Where is the paid 'content' LEP holder get for 'free'

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Well argued. I hope those things happen.

You may have exposed my cunning plan.

Sorry, I probably should have said nothing just to see if FD actually went with it, only to realize the mistake later.

That must have been difficult to admit. You are brave, but sharing is caring.

I am constantly surprised by how much I unintentionally spend on games over several years of making small purchases. As much as it pains me to see the actual total I do prefer to actually add it up now and then to remind me what my gaming experience has actually cost me in terms of real dollars because that forces me to reassess whether I actually got good value for the money I spent.
 
So to recap:

Premium content announcement at gamescom in 7 weeks time.
Premium content free for LEP CMDRs & confirmed delivery in 2018.
Premium content £40/$50 for everyone else - not LEP.
Premium content will contain new engineers offering dirty dives giving 250% increase based in Colonia.
Premium content will include atmospheres - lighting - rain - wind.
Premium content will include space legs - as first shown in the recent game engine trailer.

Have I missed anything?
Caveat: none of the above Premium Content will reach the value of the Lifetime Expansion Pass, apparently, so people will sue because lawyer-certified breach of "value" contract.
 
As it is, Devari, alone, accounts for nearly 20% of the 1,000 posts in this thread, more than double the post of the next most frequent poster and more than 4 times as many as other interested parties.

Citation needed. I would like to see a list of which posts you are referring to and a word count on those posts as well. I have made many short replies to individuals in this thread which are appearing as single posts which does not reflect the total amount of "argument" I've been making and will dramatically increase the total post count. You are using a "metric" that does not reflect the total amount of discussion in this thread, it only reflects the number of individuals that I have needed to make separate replies to.

All that does is pollute the message a thread like this should be sending and allows the dev's to dismiss it as yet another poopshow.

So your argument here is that I should post less simply because you think I've reached some arbitrary number of posts which is somehow more than I am entitled to?

Should Obsidian Ant also stop making videos because his videos represent a significant proportion of Elite-related commentary? Or should his opinions be dismissed simply because those videos reach a certain threshold of views or followers?

That entire suggestion that someone's argument should be arbitrarily limited or ignored simply because they happen to be consistently stating it on the fourms or any other medium is absurd. Effectively you are arguing that someone should be ignored or silenced simply because you don't like their argument and you are intentionally trying to supress discussion that you personally don't happen to agree with.
 
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Ok, this is getting silly.

The report does not say what you are telling everyone it does.

The 'promised content' is specifically to do with Horizons, not the LEP in general. This is not a matter of semantics.

Are you suggesting here that LEP content is not "promised content"? The Annual Report clearly states otherwise.
 
Are you suggesting here that LEP content is not "promised content"? The Annual Report clearly states otherwise.

Oh i missed that one.

Premium content confirmed for LEP clearly in Annual Report.
&
Premium content announcement at gamescom in 7 weeks time.
Premium content free for LEP CMDRs & confirmed delivery in 2018.
Premium content £40/$50 for everyone else - not LEP.
Premium content will contain new engineers offering dirty dives giving 250% increase based in Colonia.
Premium content will include atmospheres - lighting - rain - wind.
Premium content will include space legs - as first shown in the recent game engine trailer.
 
So your argument here is that I should post less simply because you think I've reached some arbitrary number of posts which is somehow more than I am entitled to?

Should Obsidian Ant also stop making videos because his videos represent a significant proportion of Elite-related commentary? Or should his opinions be dismissed simply because those videos reach a certain threshold of views or followers?
Did you just compare yourself to ObsidianAnt?
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That entire suggestion that someone's argument should be arbitrarily limited or ignored simply because they happen to be consistently stating it on the fourms or any other medium is absurd.

Effectively you are arguing that someone should be ignored or silenced simply because you don't like their argument and you are intentionally trying to supress discussion that you personally don't happen to agree with.
How's your ignore list coming along?
 
If they post more memes than actual information, that does tell you something.
Your use of "if" here shows you don't follow the devs' information-providing accounts. Heck, you don't even know how many memes they post [haha]

Give the ad hominem a rest please, you're just coming across as a troll with nothing better to say.
Hey, Devari has mentioned his ignore list many times in this thread.
 
Did you just compare yourself to ObsidianAnt?

No, I simply applied the ludicrous notion that someone's argument should be given less attention simply because it is being frequently stated to a well-known creator of Elite-related video commentary. Obsidian Ant simply happens to be the most well-known creator of Elite-related video commentary I am personally aware of but you can feel free to replace that reference with any other individual who has contributed to a significant amount of Elite-related discussion. Nowhere did I state that I felt I was personally similar to Obsidian Ant, especially given that I don't create any video content whatsoever and my discussion of Elite is limited almost entirely to these forums.

How's your ignore list coming along?

It's coming along just fine, thank you. Much like the in-game block player function it allows me to dramatically decrease the amount of trolling that I need to encounter.

