Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Whether or not the LEP is value for money can only be evaluated once FDev call a halt to future plans for ED, and even then will be subjective, dependent upon whether the premium content delivered was content you wanted.

What can be said is that news updates are lacking, and FDev's obstinate silence really does them zero credit.
 
As to the timeline of the Horizons updates, I clearly remember that throughout the Horizons launch stream, Horizons was repeatedly described as "A years worth of content". :)

True. However, they never announced the content of 2.4 and just called it a surprise. After seeing they are late they could have just send us a postcard as surprise and be done with it. That's why I only hold them accountable for the delay of 2.3 which was about 6 months if I remember correctly. And since delaying stuff is pretty much business standard in software development I am not even upset about it.
 
True. However, they never announced the content of 2.4 and just called it a surprise. After seeing they are late they could have just send us a postcard as surprise and be done with it. That's why I only hold them accountable for the delay of 2.3 which was about 6 months if I remember correctly. And since delaying stuff is pretty much business standard in software development I am not even upset about it.

Delays are to be expected .. does anyone remember the original Kickstarter Alpha to release schedule .. that was optimistic at best. :D
 
It's the principle of it. I don't even own an LEP and can see this is a massive PR issue for FD. It doesn't matter if one person bought a $180 LEP or if hundreds of people bought it. The issue is about whether FD is going to address the issue adequately.

The problem with Battlefront 2 and lootboxes wasn't about how many people actually bought lootboxes. That was irrelevant. The issue was how EA was treating their customers.

It looks like most people who are upset about the way the LEP has been handled so far don't own the LEP.
 
Regardless of your own view that it's the consumer's responsibility it's completelt redundant as it's in conflict with the Consumer Rights Act of 2015 (previously Sale of Goods Act). You are entitled to interpret any which way you like, there is legislation that lays out clear onus of responsibility. Arguing black to be white is worthless. I'll base my view on the facts abd regulation in place. Not some guy's uninformed opinion.

They never announced or promised the amount or pace of paid expansions. So if it turns out that they'll stop ED development in a few years and you somehow feel like you didn't get your money's worth there is no court in the world who will help you with that. You would have every right to be pretty upset though. That's about all you get.
 
It looks like most people who are upset about the way the LEP has been handled so far don't own the LEP.

[gloat mode][smug mode] I own the £35 LEP from beta (yep, an absolute bargain), so have already got great value for money from it! [/gloat mode][/smug mode]

[moan mode] However, no news for eight months is very poor, and no engagement from the CM team on what is probably the third such topic-specific thread 'even more poor'. [/moan mode]

[Flimley mode] Hurrah for everything! [/Flimley mode]
 
[gloat mode][smug mode] I own the £35 LEP from beta (yep, an absolute bargain), so have already got great value for money from it! [/gloat mode][/smug mode]

[moan mode] However, no news for eight months is very poor, and no engagement from the CM team on what is probably the third such topic-specific thread 'even more poor'. [/moan mode]

[Flimley mode] Hurrah for everything! [/Flimley mode]

Personally, I think that DB saying "more is coming and most people can guess some of it" (paraphrasing) last week, was communication. But hey, maybe that's just me.
 
Can we agree at least that this is the actual timetable that FDEV published for Horizons at the time?

Considering that information is the same as what I quoted from the article, I would have no objection to accepting that timetable.

I really do not think you can in good faith compare an issue that has raised gambling psychology considerations for minors and that has had even legislation implications in certain countries, with a simple and very much time limited game content offer but hey.

That also isn't why Battelfront 2 lootboxes were criticized. "Gambling considerations for minors" and "legislation implications in certain countries" was not the main reason for the debacle. It was very clearly the way that EA was treating their customers. It was a very clear customer relations issue.
 
None of us can see into the future or anticipate what problems or progress FDEV are making or have made so far on new DLC. I'm sure as soon as they are able to give a potential launch date they will, but they might not be able to make an accurate guess yet and an incorrect guess would be yet another cause for meltdowns and pitchforks. Look at Horizons for an example of them not estimating the timeline correctly, these things happen.

In the words of Douglas Adams "We demand rigidly defined area's of doubt and uncertainty."
 
They have not delivered an adequate amount of paid content for the game, which is what the LEP provides to someone who purchased it. That is the issue here.

100% subjective.

Well, no it isn't.

If the LEP was bought at the time of Horizons, and cost about four times as much as that expansion, then it is entirely objective that it should have more value than that expansion pack alone.
 
