Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

[Devari]

It isn't ridiculous though.

What's ridiculous is trying to compare something as vague, open-ended and subjective as a kickstarter's intentions to something where a person HAS legally recognised rights.

They do. You might not realize what those rights are but there are very relevant consumer protection laws about advertising and selling something to someone as a retail product and then failing to deliver that product. The LEP sold in 2015 was not a kickstarter, it was a pre-order for a purchase of digital goods.

There are laws to ensure food is sold as described, just as there are laws prohibiting the use of counterfeit currency.
There are no laws to ensure a game dev' delivers specific milestones within a specifc timeframe unless they have contractually agreed to do so.

The purchase is a contract that was based on the expectation of good faith efforts on the part of FD to develop and deliver the content they described. How do you not understand that?

People who bought LEP's for ED did so on the basis of their own expectations, based on the credibility of FDev's sales pitch and the people behind the company.

You can moan all you want if you think your expectations haven't been met - and you're perfectly entitled to do so - but it IS ridiculous to try and draw a comparison between this situation and one where a consumer's rights ARE recognised in law.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. All an LEP owner has to do is read the page where FD described what they were developing, take a look at the fact that FD has not delivered this within a reasonable timeframe of several years after making that purchase, and ask for a refund. Unless FD can show where they delivered that content there is no way that request would not be supported fully by customer protection laws, especially considering how strong these particular laws are in the UK.

 

[Stealthie]

What exactly would you call it when players try to claim that it's the "fault" of LEP owners for buying the LEP? Or that they somehow took a "gamble" by making the purchase? That is utterly incomprehensible from any perspective other than someone who is desperately trying to defend FD at all costs.

I'd call it a recognition of the reality of the situation.

 

[Devari]

I know that....you know that.

Beige Squadron, forget they know that.

Beige Squadron sounds like a perfect name. Someone really needs to work on an appropriate meme for that.

And unless I'm crazy, there's a whole FD Team at the forums disposal who should enable everyone...to know better.

Unfortunately a company will sometimes hope that by ignoring a problem it will simply go away. When it doesn't, like the EA lootbox debacle, they have to work many times harder to fix it at that stage than if they had addressed the problem properly at the start.

 

[Genus]

minimum viable product

Translates as second rate, but profitable.

 

[Devari]

I'd call it a recognition of the reality of the situation.

So you're suggesting here that this situation is the "fault" of someone who trusted Braben and FD by buying an LEP?

Are you seriously suggesting that? We should blame someone who bought a product from FD for ... buying a product from FD?

You do realize that sort of suggestion of blaming a customer for buying a retail product is beyond the pale, right?

 

[Sylveria]

So you're suggesting that players should have assumed that Braben and FD are on par with EA in terms of their marketing strategies? It seems to me that the entire point of making a game with the development model that was described for Elite was to put the emphasis on game development first and foremost rather than simply being a vehicle to maximize shareholder profits and deliver a minimum viable product to customers.

That's my understanding of it. I always assume I'm going to get screwed by any business. Hope for the best- but prepare for the worst.

It's a reality.

You realize that if that were the case then Elite would never have been built, right? If no one trusted Braben the game would have never been made. Are you suggesting that Elite should not have existed then? Because if we used your logic no one would have bought into Elite at the kickstarter stage.

You also realize that when the LEP was sold in 2015 Elite was no longer "early access"? It was a fully launched retail game at that point and there should have been little to no "risk" that Braben wasn't going to follow through with proper development of the Elite franchise?

Perhaps it really shouldn't have been built. Perhaps that's the reason why some are using terminology like "minimum viable product" and so forth to demonstrate points regarding the game's status?

Don't get me wrong- I truly enjoy playing Elite Dangerous- but I do also understand points some make regarding the game feeling "unfinished", because even though it was put into release status, it really isn't finished. It's why "mile wide, inch deep" comes up so often. Because there's a lot of truth to it.

I remember when ED and SC were both originally in Crowd-fund mode, and watched it closely. I remember seeing ED release and the backlash that followed when people realized it wasn't anywhere near the dimension of what was originally promised. I remember all the excuses being made regarding Elite Dangerous being "still in development" afterward, too.

