I will echo that sentiment, Simon.
Modes How to make open attractive to solo players: Mission Rebuy
- Thread starter CowboyTorry
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I will echo that sentiment, Simon.
No, your first post said it wasn’t an issue to be called names/toxic chat in game.
It is for some - this is not controversial as much as you tell people to grow a thicker skin.
The rest of your posts are to defend this flawed premise.
Not that it matters but I regularly call people on stupid, tribal mode snobbery.
My very first post said there was nothing different between being blasted by an NPC and being blasted by a player are no different. Then came the flawed premise that these are in any way a different situation. A rebuy is a rebuy is a rebuy.
I’ve also at no time on this thread echoed a mode is in any way better than another mode, so in that case I have not displayed any mode snobbery. I have displayed a disregard for comments made about the difference in meeting a rebuy.
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And you've been told there is, attitude and the reason for being shot at.
NPCs cannot feel and act out of malice, players can.
So it makes a huge difference.
All your waffling on since then is to defend your flaw premise that NPCs can act out of malice - which is stupid, as NPCs don't feel anything, they just do as they are programmed.
Players have a choice, players choose who to blow up and who to ignore.
Ending up on a rebuy screen because you made a mistake with an NPC is your own fault, ending up there because someone went out of their way to try and upset is another matter.
Personally? It depends upon the player doing the interdicting.
NPCs don't have free will. They can only do what they're programmed to do.
Players on the other hand, do. When a player attacks me, they've chosen, of their own volition, to interrupt my game session for the sake of their own amusement. The least they can do is be at least as entertaining as NPCs in return.
I've been playing since Alpha, and I can count the number of players who have managed to clear that pathetically low bar on one hand, with fingers left over if I remove PowerPlay related encounters. In fact, many of those players have chosen, again of their own volition, to ensure an encounter with them is as unpleasant as possible.
It isn't about difficulty: I haven't been killed since the original Beta, and the typical ganker is actually easier to evade IMO than the typical NPC, if only because they stand out like a sore thumb, and because they often react poorly when their target doesn't act according to their script.
It isn't about the credits I lose via the rebuy or uncompleted missions: 95% of my rebuy costs have been because of racing or the occasional PvP tournaments, and those are pure loss producing activities. I'm willing to risk losing millions if I have fun while doing so.
It's purely about the fact that in my experience, most gankers are simply not fun to play with. At best, an encounter with them has the none of the charm displayed by NPCs, which is really something. Typically an encounter with them is so asymmetrically lopsided in their favor (transport vs PvP meta-ship) that the outcome of a "fight" would be inevitable, which is extremely boring, so I have no motivation to engage. At worst, many gankers are also combat loggers, cheaters, and/or exploiters, and I have no desire to play with that kind of player at all.
[edited to fix some typos]
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The difference being that you don't die against NPCs if you don't mess up badly
I have found that there is a clear difference between players and NPCs.
NPCs never respond to my "o7". Some players do and sometimes they have interesting conversations with me, which is always nice
I have tried to issue my demands to NPCs for their cargo, and they ignore me and just start firing back.
Sometimes players do this too, but some of them comply with my demands and we both go on our ways unharmed.
Unfortunately, when players don't comply with my reasonable demands, I follow through with my threats and put damage upon their ships, which sometimes blows them up. Again, here I see a difference between players and NPCs. The NPCs accept their rebuy with grace (do they see a rebuy screen? ) and carry on. Some players, however, feel the need to message me and tell me about their assumptions on my personal life (and if they get the hint that I'm female - oh boy!). I'm not particularly fond of the language or sentiments used, but at the end of the day the opinions of these delicate strangers don't matter much to me, so I tootle on.
There's been other times where I have escaped from NPC bounty hunters who attempt to bring me to justice. They don't seem so bothered by this. However, I've had some players who get most upset at my tactical repositioning and as above, feel compelled to tell me about their assumptions. One referred to me as a tasty Welsh dish consisting of meat and gravy - hey I don't mind anyone calling me a tasty Welsh dish, but I got the feeling the intended context was a little different.
Oh well, it's a fun galaxy out there! Choose your mode to match your playstyle and even if you end up fighting the other players, try to be respectful and nice about it
NPCs never respond to my "o7". Some players do and sometimes they have interesting conversations with me, which is always nice
I have tried to issue my demands to NPCs for their cargo, and they ignore me and just start firing back.
Sometimes players do this too, but some of them comply with my demands and we both go on our ways unharmed.