That's just wrong. The UK court would help with that, because there is legislation in place as i have already pointed out. If you disagree with that legislation perhaps you should write to the UK government asking them reduce consumer protections? And let us all know if they agree to your request. Because trying to convince me that legislative protection doesn't exist when it tacitly does is a bit of a fool's errand my friend.

There's no legislative protection against losing if you gamble.
 
That's just wrong. The UK court would help with that, because there is legislation in place as i have already pointed out. If you disagree with that legislation perhaps you should write to the UK government asking them reduce consumer protections? And let us all know if they agree to your request. Because trying to convince me that legislative protection doesn't exist when it tacitly does is a bit of a fool's errand my friend.

What part of that Act do you think FDev are in breach of, and why?

Please show your working.

.....
 
None of us can see into the future or anticipate what problems or progress FDEV are making or have made so far on new DLC. I'm sure as soon as they are able to give a potential launch date they will, but they might not be able to make an accurate guess yet and an incorrect guess would be yet another cause for meltdowns and pitchforks. Look at Horizons for an example of them not estimating the timeline correctly, these things happen.

In the words of Douglas Adams "We demand rigidly defined area's of doubt and uncertainty."

I'd like to rep you twice for the reasonable comment and Douglas Adams.
 
You can feel that you're less likely to receive the intended content for sure, but that's an opinion. The law will not be concerned with your opinion (or anybody else's) though, it is concerned with fact and in this case, the facts are that the delivery period has not ended and there is no timescale specified within whatever the delivery period may ultimately be which ever indicated whether a particular part of the content would be delivered by a particular time to begin with.

A customer does not have to wait indefinitely for a product to be delivered, any more than they have to wait indefinitely to receive payment. Sorry but you really have no idea what you're talking about here.

As someone whose job involves understanding legislation and the way that it precisely delineates the threshold between legal and illegal behaviour, even though I don't pretend to be a consumer law professional I was hoping to have a look at the detail on which you are basing your certainty that there is a basis to claim that FDev have failed to deliver their obligations as per the contract involved here.

As someone whose job involves understanding legislation that not only stands up to close scrutiny of rights and responsibilities but also a reasonable interpretation of how those rights are applied I can see very clearly that you're trying to make an argument based entirely on technicalities. You're trying to argue what FD can "technically" get away with using a very favorable "interpretation" of how you understand a situation, I'm referring to what would be a reasonable standard based on a company acting in good faith. Your "interpretation" only works if you are giving every possible advantage to FD in this situation and that is not how consumer protection laws work.

I'm not trying to sound harsh but since we've so far managed to elicit from you that you don't own an LEP to begin with, don't live in the country whose laws you are citing and can't say specifically which laws you feel do apply to the situation other than the general consumer protections, which cannot possibly prove that a a contract has been breached since the contract concerned doesn't specify any of the benchmarks against which you're measuring it to begin with, I don't think we're likely to reach much by way of agreement.

I'm also not trying to sound harsh, but you're turning a very straightforward issue of a company selling a product and waiting indefinitely to actually deliver it as if a customer has no recourse or legitimate expectations in those situations. I can tell you that you are very much incorrect about the standard you are trying to apply here, and you are making an "argument" based on an impossible standard that tries to give FD every possible advantage in how you're "interpreting" the situation.

I certainly don't intend to spend my spare time wading through a ton of legislation; I was under the impression that you had done that yourself given the certainty that you seem to have that FDev could be held accountable in some way according to it.

I see, so you'd prefer to pretend we "don't know" an answer because you are unwilling to look it up yourself or apply common sense based on prior interactions with other customer relations issues. Sorry, I very clearly know how refunds work and how customers can obtain them, and it's nowhere near as complicated or difficult as you're suggesting.

I will say this though. In all my time posting here, there has been exactly one occasion when something that did fall at least loosely within my own professional remit was posted - it was in the Star Citizen

Sorry but am I the only poster here who remembers the mods asking that SC discussion is not continued in this thread? It seems that certain posters just can't help but refer to a topic which they should very clearly know is going to take this discussion off-topic. I have to wonder if this behavior on your part is intentional?
 
Last edited:
That's just wrong. The UK court would help with that, because there is legislation in place as i have already pointed out. If you disagree with that legislation perhaps you should write to the UK government asking them reduce consumer protections? And let us all know if they agree to your request. Because trying to convince me that legislative protection doesn't exist when it tacitly does is a bit of a fool's errand my friend.

So what would be your case?
"They forced me to buy the LEP because I thought everything would be cool and awesome and it didn't turn out as cool and awesome as I thought it will be?"
They didn't tell you the amount of paid expansions they'll release and they didn't tell you when they'll release them.
 
