In-Engine Tech in the Trailer? Some thoughts...

[VR Golgot]

There are a couple of signs that the Trailer may have used in-engine material as its base source at points. Suggesting working prototypes for Legs possibly...

• The characters look like current Holo-Me representations. Duh

• The panel flips for the chair animation seem involved enough to be a legit WIP process. The recent trailers haven't dreamscaped 'game mechanics' or involved mechanical processes as a rule

• The way the knees are raised by the rising footpads would have been a lot of work for a little visual touch. More likely it's a working animation system

• The lift parts clip into the hull. Odd for a shiny mock up vid. Just like a real working game though (See the hardpoints on a Courier for confirmation of truth )

• The leg judder as the lift stops could suggest a working skeletal/animation rig etc

Here are some fun pro and enthusiast thoughts gathered on Reddit:

There are some things that area very interesthing in this scene if you think about.1 - The ammount of cliping the elevator have during the animation, the pistons and the plataform itself clip a lot in the hull;
2 - The low polly handles and cables on the ship;
What i think this means is:

• Those elevator/door animations are already in game;
• The character skeleton is a working one, since they already have this tecnology in planet coaster and the new Jurassic park game, importing them to Elite is definitly not a problem at all, we just never see those animations, because there is no option to leave the seat, only to go to the SRV and for Holome, but we can't move our character, only rotate it;
• The airlock interior is probably in all ships as well, because if you make one you could just copy and paste to all other ships just as a placeholder, or maybe we already have airlocks modeled for each type of ship in game... probably not.

I can tell you what's causing the judder, but I can't tell you the reason behind it. It's a brief instance of an IK rig (the thing responsible for keeping feet planted on the ground and hands stuck to objects when held) suddenly readjusting to the position of the character, which can easily happen in-engine and would probably look exactly like that, but it could also be a last-second polishing job by an animator to emphasize the movement of the elevator. If the latter, it's very poorly done, but that doesn't really qualify it as proof of the former. Thanks to the magic of IK, a rush job by an animator and an automatic adjustment to an environmental change can look identical.I've got another leg detail for you, but it's not in this shot. Look at the full trailer, at the scene where the pilot's chair rises up and the controls fold up over his legs. First of all, that's quite an intricate animation to craft for a shot that lasts for all of two seconds, which is what caught my attention, but that's not what I want you to notice; If you look closely at the pilot's legs, you can tell that there's a moment when they lift up slightly. As if they were pushed up from below. I realized that this is a reaction to the foot rests coming up to rest under his feet, lifting his knees ever so slightly. However, his feet aren't visible in the shot. His model is reacting to something that is happening off-screen.
To me, that's a hint that the chair animation was not made specifically for this trailer (or they changed the camera angle at the last minute, but that's even less likely to me since these things should be storyboarded and previs'd before any major work is done specifically to avoid doing more work than necessary). There would be no need to animate what's going on under his feet if they were never supposed to be in the shot. If I was animating that scene, I'd have just left his legs stationary, nobody would know that they're not quite at the correct angle at the end of the animation, and even if I did do the extra work, it's actually more likely that the lifting of the legs would come off as looking wrong because the cause behind the motion isn't clearly shown. I just happen to have figured out what's going on down there because I've spent a LOT of time staring at the models in this game... That suggests to me that the cinematics team got that animation for free, because someone had already made it for other reasons. Otherwise, the leg detail is not only unnecessary work, but work that potentially detracts from the animation by not being clear about why it's moving the way it does.
If we want to embrace our confirmation bias, we can also remind ourselves that this is the very first time we've seen commanders walking around on their own, not counting the CG release trailer. All other cinematics have only featured stationary characters, whether standing or seated. This is the first instance of what appears to be a walking animation using game assets.
That said, I wouldn't hold my breath that this is proof of anything, other than that maybe they've put one lonely animator to the task of making some character animations so they have something to test things with for later. That testing could be what determines the priority of the rest of the development, and that development could still be years away.

I can't tell for sure if the animations are reactive, but the dinos' animations [in JWE] when you airlift them (legs dragging off the ground and dangling in an organic way) leads me to believe either they are or someone spent a solid amount of time perfecting the animations by hand.

Given the periodic 'we have ongoing work on Legs' style pronouncements it seems feasible. Anyone got any tech insight? Get jiggy with it...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It is in-game engine, they can use it as they see fit. It is not indicative of gameplay of any sorts, BUT....

* doors opening animations, light coming up animations - I am highly doubtful it was done just for this trailer. They have tech to do so, even at prototype level;
* avatars doesn't mimic much - same as current avatars. So it is same avatar tech;
* unfolding pilot chair - enough said;

So in my opinion it just shows what they are doing in background. Yeah, they still will say 'might come, might not come line' but they have always done so till they have actual sellable product.

 

[JesusRocks1988]

I'm not going to read too much into it, as it's a cinematic trailer.

But I will say that I agree wholeheartedly that it looks like the cinematic was made in-engine.
It looks also like many parts of the cinematic were recorded using the in-game camera suite.

We have also been told in the past that Frontier staff do actually do the fancy ship flying for trailers.

I will also note that there's more walking around and ship interior detail than has been seen in a trailer for a long, long time. If you put all of Elite's cinematics together in chronological order, I wouldn't be surprised if you see a progression where spacelegs are concerned.
It's almost as if it's Frontier's way of giving us a sneak-peak into the progress they're making with spacelegs without outright coming out and telling us.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of the Commander Chronicles cinematics down the line has even more interior detail, or shows a character doing EVA around whatever new ship FD are releasing at that point - all seemingly unrelated to any gameplay currently in the game, and "only a cinematic", but still continuing the sneak peak into the progress of those mechanics.

 

[NeilF]

Do we know these scenes are actually in-game-engine, and not just rendered by a third party specialising in this sort of "trailer"?

Note the lighting on this scene, where it seems to almost be hand crafted? How even when the lift stops the lighting continues to increase for seemingly no reason?

Anyhow, interesting... If this is basically all in game engine... Wow!

 

[Friedenreich Xante]

OP how can I rep you negatively for raising my expectations to a unreasonable Level that makes me nervous?

I do not thank you

How even when the lift stops the lighting continues to increase for seemingly no reason?

The lighting increases as the door opens and the light inside the ship shines out... I guess.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It is highly possible that they are using Chronicles as way to not only release marketing material, but also test their coding milestones of various work - as they have done so in the past in fact. Except for launch trailer which was obvious CGI fest, all in-game trailers seem to follow trait of showing off new tech possibilities of engine and upcoming mechanics (starting from Damocles battle video which was used to test visuals, engine and was also used for scripted scene to test composer applicants).

So on that pitch alone...yeah.

 

[Bobbydylan]

Inderestin'

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Do we know these scenes are actually in-game-engine, and not just rendered by a third party specialising in this sort of "trailer"?

Note the lighting on this scene, where it seems to almost be hand crafted? How even when the lift stops the lighting continues to increase for seemingly no reason?


Anyhow, interesting... If this is basically all in game engine... Wow!

The camera continues to move upwards when the lift stops and there looks like there is a light above which is coming into view which could cause the increase in light.

And yep, if it is in-game engine which it looks like, then yes, it is a big Wow.

(Also feeling kinda smug as it looks like a theory I said may actually be true, that they have teams working on this stuff for the long term future of the game)

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
Note the lighting on this scene, where it seems to almost be hand crafted? How even when the lift stops the lighting continues to increase for seemingly no reason?
…

The light flare gets brighter because the "camera" is getting closer to it by moving upward. Simple photographic effect

(I assume that the whole cinematic short is handcrafted using game assets)

 

[GroundxZERO]

Man, my dad says “get jiggy with it” and I’m old myself.

This is very interesting stuff. Either way, I’d I’m prepared to have to wait a long time still for any kind of leg action.