Also, did you just compare choosing to ignore someone who is trolling or making a ridiculous semantic argument that derails a thread with Steathie's suggestion that my arguments should be dismissed simply due to reaching some arbitrary post count? You do realize that an ignore list is used to filter out non-productive discussion and Stealthie's suggestion was literally the opposite, that a frequently-stated argument should somehow be ignored or dismissed simply because it is being frequently stated?
 
That's the problem here. You are trying to use a purely semantic argument that is devoid of any real meaning. As an essential part of my job I deal with medicolegal issues that rely on both precise wording and are also held to a very real standard of intent in terms of how that is being applied. For example, if I am treating a patient who has been certified under the Mental Health Act for psychiatric reasons it's not enough for me to simply argue some technicality about what I might personally consider to be a "delusion" based entirely on some semantic argument. Even if that argument might have theoretical technical merit the review panel is going to question it in detail and I have to defend it not only on a theoretical but also a practical basis. If I have applied a purely semantic argument that is devoid of reasonable meaning and intent then the certification will be overturned. I'm referring here to very significant medicolegal issues here that relate to literally suspending a patient's rights against unlawful detention and confinement in a medical facility. I need to make a medicolegal argument that both follows the precise wording used in legislation and also has both clinical and practical merit as part of my job.

I honestly have no use or respect for a purely semantic argument because the standard I am required to apply in my own work requires arguments that have a far higher basis that goes beyond simple technicalities or semantics. It sounds like your experience with legal arguments is not held to that same standard, and if that is the case, I understand why you are tying to make such an argument but it is not anywhere near the standard that my own work is routinely held to.

Your role is constrained doubly (presumably) by the twin boundaries of medical ethics and a legislative framework which ultimately gives you the power to restrict individual's freedom if deemed necessary for the benefit of the patient.

Mine is concerned with the application of UK taxation law, which sets precise boundaries relating to the taxation treatment of income and is regularly tested via tax tribunals, all the way to the Appeal Courts.

I wouldn't say there's any doubt at all that your work requires higher standards than mine, mainly because I happen to think that the rights (and wellbeing) of the individual in a medical context are far more important than anything I'm involved in. I do think my work is important but let's not dress it up - there are far more important things than money.

I would however say that on the face of things, my own work would seem to be a far more immediately analogous environment to commercial contract law than yours and that's ultimately what we're discussing here; whether the agreement that people entered into with FDev is or is not being met.

The detail is critical and it doesn't really matter how distasteful you may find that; the issues really do boil down to what clause A of section 7, chapter 3 say and so on because that is how a judgement of whether a contract has been delivered or not is ultimately made. As I said, you can't talk about a contact not being delivered and then dismiss discussing the detail of it as a semantic argument that has no meaning, it's a bloody contract! Its entire purpose is to specify conditions.
 
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Your role is constrained doubly (presumably) by the twin boundaries of medical ethics and a legislative framework which ultimately gives you the power to restrict individual's freedom if deemed necessary for the benefit of the patient.

Mine is concerned with the application of UK taxation law, which sets precise boundaries relating to the taxation treatment of income and is regularly tested via tax tribunals, all the way to the Appeal Courts.

I wouldn't say there's any doubt at all that your work requires higher standards than mine, mainly because I happen to think that the rights (and wellbeing) of the individual in a medical context are far more important than anything I'm involved in. I do think my work is important but let's not dress it up - there are far more important things than money.

I would however say that on the face of things, my own work would seem to be a far more immediately analogous environment to commercial contract law than yours and that's ultimately what we're discussing here; whether the agreement that people entered into with FDev is or is not being met.

The detail is critical and it doesn't really matter how distasteful you may find that; the issues really do boil down to what clause A of section 7, chapter 3 say and so on because that is how a judgement of whether a contract has been delivered or not is ultimately made.

Lawyer speak for: "my opinion is better than yours". There's a reason everyone hates lawyers...

How about we get off semantics, again, and get back to the fact FD has said nothing specific about what LEP holders will receive in years?
 
Your role is constrained doubly (presumably) by the twin medical ethics and a legislative framework which ultimately gives you the power to restrict individual's freedom if deemed necessary for the benefit of the patient.

Mine is concerned with the application of UK taxation law, which sets precise boundaries relating to the taxation treatment of income and is regularly tested via tax tribunals, all the way to the Appeal Courts.

I wouldn't say there's any doubt at all that your work requires higher standards than mine, mainly because I happen to think that the rights (and wellbeing) of the individual in a medical context are far more important than anything I'm involved in. I do think my work is important but let's not dress it up - there are far more important things than money.

I would however say that on the face of things, my own work would seem to be a far more immediately analogous environment to commercial contract law than yours and that's ultimately what we're discussing here; whether the agreement that people entered into with FDev is or is not being met.

The detail is critical and it doesn't really matter how distasteful you may find that; the issues really do boil down to what clause A of section 7, chapter 3 say and so on because that is how a judgement of whether a contract has been delivered or not is ultimately made.