Well here we are... 4 years later and it's still in development. I sure as hell wouldn't trust them with a pre-purchase at this point given the history of development this game has had so far, to be completely honest. I'd tell them to make good on their original intent before they even thought about asking me for "more" money. Even in 2015 I saw the direction this was going in and it's exactly why I didn't get an LEP.

My advice to anyone who feels as if they haven't gotten what they paid for is either you speak to your lawyer/barrister- or simply cut your losses and be more cautious in the future. I suppose it depends on what it's "worth" to you which direction you choose to follow.

The greatest advice I was given years ago- when I was loaning out money to "friends" then not getting paid back... was never loan what you can't afford to lose. Since then I've applied the same principle to ANY investment or purchase I make, too... because realistically, courts favor businesses more than customers or even employees these days. Money indeed talks. So allow yours to do the talking for you, too.

 

[Devari]

Translates as second rate, but profitable.

Or sort of like a car that has flat tires and an engine that won't start, but you are assured that you technically still own a car that you can sit in and make "vroom vroom" noises yourself, in an attempt to "create your own mode of transportation".

 

[Genus]

Or sort of like a car that has flat tires and an engine that won't start, but you are assured that you technically still own a car that you can sit in and make "vroom vroom" noises yourself, in an attempt to "create your own mode of transportation".

More like you need a car, but they sell you a skateboard.

Unfortunately a company will sometimes hope that by ignoring a problem it will simply go away. When it doesn't, like the EA lootbox debacle, they have to work many times harder to fix it at that stage than if they had addressed the problem properly at the start.

Best post ever.

People in general, have NO IDEA what the world would be like if it was considered normal capitalist culture, to move away from this. Thinking things through often and early ain't common. It's becoming less rare, thank Grudd.

Western companies on the whole react, and fail to act.

 

[Devari]

That's my understanding of it. I always assume I'm going to get screwed by any business. Hope for the best- but prepare for the worst.

It's a reality.

How do you "prepare for the worst" exactly? I'm curious how you can make any significant purchase if you assume that every business is out to cheat you. I make the opposite assumption that a business wants to treat me fairly, not because they're necessarily wonderful people, but simply because I am literally paying their bills and they require customers for their livelihood.

Perhaps it really shouldn't have been built. Perhaps that's the reason why some are using terminology like "minimum viable product" and so forth to demonstrate points regarding the game's status?

If FD were struggling financially, or if there were insurmountable technical challenges, or other issues completely outside of Braben and FD's control? Then I might agree with you here. But there isn't. There's just a combination of sheer corporate greed, prioritizing shareholder profits over customers and a deliberate decisions to give Elite far fewer resources than it needs to be adequately developed.

Don't get me wrong- I truly enjoy playing Elite Dangerous- but I do also understand points some make regarding the game feeling "unfinished", because even though it was put into release status, it really isn't finished. It's why "mile wide, inch deep" comes up so often. Because there's a lot of truth to it.

I remember when ED and SC were both originally in Crowd-fund mode, and watched it closely. I remember seeing ED release and the backlash that followed when people realized it wasn't anywhere near the dimension of what was originally promised. I remember all the excuses being made regarding Elite Dangerous being "still in development" afterward, too.

Well here we are... 4 years later and it's still in development. I sure as hell wouldn't trust them with a pre-purchase at this point given the history of development this game has had so far, to be completely honest. I'd tell them to make good on their original intent before they even thought about asking me for "more" money. Even in 2015 I saw the direction this was going in and it's exactly why I didn't get an LEP.

My advice to anyone who feels as if they haven't gotten what they paid for is either you speak to your lawyer/barrister- or simply cut your losses and be more cautious in the future. I suppose it depends on what it's "worth" to you which direction you choose to follow.

The greatest advice I was given years ago- when I was loaning out money to "friends" then not getting paid back... was never loan what you can't afford to lose. Since then I've applied the same principle to ANY investment or purchase I make, too... because realistically, courts favor businesses more than customers or even employees these days. Money indeed talks. So allow yours to do the talking for you, too.