 

[Bigmaec]

I'm not convinced it is in-game engine footage, for me the quality of the vid is much more blurry,
while the in-game graphics are more sharp. (No idea how to better describe that)
Could be a thing of my graphics settings, but I don't believe that.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It depends. Pre 2.8 Blender had a game engine baked into it, and the only thing limiting you was your PC power to keep what you made real-time. If that was not a concern, you could ramp up everything to max and hit record while still in engine to get a video.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

There are a couple of signs that the Trailer may have used in-engine material as its base source at points. Suggesting working prototypes for Legs possibly...

• The characters look like current Holo-Me representations. Duh

• The panel flips for the chair animation seem involved enough to be a legit WIP process. The recent trailers haven't dreamscaped 'game mechanics' or involved mechanical processes as a rule

• The way the knees are raised by the rising footpads would have been a lot of work for a little visual touch. More likely it's a working animation system

• The lift parts clip into the hull. Odd for a shiny mock up vid. Just like a real working game though (See the hardpoints on a Courier for confirmation of truth )

• The leg judder as the lift stops could suggest a working skeletal/animation rig etc

Here are some fun pro and enthusiast thoughts gathered on Reddit:

Given the periodic 'we have ongoing work on Legs' style pronouncements it seems feasible. Anyone got any tech insight? Get jiggy with it...

Yep, without doubt, this is in their game in-house in the design stages - especially when you point out that the elavator texture collides and goes through the ship's entrance on the bottom left corner - THAT is in-game assets. That character on the lift is blatently one of the staff on the lift in first-person on one client, with the camera man client recording him going up it and into the ship.

I think this is solid - they are working on space legs

Wouldn't be surprised now if this was the up and coming paid-for content that was mentioned at the end of 2017 to coincide with the last Q4 Beyond update in 2018 - what a way to re-invent the wheel! Found something cool on a planet? Guardian related maybe? How about getting out and going for a look after discovering it from space with your new probes... You might want to take that back-engineered Guardian Shotgun with you, because, you know, you keep it for close encounters... *imagination explodes*

Perhaps Space Legs is easier to work on compared to Atmospheres? Considering they'd need;

1) Weather Systems: Cold, Hot, Wet, Steamy, Foggy, Clouds (elementally dependent)
2) Atmospheric Systems: Wind, Rain, Hailstones, Storms, Lightning, Sounds (& Air Pressure)
3) Atmo-Compositions: Nitrogen, Oxygen, Ammonia, Neon, Carbon-Dioxide, Sulphur, Water, plus many more... (each with potentially different atmosphere colours)
4) Volcanically active worlds: Massive clouds, Volcanoes, Lava (of which, there are lots of different types, just like compositions, above), Plumes of smoke.
5) Running *Liquids* that form lakes and rivers and icecaps (dependant on temperature and air pressure - all of the elements, above, would need to be meticulously calculated by academic geniuses)

If I were a developer, I'd sure hate the challenge of making atmospheric worlds - there are so many things you need to get calculated, especially if you are intending it all to be randomly build to exist as a sole entity based on its compositions. It isn't simply a case of adding *blue* atmospheres just so you can just brush your hands just so players can take a nice screen shot once in a while, whilst the rest of the planetary tech is just copied and pasted from the airless rocks.

Space Legs?

Commander assets already exist.

Missions?

Can be added easily and would probably take much less time than completely designing a whole atmospheric and weather system with so many variables.

The way I see it, much more easier and believable to think Space Legs is coming before atmospheric worlds.

 

[DaveB]

I make 3d models. Some of them have become in-game assets, some of them had no life beyond the scene/sequence I was wanting to render. The below comments should be read as from that viewpoint.

If you make a figure you're going to use in multiple poses - even "multiple poses" as limited as the holo-me setup screen and "look through the window and see them in the chair", you rig it. You really REALLY do not want the hassle of posing the model without a rigged skeleton. On the principle of "If I need two poses now, sooner or later I'll want a third or a fourth or an animation..." you just do it. in a FD-like context, of course, this rigged figure is now perfectly usable in a cinematic trailer sequence.