That does explain some of the basis for your arguments, in the sense that many individuals will legitimately argue semantic differences that can successfully apply to the issue being discussed. In fact the differences between "tax avoidance" and "tax evasion" often relate to following the precise letter of the law and those arguments can certainly come down to semantics as an important part of the argument. I also agree that, in the case of medial ethics, the standards are quite different than when someone is making an argument about how a company is required to treat a customer. Fundamentally the issue there is that there is a fiduciary duty that exists between a physician and patient and that requires the physician to act in a patient's best interest. Obviously FD has no obligation to act in their customers best interest and simply has to follow a specific set of standards. Nonetheless I always try to hold all of my legal arguments to as high a standard as possible simply because that is how I'm trained and I expect my arguments to be required to withstand close scrutiny on multiple levels. That may not be necessary for a tax argument but it certainly helps if it is possible to create a robust argument that goes beyond mere semantics or technicalities.

It's also worth noting that I have seen purely semantic arguments fail even when they are applied to narrowly-defined tax laws. In Canada there was a legal challenge for how medical residents should be categorized because the Canadian Revenue Agency was rejecting claims for student-related expenses. They tried to argue that because a medical residency is predominantly hospital-based work they should treat them as employees and not students. This was challenged by several residents in Ontario and a judge involved in the case took a very comprehensive view of the work that medical residents do. He not only ruled that medical residents could claim student status for tax purposes, but that they had the option of choosing whether to declare themselves as students or employees as they desired depending on what would be most advantageous to them. Not only was the CRA's semantic argument rejected but the process actually strengthened the rights that medical residents have under Canadian tax law. That is why even when dealing with a technical issue such as taxation it is always better to go beyond a purely semantic argument because when it is subjected to close scrutiny it will often fail.

As a further example, certain universities tried to respond to this by refusing to issue tuition credits for medical residents by claiming that their tuition payments should be classified as "enrollment fees" and not tuition. This was subsequently challenged, using the Ontario decision as precedent, and subsequently overturned for exactly the same reasons that were used in that legal argument. Again, the purely semantic argument failed there because it was not being made with a substantive basis. Essentially the argument was "I am not going to call you a student" and there was no legitimate basis for it.

The issue here is that if your argument is based entirely on semantics, you should expect it to fail when subjected to a reasonable standard, even if it is based on a narrow definition that relates to taxation or other regulations.
 
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Citation needed. I would like to see a list of which posts you are referring to and a word count on those posts as well. I have made many short replies to individuals in this thread which are appearing as single posts which does not reflect the total amount of "argument" I've been making and will dramatically increase the total post count. You are using a "metric" that does not reflect the total amount of discussion in this thread, it only reflects the number of individuals that I have needed to make separate replies to.

So your argument here is that I should post less simply because you think I've reached some arbitrary number of posts which is somehow more than I am entitled to?

Should Obsidian Ant also stop making videos because his videos represent a significant proportion of Elite-related commentary? Or should his opinions be dismissed simply because those videos reach a certain threshold of views or followers?

That entire suggestion that someone's argument should be arbitrarily limited or ignored simply because they happen to be consistently stating it on the fourms or any other medium is absurd. Effectively you are arguing that someone should be ignored or silenced simply because you don't like their argument and you are intentionally trying to supress discussion that you personally don't happen to agree with.

No.

Oddly enough, my "argument" is precisely what I wrote in the post you quoted; that bickering simply pollutes any message that might be sent to those who might find it enlightening.

But hey, let's bicker over that too.
You've already turned this thread into a dumpster fire which can be dismissed without concern.
 
Lawyer speak for: "my opinion is better than yours". There's a reason everyone hates lawyers...

How about we get off semantics, again, and get back to the fact FD has said nothing specific about what LEP holders will receive in years?

Good job I'm not a lawyer then isn't it? You do seem to be having difficulty with the difference between facts and opinions, in much the same way as Devari is having difficulty in differentiating between what he thinks is reasonable and what a contract specifies will be delivered, but yeah we can park that if you want. Fine by me.

So, yes you're right, they haven't said anything specific for a while about what LEP holders will receive.

Yeah that must suck really bad.

Yeah I agree it would be lovely if they told all the LEP holders more stuff. It would be lovely if they told everybody more stuff.

I've never disputed any of that to begin with. Not sure what I can add really; I've already said twice at least that communication could be far better and that it would be great if it was better.
 
Are you suggesting here that LEP content is not "promised content"? The Annual Report clearly states otherwise.

I am not suggesting anything. I am explicitly stating that the promised content referred to here:

...snip...

It just keeps getting better. That literally refers to "promised content".

is something which is specifically related to the deferral of Horizons income and is not related to the LEP in general. For the avoidance of doubt I'm also pointing out that it isn't a matter of semantics.

The mention of promised content you're referring to in the post in question is the only mention of promised content in the 2017 annual report.

I am therefore stating that the report does not say what you are telling people it does.

I trust that's all clear.
 
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