Unfortunately, when players don't comply with my reasonable demands, I follow through with my threats and put damage upon their ships, which sometimes blows them up. Again, here I see a difference between players and NPCs. The NPCs accept their rebuy with grace (do they see a rebuy screen?
) and carry on. Some players, however, feel the need to message me and tell me about their assumptions on my personal life (and if they get the hint that I'm female - oh boy!). I'm not particularly fond of the language or sentiments used, but at the end of the day the opinions of these delicate strangers don't matter much to me, so I tootle on.There's been other times where I have escaped from NPC bounty hunters who attempt to bring me to justice. They don't seem so bothered by this. However, I've had some players who get most upset at my tactical repositioning and as above, feel compelled to tell me about their assumptions. One referred to me as a tasty Welsh dish consisting of meat and gravy - hey I don't mind anyone calling me a tasty Welsh dish, but I got the feeling the intended context was a little different.
Oh well, it's a fun galaxy out there! Choose your mode to match your playstyle and even if you end up fighting the other players, try to be respectful and nice about it
And yet in the end the explosion is still the same. You’re of the opinion that it’s different and I disagree. In all of your continued babbling I would say you are arguing on flawed logic. Continue to argue your point all you want, but in the end all you have is your opinion and that doesn’t make mine any different because you believe it to be flawed. The intentions don’t change the end result.
Quite frankly, I have no interest whatsoever in playing in Open so any and all 'incientives' are meaningless - and I wish that people could for once and for all disabuse themselves of the idea that players who choose to play Solo do so because they feel something is missing from, or might be improved in, Open.
I've never been interdicted in Shinrarta by an NPC. I dunno if that's luck or programmed.
Flawed logic?
You've tried claiming NPCs act out of malice, twice.
Which is clearly not even possible, but you've kept pushing the idea.
And "intentions" do change the end result.
Because an NPC has never made anyone leave open mode, but players have.
NPCs have never come to the forums to gloat and tell people "if you don't like it, join Mobius" - but players have.
Yes the end result can be very, very different. But you continue to argue your opinion, you're entitled to it after all.
But considering the names I've seen PvP'ers call the NPCs over the years, you want to be considered equal to an NPC - you go for it.
Who am I to judge.
The Dark Wheel I think it is, have pulled me a few times.
But not often.
Flawed logic?
You've tried claiming NPCs act out of malice, twice.
Which is clearly not even possible, but you've kept pushing the idea.
And "intentions" do change the end result.
Because an NPC has never made anyone leave open mode, but players have.
NPCs have never come to the forums to gloat and tell people "if you don't like it, join Mobius" - but players have.
Yes the end result can be very, very different. But you continue to argue your opinion, you're entitled to it after all.
But considering the names I've seen PvP'ers call the NPCs over the years, you want to be considered equal to an NPC - you go for it.
Who am I to judge.
The Dark Wheel I think it is, have pulled me a few times.
But not often.
Yes your logic imo is flawed. You believe that when you go boom the result is somehow different. Allowing yourself to be influenced by someone’s actions on the forum or otherwise is no different from say me dying repeatedly at the hands of an NPC and then quitting the game because I believe the learning curve is too steep or to difficult.
Remind me again who programmed the NPCs? Was it humans or did AI program NPCs? So a human you say? So there is a human element? Which means when that NPC threatens to blow me up etc and shows me their malice thru comms just as you have claimed people do then that was created by people as well right? So difference being?
As you say continue to argue your opinion all you want just don’t be surprised that I think very little of it.
Talk about a stretch, when the AI was programmed it didn't have anything personal added to it - it doesn't pick a target because it's an unarmed explorer or a shieldless trader.
When an AI attacks, it's random. Luck of the draw. Nothing else.
If players attack that same unarmed explorer, it's not random - they were chosen. When they attack a shieldless trader, it's not random, is deliberate.
So players attacking can be personal - as it can be a group of little people, picking on weaker targets to make themselves feel powerful / important.
AI has no choice and the programmer isn't being personal, as they haven't a clue who will be attacked.
You're beyond crazy if you take an AI attack personally.
So ending up on a rebuy screen can have whole different outcomes. Because if it's your own stupidity, you feel annoyed at yourself and try again.
If it's because someone else was being a jerk - it changes how you play, where you play and why you play.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but jerks forcing people out of open, ruins open for everyone else - as there are fewer and fewer people to play with.
"continue to argue your opinion all you want just don’t be surprised that I think very little of it" - coming from you, that's not really an issue.
The opinion of someone who tries to anthropomorphise computer code to win internet points doesn't really bother me.
What does bother me is the feeling that we are so wildly off topic, a blue name may pop up soon to tell us off.
So feel free to add your thoughts, but I'm going to step back before we are told to shut up or end up getting the thread locked.
So in relation to the thread, reducing / limiting the available negative interactions in open would go a long way to encouraging people to go back / try open
There is a reason why memes and phrases like the following exist:
- “It’s the thought that counts”
- ”They has good intentions”
- “The ends justify the means”
- ”The well-intentioned extremist”
- ”I didn’t mean to do it”
- ”What was their motive?”
- ”A villain with good publicity”
So, let’s look at the intention behind two actions that have similar results.
In the case of NPCs, an NPC destroying your ship is the result of programming created by people at Frontier Developments. Their intention is to make a game that is fun for most players. While there will always be outliers at both ends of the spectrum skill wise, Frontier attempts to ensure that an encounter with NPCs should be a relatively fair fight. That’s why shieldless sidewinders piloted by harmless ranked pirates and assassins even exist in the game. If you die to an NPC, it’s probably because you screwed up somewhere.
That is why most players don’t mind getting killed by an NPC.
On the other hand, in the case of your typical ganker, their intention is to satisfy their need for entertainment at the expense of your own. In addition, unlike Frontier Developments, the typical ganker goes out of their way to ensure that your encounter with them will be as lopsided as possible. Some go as far as using cheats and exploits to gain an extra edge. Most will combat log should they discover that their mark has teeth after all. Some even go out of their way to ensure that their mark has an unpleasant experience as possible.
That is why most players don’t like even getting attacked by gankers, let alone being killed by them.
Here’s the thing, though. For many players, getting attacked by players who communicate their intentions is treated as an event that is desirable, or even preferred over NPCs. If they get killed by them, they generally don’t get upset, even if the encounter may be favor the aggressor. By communicating, the aggressor signals that they recognize they regard the other player as a fellow human being, and not a target they can get their jollies off of. They also signal that they can be appeased, appealed to, or negotiated with. In short, through communication, they’ve demonstrated they gave good intentions, even if their goals may be opposed to theirs.
And that is why many players play in Open.
The difference being that you don't die against NPCs if you don't mess up badly
According to some the same applies to players as well.
Against players you only have to mess up a bit.
Mostly it is one wrong decision, low-wake instead of highwake, don't submit, or flying in a straight line while charging your FSD.
Against NPC you can do all of this wrong and still survive
It is different in the perception of some players. I don't understand why you continue to argue against this point - did you forget to install your empathy module?
I get that you don't agree (it doesn't bother me either) but how can you argue against what another person feels? It's impossible!The flaw in your argument is that you are invalidating the response of the hypothetical player - they DO feel that being killed by a CMDR is different to an NPC. Again, I agree that maybe it shouldn't bother them - but it does. You can't argue about that.
I'm an Open mode advocate and I used to tell people they were silly to not play in Open as it's not the gankfest you think it is/it's fairly easy to avoid being killed by other CMDRs/etc etc but none of that addresses the feelings a player has when killed by another CMDR, or the risk of being killed by another CMDR. Whether I agree with that or not is moot - they have that perception.
So, for those who want to fly in Open, I give them help on what to do. For those that complain about being offed in game in unequal PvP I sympathise and let them know that it is avoidable, but also that other modes are fine to play in.
Some, like Sepp here don't want to play in Open full stop:
And that is fine. I'm sure I won't find Sepp elswhere on the forum complaining about joining Open and then dying cos they flew a shieldless trader at a CG and tried to fight the interdiction, lost and then tried to low wake. It's all good - Sepp has made their choice.
So to re-iterate, incentives or even in some cases changes to the whole Open mode (short of a PvP flag which if I hear one more time suggested will result in a meltdown probably) isn't going to make Solo/PG players suddenly join Open.
The only way to encourage ppl to fly in Open is to demonstrate what fun it is, which is what I now try and do.
Against players you only have to mess up a bit.
Mostly it is one wrong decision, low-wake instead of highwake, don't submit, or flying in a straight line while charging your FSD.
Against NPC you can do all of this wrong and still survive
That sounds like a good assessment.
Still, i do manage to die against NPCs, sometimes even when not drunk.