I have allowed both my playtime and purchasing habits to speak for themselves, in the sense that I took a 6 month break from Elite during which time I wasn't spending any significant time or money on the game. Now I'm back thanks to the Krait and I've already spent another $12.50 USD on engine colors and nameplates for that ship. That's not a lot of money but it brings the total I've spend on the game to around $325 USD so far including the base game, Horizons, cosmetics and a second account for multicrew. The correlation here is quite clear that if FD produces a good product, people will happily keep spending money on the game, but if they don't treat their customers fairly those customers will spend their time and money elsewhere. It's up to FD to figure that out for themselves but after 3.5 years I would hope they had already arrived at that realization by now.

 

[Stealthie]

They do. You might not realize what those rights are but there are very relevant consumer protection laws about advertising and selling something to someone as a retail product and then failing to deliver that product. The LEP sold in 2015 was not a kickstarter, it was a pre-order for a purchase of digital goods.

The purchase is a contract that was based on the expectation of good faith efforts on the part of FD to develop and deliver the content they described. How do you not understand that?

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. All an LEP owner has to do is read the page where FD described what they were developing, take a look at the fact that FD has not delivered this within a reasonable timeframe of several years after making that purchase, and ask for a refund. Unless FD can show where they delivered that content there is no way that request would not be supported fully by customer protection laws, especially considering how strong these particular laws are in the UK.

You keep banging on about "expectations" but don't seem to grasp the idea that "expectations" are an entirely subjective thing which are utterly meaningless.

If you thought you had a leg to stand on you would already have pasted up the relevant information from the purchase agreement from your LEP.

Where's the part that says specific content will be delivered within a specific timeframe?
Where's the part that says a specific amount of content will be delivered on a regular basis?
Where's the part that says any content delivered will meet specific standards?

None of this exists so, instead, you're wittering on about how you "feel" you've been treated and whether your "expectations" have been met.

You're talking about a company that HAS delivered a product, IS continuing to develop that product and shows NO sign of ending development of that product.
And you're trying to draw analogies with empty packets of food and counterfeit currency.

That's delusional.

 

[Sylveria]

How do you "prepare for the worst" exactly? I'm curious how you can make any significant purchase if you assume that every business is out to cheat you. I make the opposite assumption that a business wants to treat me fairly, not because they're necessarily wonderful people, but simply because I am literally paying their bills and they require customers for their livelihood.

If FD were struggling financially, or if there were insurmountable technical challenges, or other issues completely outside of Braben and FD's control? Then I might agree with you here. But there isn't. There's just a combination of sheer corporate greed, prioritizing shareholder profits over customers and a deliberate decisions to give Elite far fewer resources than it needs to be adequately developed.

I have, in the sense that I took a 6 month break from Elite during which time I wasn't spending any significant time or money on the game. Now I'm back thanks to the Krait and I've already spent $12.5 USD on engine colors and nameplates for that ship. That's not a lot of money but I've already spent around $320 on the game so far including the base game, Horizons, cosmetics and second account. The correlation here is quite clear that if FD produces a good product, people will happily keep spending money on the game, but if they don't treat their customers fairly they will spend their time and money elsewhere.

I prepare for the worst by setting my "expectations" accordingly. I don't expect that I'll get what I paid for. If I do, I'm pleasantly surprised.

As to your second point- my personal belief was this game simply wasn't ready when it was released. They underestimated the amount of funding and development they would need to build what David envisioned. They hit the fire button prematurely, and hate to say it- but as much as crap I give CIG for not releasing Star Citizen yet, they're showing a smarter business strategy. If they DO release a product it's bound to be a huge success by comparison... and if they don't it's going to be one of those historical cases that sets precedence for international business law. Bank on it.

As to your last- I have spent roughly the same amount over the years on different things, too. Albeit with the intention that at any point in time they could shut the servers down, put up a bankruptcy notice and retire to the Bahamas. Seriously. Only recently I have decided that my wallet is closed to them until I see further improvement in this game- for me it's going to be Q4 that makes or breaks it.

 

[Red Anders]

What exactly would you call it when players try to claim that it's the "fault" of LEP owners for buying the LEP? Or that they somehow took a "gamble" by making the purchase? That is utterly incomprehensible from any perspective other than someone who is desperately trying to defend FD at all costs.

I've got a bag of sweets here. I can tell you that there are some sweets in the bag and specifically, five of them are strawberry flavour. I can also tell you that if you buy the bag and also buy my future sweets pass for a tenner, I'll give you some more sweets every time I have some available and some of those will also be strawberry flavour.

Is this deal value for money?

If you answer 'yes' you're a moron and I don't actually think you're a moron.
If you answer 'no' you're also a moron. See above.

If you answer 'it depends on how many sweets are in the bag, also how many sweets I'll get each time you have some more available and how many times you're likely to have any available at all, since you haven't actually specified any of these things' I'd consider you a shrewd investor. I mean those are the considerations that I'd be making before making a purchasing decision. Seems sensible to me.

I'll go further than that. If I gave you the bag and you discovered it had the five promised strawberry sweets in along with a chewed piece of Juicy Fruit and a gobstopper that has clearly been licked, I think you'd have a right to be annoyed. If I then gave you another bag with two strawberry sweets in and a lolly with no stick and said 'right, there's your lifetime updates done with' I think you'd be entirely within your rights to accuse me of sharp business practices.

If on the other hand you said that you were annoyed that I hadn't delivered the promised Mars Bars and Snickers by July 2018, I think it would be reasonable of me to point out that I hadn't promised you any Mars Bars or Snickers and didn't promise you anything at all by July 2018. If you were to then accuse me of sharp business practice for not delivering those items by that date, I'm afraid I'd be quite concerned about your mental health.

I'm going to say this one more time and I'd really thank you to take note of it this time because frankly your refusal to do so is very insulting. I am not defending or shilling for FDev, not least because I don't see that they're in need of defending here to begin with. You can replace any commodity and any manufacturer that you like in the above example and I would say exactly the same thing because the issue is not actually one of trust to begin with, other than the fact that as you've made clear, you have lost yours. But you have not lost it because of a failure to deliver on any contractual promise. You've lost it simply because the actual delivery to date is not meeting your expectations.

Remember, you're the one who keeps talking about the legal position and so on. Consumer law starts and ends with contracts because that is what any judgement of whether a promise has been met had to be made with reference to - the promise that was made. The actual promise, not your feelings, needs or desires. That's why I keep referring to it, because that is what defines legally what you are and are not entitled to.

I can't and won't comment on your expectations and whether they're reasonable or not because that's for you to judge, not me. They are what they are. What they are emphatically not though are a yardstick against which actual delivery of an actual product should be measured, in terms of trying to suggest that a fraudulent activity has occurred. Like I said, any company and any product, I would say exactly the same thing.

I don't work for FDev, I'm not affiliated with them, all they are to me is a company that I bought a product from. I haven't made any of the comments in this thread out of some specific wish to 'defend' them, I've merely pointed out (as others have already) that you are literally making up your own contract in your head, with its own timeline and milestones, then berating them for not delivering it. My concern here is not that I feel I need to defend FDev from it. My concern is just pointing out that it has absolutely no basis in logic, fact or sense.

I know you are just going to come back with even more of the same because I've seen you on here like this before when you get completely beyond reason and are incapable of taking a step back to look at a situation objectively rather than through the prism of your furious certainty that you've been cheated in some way, so I think it's probably best that we leave it here.

 

[Genus]

Only recently I have decided that my wallet is closed to them until I see further improvement in this game- for me it's going to be Q4 that makes or breaks it.

Christmas is coming....

 

[Devari]

You keep banging on about "expectations" but don't seem to grasp the idea that "expectations" are an entirely subjective thing which are utterly meaningless.

It's not subjective at all when FD states what they are going to develop in their description of the LEP.

If you thought you had a leg to stand on you would already have pasted up the relevant information from the purchase agreement from your LEP.