Personally, I think that DB saying "more is coming and most people can guess some of it" (paraphrasing) last week, was communication. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Yes I tend to agree, but that's also my point. It's not clear, and no one here knows.

None of us can see into the future or anticipate what problems or progress FDEV are making or have made so far on new DLC. I'm sure as soon as they are able to give a potential launch date they will, but they might not be able to make an accurate guess yet and an incorrect guess would be yet another cause for meltdowns and pitchforks. Look at Horizons for an example of them not estimating the timeline correctly, these things happen.

I'd be happy to have the date of when they will reveal more, and even that reveal doesn't need to have a launch date. They've managed to do (more than) this for the four tranches of Beyond, so why not for the LEP? The lack of news can be construed as there being nothing coming, which is why some are getting twitchy. I'm not in that camp, but the lack of information is clearly irritating many. And I'm fine with people being fine with 'no news'.

I know that FDev are quite conservative/restrained with how they promote upcoming features, and I understand and respect that, but no news for eight months is 'pushing it' in my opinion.
 
A customer does not have to wait indefinitely for a product to be delivered, any more than they have to wait indefinitely to receive payment. Sorry but you really have on idea what you're talking about here.
Umm, ok.
What "product" are you still waiting on as LEP buyer? What will make LEP as "delivered"?

I know that FDev are quite conservative/restrained with how they promote upcoming features, and I understand and respect that, but no news for eight months is 'pushing it' in my opinion.
Again with this nonsense. There were plenty of news and posters above repeatedly pointed them out to you. You just arbitrarily declare them "not news enough for your liking".
 
Last edited:
Devari,

Let's table the whole grind discussion, since it really is off-topic. I doubt I'll ever convince you that "it'll take longer, but you'll have fun," is a viable alternative to actually grinding, and you'll never convince me that I'm somehow suffering through a boring grind when I'm enjoying myself.

That's fine, we certainly have very different approaches to gameplay in Elite, but my point here was simply that I have chosen to take on many significant grinds (notably Engineering and Naval rank) which you have decided to avoid which certainly means we have had very different gaming experiences to draw on in Elite.

Here's where I disagree with this topic. Everything I've read and seen, including in the game itself, indicates to me that these new features are currently undergoing development, but are not presently the main focus of development.

If FD has been working hard on space legs, boarding actions and inhabited worlds this entire time, and have some significant progress to show us by late 2018/early 2019? Then I'm fine with that. I seriously doubt it's the case though, considering the low-quality and delays we've seen with Horizons content, the underwhelming Thargoid "content" and the quality of what we've gotten so far from Beyond. I really have trouble believing that with what we've seen from FD so far that Elite is being adequately developed.

One of the many ways Frontier demonstrates their inexperience with MMOs, especially the type they've created with Open Mode, is that they keep expecting mechanics intended to make player on NPC crimes fun and challenging, to actually deter player on player crime. What actually deters player on player crime is the low player density of the game, between the sheer size of inhabited space and Frontier's decision to go with a peer-to-peer network topology.

My issue goes far deeper than whether Elite has the proper architecture to support adequate player interactions, which is something that FD can't really "fix" at this stage. My issue here is that FD doesn't seem to properly understand their own game or rely on the community to provide useful feedback. They seem to "know" how they "want" the game to be played and this often has no relation to how the game is currently played or even how it has been designed to operate. The issue with the C&P rework wasn't just that it was misguided and ineffective, it was based on an understanding of the game that was fundamentally disconnected from the experiences described by players on these forums. Much like when FD arbitrarily decided to nerf gimbals, only to find that was utterly misguided due to the implications of the flight model and combat system the game has had since launch. FD quite honestly does not seem to understand their own game much of the time and that is a problem when trying to actually improve core gameplay features.

This lack of experience has created the numerous delays that has caused Horizons to be spread out over two years, and has added some of the planned features in Beyond to their development plan.

I would suggest here, as I have in other threads, that FD is certainly capable of producing good content for Elite when adequately supported with the resources they need, but these resources have not been provided during much of Elite's development due to FD's focus on other products. As a result I'm far more critical of the underlying reasons for why Elite isn't being properly developed than I am about FD's ability to make a good game, although admittedly I am not impressed by the way they have been using what limited resources they do have available, i.e., the Engineering rework and C&P rework in beyond were unnecessarily complicated and in many ways created more new problems than they "solved".
 
Umm, ok.
What "product" are you still waiting on as LEP buyer? What will make LEP as "delivered"?

Wrong language. It will by definition never be..."delivered"

3 content updates of the scope of Horizons 1.1, by the end of 2018, will however...bring things "up-to-date".
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom