my world of gaming choice, Elite won't be competing with World of Warcraft.

I'm not looking for FD to continually "add content" to ED to keep me interested. I've got a galaxy + my imagination + my friends to play with.


In terms of PvP...

I ditched a glorious two-year addiction to World of Tanks in a heartbeat for ED.

 

[Muldeh]

Respectfully - do we need another MMO game where clans and killboards are the goal of PvP?

No we need one with a lot of options and great game balance. BAM an esport is born.

Honestly though, I don't think this game needs to be centred around PvP or PvE, I agree with a lot of what the OP is said. While there shouldn't be arenas with killboards, there should still (and will be) alliances that work together for the benefit of all the players in them, and there should be times where these alliances clash with other alliances resulting in epic battles spawning purely from player choices.

No matter how hard you try PvE is just not going to match PvP in terms of epicness and memorability. Does anybody still come on these forums and talk about their amazing experience in the combat scenarios? Not that I've seen, and even if there is.. it will die down quickly. Just because it's something everyone will have done. Battles created from player choices on the other hand will be much more unique.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Battles created from player choices on the other hand will be much more unique.

Why must it always be battles? lol - there's more to do in Elite than simply blow each other up. It's up to each individual what that "more to do" is.

 

[SAB380]

I was excited to encounter Elite Dangerous for the first time a couple of weeks ago and I watched endless trailers and game play videos. I was psyched to learn about a game that could be sandbox oriented, massive, and intriguing. unfortunately the specter of PvE started rearing its head. And as I looked more and more it looked like elite was making the same mistakes as other games have, all over again.

PvP flags have never worked. They didn't work in Ultima Online, Everquest, Neocron, Anarchy online. PvP arenas have never worked. They didn't work in World of Warcraft or any of the other games that have tried.

In fact if the game is not built up from the ground up with consideration of PvP then the game will not be a good pvp game. Eve Online (before it went tame) was just such a game built up from the ground up for PvP and as such a group of 15 2 week old newbies could take out a 3 year old player in more expensive equipment. By contrast in World of Warcraft and dozens of other games if the opponent was 5 levels higher you could mass a thousand friends and they still would have no ability to take out the player 5 levels higher. Games built for PvE are tuned to PvE and not to PvP.

Furthermore, PvE is a tough road to go down. The developers are always in a race to write more content but players are industious and resourceful. The uber sword of death is invented, meant to exist in only one or two players and 6 months down the line the uber sword of death is owned by everyone and another uber sword of uber death has replaced it. Change sword out with spell, ship, weapon or whatnot and the same story repeats over and over again. PvE is a churn and burn and players burn it much faster than anyone can churn it out. What is more, anoter PvE game will be competing with World of Warcraft and a dozen other PvE games. It will be far behind the curve. Sure it will be twitch style flying combat but really it will be just another set of quests, missions, grinding.

Contrast this with the early years of Eve Online. From its launch until EO went down the PvE road, content was generated by players. There was intrigue, political conflict, border wars, piracy, blockades, caravans, massive battles, espionage and so on. The players generate the contents, not the game company. The more industrious the players are, the better and the more volumes the content becomes. Instead of giving players quests and uber swords of death the company should create means for players to create missions and they should create more tools for the players to shape the galaxy, not write dialog or epic monster encounters that will be, in 2 months, beaten and old news.

Elite Dangerous has the capability of doing something new or being yet another PvE MMOG. Instead of trying to tap a saturated market, it could tap a market of disaffected players who have roamed looking for the real sandbox.

If Elite Dangerous is just another PvE MMOG I won't be interested. Sure I am not the only one in the world but people enter space and its vastness to be challenged, not to collect another 10 beetle carapaces or mine for another 10kg of titanium ore. People are looking for the sandbox, not the rewash. There are thousands like me, craving the sandbox.

So goes my 2c worth.

-- Rells
-- Founder of Agony Unleashed in Eve Online

Summary:

I don't like the changes happening in Eve, I liked the older versions better.
Make Elite more like the older version of Eve for me.
No one likes what Elite offers and everyone wants pvp challenge of older versions of Eve.

My 2c
Rells
Founder of a guild with an awful name in Eve.

 

[Muldeh]

Why must it always be battles? lol - there's more to do in Elite than simply blow each other up. It's up to each individual what that "more to do" is.

Yeah sorry, I agree. Battles are just an easy example.

 

[Arkantes]

There was intrigue, political conflict, border wars, piracy, blockades, caravans, massive battles, espionage and so on. The players generate the contents, not the game company.

What I think you haven't realized is that Frontier is trying to build the game in a way that it will generate all that content by itself. Elite's motto is "procedural generation", but this doesn't stop at the art assets.

You might rather want to wait for Eve Valkyrie instead of trying to change Elite, because so far it seems Frontier doesn't share your vision.

 

[Gwydion]

The one thing you have apparently failed to notice in all the reviews and videos you've seen is that Elite is not a PvP game. Sure it has pvp in it but that's not the focus of the game.

 

[StarTux]

Elite is being built by and towards David Braben's vision, a game he has always wanted to to play. He has stated this in numerous videos, even from the start of the Kickstarter.

Nothing directly to do with MMOG, PVP etc, as your posts suggests they're aiming at a particular demographic which isn't the case.

Take Elite for what it is.

 

[Jenner]

Just a reminder to please be respectful. Agree or disagree with OP's points, but don't do personal attacks.

 

[Spook]

I'd disagree that PVE is tougher on developers. PvP rapidly becomes a never ending quest for that most illusive and unattainable of things - balance.

Any change, no matter how slight is endlessly analysed and critiqued, by a fan base looking for any advantage - no matter how slight. Any sense of imbalance leads to endless threads full of a sense of injustice from those who have suffered from the change, with counter arguments from those who gain. Then following the next change the roles are reversed. More and more developer, and forum support time disappears down a black hole, attempting to fill an endless pit.

New content, interesting game mechanics are sacrificed on the illusionary altar of fair game play, everything not deemed relevant to enhancing "the Pew Pew," is dismissed.

ED's play area is to all intents and purpose, infinite. One of the major conflict enablers for large scale player to player conflict is not present. To drive conflict there would have to be a series of walls put in place which is the complete antithesis of the core game. While some area's, a "tiny percentage" will be walled off for future content, the remainder remains open to give the player base freedom to explore.

The chosen method of networking lends itself more to small gang play, with its p2p instancing and so on.

The dream of importing a clan, lock, stock and barrel from one game to the next. Bringing with it an existing reputation and all the advantages that bestows is just impractical as far as ED is concerned. ED is a different game, it has different mechanics, both technical and gameplay focused. Much better to build an alliance/wing with people who can actually see each other and instance together in game, than try to support an external clan, with member A in Alaska, member B in Melbourne and poor old member C sat at the end of his exchange on the modern day version of 48k dial up.

I believe a lot of thought has gone into the game, it has limitations, but the game has been designed to take into account these limits, there are reasons for why things are the way they are.

 

[CC-2224_Cody]

You guys shouldn't be so quick to bash OP just because he cries PvP. There definitely are some good points and PvP definitely has a place in Elite*. I think the community would benefit from lessening the hostilities at people with opposing opinions. Especially when the opposing opinions aren't as incompatible as it might seem.

So I understand very well where both parties are coming from but what strikes me as odd is why people feel adding channels for more player interaction is somehow mutually exclusive with a single player, immersive Elite experience?
I think what makes this game so special is the potential in appeasing both those ends. Some of you have pointed out that its such an expansive universe that it has to be PvE centric. While I agree that NPCs will undoubtedly play a huge role, the beautiful part about a gigantic universe with boundless frontiers is just that.

Players that want to PvP can stay in the central core worlds (Sol or the Federation worlds), they can have warring regions of space which are very PvP focused and players who want a multiplayer-centric game will stick to these areas. Meanwhile, players that want to enjoy a more 'immersive', isolated experience can spend time on the fringes which are populated by NPCs but only the very occasional player. For all intents it would be a single player experience.

This is the beauty I see in a world like this where 'anything' is possible, and I think that adding systems which allow players to create content is part of expanding that possibility. What if players in factions playing very PvP centric gameplay could generate missions to explore and locate new resourcing sites? For players that want to play solo, they can take it on as just another mission just player generated. This means infinitely variable/endless content without the devs having to write every mission.

I think OP is trying to say that it would open up a lot of possibilities if the game focused on building a strong foundation for player generated content rather than spending time trying to build the content and burning out like a lot of other games. If this is possible, it would very much appease both single player minded gamers and multi, as well as creating a very unique and alive experience.

All that being said, I do believe this is what Elite is aiming for, at least from the dev blogs.

 

[Asp Explorer]

There definitely are some good points and PvP definitely has a place in EVE.

Yup it certainly does

 

[Muldeh]

Excellent post Cody. Agree completely.

 

[CC-2224_Cody]

Yup it certainly does

woops changed that typo lol xD

 

[Aute]

I have mixed feelings about all this. Having been always pvp centered player myself I was disappointed and, strangely enough, at same time relieved somehow when i saw what direction Elite is taking.

Basically, as exciting as pvp content has always been for me, eventually every pvp mmorpg i have played eats up too much of the free time I can spare, stressing you out since you end up giving it the best shot you can to stay competitive..while with game design like Elite has, I can just play casually without worrying too much about keeping the pace up with other players

Still I don't like certain points like being able to switch from multi to solo play back and forth just to avoid pvp and make gameplay easier, I see it as abusing game mechanics to make it easier.

Also I do really hope there will be some player influenced politics and changes in game one way or another..in my eyes it's what makes any multiplayer game truly alive, to see things changing or getting to know that some major events happened there or here knowing that there are actually real happenings and real people behind it instead of it being some generic scripts.