That has already been done in this thread multiple times where the details of the LEP were posted in various forms quoted directly FD's own sales page. Obsidian Ant even did this with a direct screenshot.

Where's the part that says specific content will be delivered within a specific timeframe?

That's implied by the purchase of a digital product that there is a good faith effort to develop what you've paid for.

Where's the part that says a specific amount of content will be delivered on a regular basis?

That's also implied by the way the product was described. They said that there would be regular updates. It's right there in the description. Have you actually read it?

Where's the part that says any content delivered will meet specific standards?

That's like asking where it says that my car will actually run, or that my jacket won't fall apart the first time I wear it. It's assumed that you are buying something that substantially reflects a reasonable quality for the product that is being sold.

None of this exists so, instead, you're wittering on about how you "feel" you've been treated and whether your "expectations" have been met.

That's not how consumer protection laws work. Sorry but you are completely wrong. You seem to be under the impression that someone selling you something has to literally tell you "I will actually deliver what I've sold you" or "I will give you a product of the same quality that I described" and so on. That is implied as part of the purchase you made.

You're talking about a company that HAS delivered a product, IS continuing to develop that product and shows NO sign of ending development of that product.
And you're trying to draw analogies with empty packets of food and counterfeit currency.

They have not delivered content to LEP owners that is commensurate with what they purchased. They have, at best, delivered 1/4 of the value of what they bought and neither of the stated expansion content of space legs, boarding actions, landing on inhabited worlds and so on has been delivered.

That's delusional.

It really isn't. Also I don't think that word means what you think it means. Given that you are using it wrong.

 

[Devari]

I've got a bag of sweets here. I can tell you that there are some sweets in the bag and specifically, five of them are strawberry flavour. I can also tell you that if you buy the bag and also buy my future sweets pass for a tenner, I'll give you some more sweets every time I have some available and some of those will also be strawberry flavour.

That is not what FD sold players with the LEP. That is a nonsensical example that doesn't reflect any actual business practice, anywhere.

Is this deal value for money?

It's incomprehensible nonsense, so I would say no. There is no value because you're making up a nonsensical example that has no relationship to buying a retail product.

If you answer 'yes' you're a moron and I don't actually think you're a moron.
If you answer 'no' you're also a moron. See above.

If you are trying to compare that ridiculous example to an LEP purchase, then you are either trolling or you are again trying to defend FD at all costs because you can't handle the thought of FD having done something wrong with how they treated LEP customers.

Sorry but you really need to do better here. We aren't talking about a nonsensical example with a theoretical amount of strawberry candies here. We are talking about a specific product that FD advertised, sold and has failed to deliver to their customers within a reasonable timeframe.

 

[Genus]

Meh, the LEP itself is a false equivalency.

It's only going be ironic, that all arguments for or against having one are too.

 

[Stealthie]

It's not subjective at all when FD states what they are going to develop in their description of the LEP.



That has already been done in this thread multiple times where the details of the LEP were posted in various forms quoted directly FD's own sales page. Obsidian Ant even did this with a direct screenshot.



That's implied by the purchase of a digital product that there is a good faith effort to develop what you've paid for.



That's also implied by the way the product was described. They said that there would be regular updates. It's right there in the description. Have you actually read it?



That's like asking where it says that my car will actually run, or that my jacket won't fall apart the first time I wear it. It's assumed that you are buying something that substantially reflects a reasonable quality for the product that is being sold.



That's not how consumer protection laws work. Sorry but you are completely wrong. You seem to be under the impression that someone selling you something has to literally tell you "I will actually deliver what I've sold you" or "I will give you a product of the same quality that I described" and so on. That is implied as part of the purchase you made.



They have not delivered content to LEP owners that is commensurate with what they purchased. They have, at best, delivered 1/4 of the value of what they bought and neither of the stated expansion content of space legs, boarding actions, landing on inhabited worlds and so on has been delivered.



It really isn't. Also I don't think that word means what you think it means. Given that you are using it wrong.

Right ho.

Best of luck. [up]

*EDIT*

While I'm at it, please try a bit harder to ensure the quotes you post up are made properly.
I've noticed several quotes attributed to me which contain text that I didn't write.