We already know a lot of ship interior modeling has been done, certainly for the earlier ships in the game. Remember the shots of the Anaconda damage model? Even if they are not currently in use, these assets still exist.

Moving parts on ships like the elevators, doors etc are not surprising. If there's a remote chance that it could be a "visibly moving part" at any point, you model it so that it can be. Not just the cargo hatch, landing gear and hardpoint doors. Tilting nacelles, stellite vents on the main thrusters, airlock doors, crew elevators, panels in the cockpit - if you can anticipate it ever, possibly, moving then you design it so it can from the ground up. Because if you don't and then down the road you discover that you want it to move, well, then you're facing days of rework on something that's already been "finished" and optimized. Le yuck.

So really, if something exists in the engine it's probably already in a state where it can be immediately used in a cinematic render like this trailer, even if there is no intention whatsoever - yet - to use it in-game in that manner.

 

[VR Golgot]

Do we know these scenes are actually in-game-engine, and not just rendered by a third party specialising in this sort of "trailer"?

Note the lighting on this scene, where it seems to almost be hand crafted? How even when the lift stops the lighting continues to increase for seemingly no reason?

Anyhow, interesting... If this is basically all in game engine... Wow!

We don't know. We do know they've had an in-house vid lead for a long time though. (They have used mock up stuff, which I think was confirmed as third party, in things like the launch vid though)

On the light level changes I just took it to be light from the opened door, but it could easily be some post-prod touch up too.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of the Commander Chronicles cinematics down the line has even more interior detail, or shows a character doing EVA around whatever new ship FD are releasing at that point - all seemingly unrelated to any gameplay currently in the game, and "only a cinematic", but still continuing the sneak peak into the progress of those mechanics.

Yeah this would be a fun direction if they went with it

I'm not convinced it is in-game engine footage, for me the quality of the vid is much more blurry,
while the in-game graphics are more sharp. (No idea how to better describe that)
Could be a thing of my graphics settings, but I don't believe that.

They'll have done post-production work on it too, so that doesn't tell us a huge amount either way I wouldn't have thought. (Plus this is a compressed video etc).

 

[VR Golgot]

I make 3d models. Some of them have become in-game assets, some of them had no life beyond the scene/sequence I was wanting to render. The below comments should be read as from that viewpoint.

If you make a figure you're going to use in multiple poses - even "multiple poses" as limited as the holo-me setup screen and "look through the window and see them in the chair", you rig it. You really REALLY do not want the hassle of posing the model without a rigged skeleton. On the principle of "If I need two poses now, sooner or later I'll want a third or a fourth or an animation..." you just do it. in a FD-like context, of course, this rigged figure is now perfectly usable in a cinematic trailer sequence.

We already know a lot of ship interior modeling has been done, certainly for the earlier ships in the game. Remember the shots of the Anaconda damage model? Even if they are not currently in use, these assets still exist.

Moving parts on ships like the elevators, doors etc are not surprising. If there's a remote chance that it could be a "visibly moving part" at any point, you model it so that it can be. Not just the cargo hatch, landing gear and hardpoint doors. Tilting nacelles, stellite vents on the main thrusters, airlock doors, crew elevators, panels in the cockpit - if you can anticipate it ever, possibly, moving then you design it so it can from the ground up. Because if you don't and then down the road you discover that you want it to move, well, then you're facing days of rework on something that's already been "finished" and optimized. Le yuck.

So really, if something exists in the engine it's probably already in a state where it can be immediately used in a cinematic render like this trailer, even if there is no intention whatsoever - yet - to use it in-game in that manner.

Yeah this is exactly the type of pragmatic prep I imagine they've done during core dev to date. Nothing that really informs future gameplay in any meaningful or detailed way, but doing win-win stuff (body rigs), and basic functionality (doors that can actually open / step access that works etc). Potentially lighting considerations etc. Making sure that core stuff is in and can take the flex if more is required of it.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The way I see it, much more easier and believable to think Space Legs is coming before atmospheric worlds.

Considering how big those items are, I expect they will come in parts and might have some sync there. But anyway I am waiting end of year because it will give us hints how FD will plan next few years.

 

[Lightspeed]

Yep, without doubt, this is in their game in-house in the design stages - especially when you point out that the elavator texture collides and goes through the ship's entrance on the bottom left corner - THAT is in-game assets. That character on the lift is blatently one of the staff on the lift in first-person on one client, with the camera man client recording him going up it and into the ship.

I think this is solid - they are working on space legs

Wouldn't be surprised now if this was the up and coming paid-for content that was mentioned at the end of 2017 to coincide with the last Q4 Beyond update in 2018 - what a way to re-invent the wheel! Found something cool on a planet? Guardian related maybe? How about getting out and going for a look after discovering it from space with your new probes... You might want to take that back-engineered Guardian Shotgun with you, because, you know, you keep it for close encounters... *imagination explodes*

Perhaps Space Legs is easier to work on compared to Atmospheres? Considering they'd need;

1) Weather Systems: Cold, Hot, Wet, Steamy, Foggy, Clouds (elementally dependent)
2) Atmospheric Systems: Wind, Rain, Hailstones, Storms, Lightning, Sounds (& Air Pressure)
3) Atmo-Compositions: Nitrogen, Oxygen, Ammonia, Neon, Carbon-Dioxide, Sulphur, Water, plus many more... (each with potentially different atmosphere colours)
4) Volcanically active worlds: Massive clouds, Volcanoes, Lava (of which, there are lots of different types, just like compositions, above), Plumes of smoke.
5) Running *Liquids* that form lakes and rivers and icecaps (dependant on temperature and air pressure - all of the elements, above, would need to be meticulously calculated by academic geniuses)

If I were a developer, I'd sure hate the challenge of making atmospheric worlds - there are so many things you need to get calculated, especially if you are intending it all to be randomly build to exist as a sole entity based on its compositions. It isn't simply a case of adding *blue* atmospheres just so you can just brush your hands just so players can take a nice screen shot once in a while, whilst the rest of the planetary tech is just copied and pasted from the airless rocks.

Space Legs?

Commander assets already exist.

Missions?

Can be added easily and would probably take much less time than completely designing a whole atmospheric and weather system with so many variables.

The way I see it, much more easier and believable to think Space Legs is coming before atmospheric worlds.

It would not surprise me to learn they are working on both Legs and Atmospheres (but I think we all suspected that for a long time now?).

The point about Legs is that they can keep the tease going for a lot longer than Atmospheres. As soon as you show one ship entering an atmosphere of some kind, the surprise is over. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if they hit us with an unexpected Atmospheric Landings Expansion in 2019, even though I'd love to see Legs in the game too !

They may also be testing our reaction. Does the player base want Legs or Atmosphere first?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It would not surprise me to learn they are working on both Legs and Atmospheres (but I think we all suspected that for a long time now?).

The point about Legs is that they can keep the tease going for a lot longer than Atmospheres. As soon as you show one ship entering an atmosphere of some kind, the surprise is over. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if they hit us with an unexpected Atmospheric Landings Expansion in 2019, even though I'd love to see Legs in the game too !

They may also be testing our reaction. Does the player base want Legs or Atmosphere first?

FD has said multiple times that they are vetting responses from player base how to steer future paid for dlcs. They know their technical limits - and for only that space legs is some time away - but that certainly will help them set priorities for next year.

For example, space legs in ships is something I really really want to happen sooner than later, because it would add so much to the game. We don't need walk on planets necessarily, but in ships it would be amazing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

FD has said multiple times that they are vetting responses from player base how to steer future paid for dlcs

Looks to sky suspiciously