 

[Red Anders]

My interest lies, in if anyone actually believes, that under the current design approach, Space Legs and Planetary Landings, will even come close to the now 3 year over-due expectation of their being a game under all this? Once those two "functions", actually get implemented...will they bring balance to the force...or stretch it even thinner over an already massive canvas with no picture on it?

How long before we get stuff to do that even makes them worthwhile having?

It's all well and good talking about these things in the context of "LEP"!...finally...YAAAAY! Premium Content!. But will they even be worth until we have to wait for another 3 or 4 years to be able to have FUN with them?

On this, I genuinely don't know and even if I did I'm not sure that it would inform my opinion much because for a start I have no idea whether the 'current design approach' will actually continue or not (and it's quite a vague term to begin with since it encompasses pretty much everything to do with creating the game, when in reality any number of aspects of it could change independently of other aspects - an obvious example being the same design philosophy but increased (or decreased!) resources to deliver it) so even if I had a totally firm opinion assuming that it would continue, it's still an assumption that might have no relation to what actually happens.

Simply put, if I had an LEP the only time I would be making an assessment of whether it was worth the money and of whether I got ripped off or not would be when the game developers say 'right, that's all you're getting' because it's only at that time that the sum total of what I did actually get becomes quantifiable.

If I thought I'd had my pants pulled down at that point then sure, I'd be just as mad as Devari is now. I don't get the need to be preemptively furious about something which hasn't actually happened yet though. I mean Christ, I'd like more content in the game by now for sure, of course I would. There isn't really an argument against more, better quality content that I can think of. That's not what's going on here though. It's way Beyond (arf!) that.

 

[Devari]

I prepare for the worst by setting my "expectations" accordingly. I don't expect that I'll get what I paid for. If I do, I'm pleasantly surprised.

How do you do that, exactly though? I mean are you sufficiently wealthy that you can expect to literally throw away money when you purchase something? Or is it somehow a massive "win" for you when you buy a chocolate bar and there is, in fact, a chocolate bar contained inside the wrapping? Do you yell out in surprise when you pay to have your car repaired and it is, in fact, returned to you in working condition?

I really don't see how anyone could honestly take that viewpoint and have a normal daily life unless they were literally Warren Buffet and could blow their nose with $1000 bills, throw them directly into the trash, and not notice or care about the impact on their bank balance.

As to your second point- my personal belief was this game simply wasn't ready when it was released. They underestimated the amount of funding and development they would need to build what David envisioned. They hit the fire button prematurely, and hate to say it- but as much as crap I give CIG for not releasing Star Citizen yet, they're showing a smarter business strategy. If they DO release a product it's bound to be a huge success by comparison... and if they don't it's going to be one of those historical cases that sets precedence for international business law. Bank on it.

As to your last- I have spent roughly the same amount over the years on different things, too. Albeit with the intention that at any point in time they could shut the servers down, put up a bankruptcy notice and retire to the Bahamas. Seriously. Only recently I have decided that my wallet is closed to them until I see further improvement in this game- for me it's going to be Q4 that makes or breaks it.

I don't completely disagree with this, given how many of the games I've put money into have turned out, particularly MWO and NMS, but at the same time I do understand when a customer has expectations for what they have bought. I don't expect much from most people individually but I do expect people in society to follow the rules and not try to cheat or mislead me. Otherwise I would have a very frustrating life constantly worrying about being disenfranchised in some manner.

 

[Devari]

Right ho.

Best of luck. [up]

*EDIT*

While I'm at it, please try a bit harder to ensure the quotes you post up are made properly.
I've noticed several quotes attributed to me which contain text that I didn't write.

I cut and paste quote tags and enclose them as quote blocks so if I've made any mistakes let me know and I will happily correct them. I even take the time to go back and correct typos or grammatical errors in my posts so I am more than happy to correct any mistakes in the quotes. I've fixed the misquotes that I've noticed in the posts, for some reason it was using your quoteblock tag from an earlier post I had responded to instead of the one I intended to cut and paste.