"Do they play their own game?!"

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I mean as in a person / group of people whose literal job is to just play the game as a customer would, engage in various features, and provide clear, directed, and professional feedback. These people need to also be in touch (as in familiar with, not necessarily in communication with) with the actual player base, and ensure that the way they play is consistent with said player base. The assumption they don't have this comes form the multitude of things that have been heavily modified / reworked after release due to being generally unpopular with actual players (see: pretty much everything regarding engineering), or things released that literally were 100% non-functional (see: guardian FSD booster).

there is no such play testing and that is not what professional testing means. Mind you, many players saw first versions of Engineers very good due of big variations it offered. It went bad after raise of obvious meta and least resistance grind paths. People could not accept medicore roll if they knew they can get highest one. Also nature of randomness put off casual players from trying.

You really can't make such conclusions from play testing. Neither it is tester's job. Players are subjective and have hundreds of opnions all across the board.

I mean as in a person / group of people whose literal job is to just play the game as a customer would, engage in various features, and provide clear, directed, and professional feedback. These people need to also be in touch (as in familiar with, not necessarily in communication with) with the actual player base, and ensure that the way they play is consistent with said player base. The assumption they don't have this comes form the multitude of things that have been heavily modified / reworked after release due to being generally unpopular with actual players (see: pretty much everything regarding engineering), or things released that literally were 100% non-functional (see: guardian FSD booster).

there is no such play testing and that is not what professional testing means. Mind you, many players saw first versions of Engineers very good due of big variations it offered. It went bad after raise of obvious meta and least resistance grind paths. People could not accept medicore roll if they knew they can get highest one. Also nature of randomness put off casual players from trying.

You really can't make such conclusions from play testing. Neither it is tester's job. Players are subjective and have hundreds of opnions all across the board.

 

[IronWatch]

This is a ludicrous thread. After reading 11 pages, I can state with certainty that a good half of you need to give your heads a shake and maybe start working fulltime. A professional does not lose their professional status because of how they spend their offtime.
I feel sorry for any FDev who has to read this and think 'well I have other games to play, things to take care of, a family and a job to wake up for'. Like just about any other functioning adult on the planet.

 

[h347h]

If the devs can't / wont play the actual game (which is fine, since they need the off-work time to actually be off-work), then they need to hire and pay a few play testers. Many things have pointed to a painful disconnect between the devs and the reality of how the game plays, and they need focused insight from someone who actually plays to resolve these issues. If the devs don't have time to actually play the game, then make it someone's / a few peoples' JOB to do so. Ideally people with a good mind for game design, a deep understanding of all the game's systems, and is well in-touch with the playerbase at large.

Is it so hard to understand that even if they did play the game they could totally have different opinions on what is good for the game from a business standpoint than a gamer stand point. That major line to draw here is a good reason they do a lot of things differently than players would.

 

[Frenotx]

Is it so hard to understand that even if they did play the game they could totally have different opinions on what is good for the game from a business standpoint than a gamer stand point. That major line to draw here is a good reason they do a lot of things differently than players would.

Playing the game would immediately reveal things that 100% don't work, like the Guardian FSD booster. Additionally, if the playtesters as I described are really that wildly out-of-touch with how actual customers play, then they're not doing their job right.

I'm not taking about bug-finding, technical functionality unit testers, btw- I'm talking about GAMEPLAY testers. The supertester program that world of warships uses is a good example.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Playing the game would immediately reveal things that 100% don't work, like the Guardian FSD booster. Additionally, if the playtesters as I described are really that wildly out-of-touch with how actual customers play, then they're not doing their job right.

I'm not taking about bug-finding, technical functionality unit testers, btw- I'm talking about GAMEPLAY testers. The supertester program that world of warships uses is a good example.

There is no such thing as gameplay tester really. Most of devs used their hunch and roll with what they got. Yes, some some more niche games will use some alpha group - actually FD wanted to use alpha players in such way, but decided it will slow them considerably down.

As for Guardian FSD booster, yes, that's example when actual playtesting has failed. And FD needs to improve that part, because they got quite a few such code errors lately, or get more QA testers.

 

[Frenotx]

There is no such thing as gameplay tester really. Most of devs used their hunch and roll with what they got. Yes, some some more niche games will use some alpha group - actually FD wanted to use alpha players in such way, but decided it will slow them considerably down.

As for Guardian FSD booster, yes, that's example when actual playtesting has failed. And FD needs to improve that part, or get more QA testers.

What on earth makes you think that no game companies use gameplay testers? Also, I'd be interested to see where FDev made those comments regarding an alpha group. If that's the case, someone should remind FDev of the saying "measure twice, cut once." Few things slow you down more than having to rework stuff over and over.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Whoooo boy...try running that one past the DE/Warframe crowd, hah! Hah. Hah.

I agree entirely, mind you. This is disturbingly reinforcing my belief that someone in the Fdev offices is actually part-timing as a Warframe developer on the side....

I dunno, but in general I get my WF drops together way more faster than in ED. WAY more. Like in: WF might take days - ED takes MONTHS. Try playing with friends. It usually increases your drops in several ways.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

What on earth makes you think that no game companies use gameplay testers? Also, I'd be interested to see where FDev made those comments regarding an alpha group. If that's the case, someone should remind FDev of the saying "measure twice, cut once." Few things slow you down more than having to rework stuff over and over.

Doesn't work in programming, sorry. It is very hard to design and code complex projects in vacuum, even if you do CI religiously and do testing all the time. Sometimes you really have to fail to realize it is not the direction you want to go.

You know why modern games are carbon copies of each other sometimes? That's why. People expect something familiar and rounded up from the start, and thus developers stick with tried and true methods. It lowers costs considerably.

It is amazing that ED has been allowed to experiment so freely with Beyond, which subjectively has brought some good results. No other sane company would even do that.

Developers do not use much of gameplay testers, they have some groups which play their games and give more casual feedback. However lot of developers really follow their own mind on designing things. Players aren't really very solid feedback source.

Said that - yes, I would like to see FD to have some sort of selected player group which can provide some early feedback. There are some commanders who can really do that well. Afaik FD have done this for some networking issues. I hope they can do it for gameplay cycles as well. Issue would be they would have to use NDA, otherwise people would go nuts about "why devs didn't try this, I saw them testing that".

 

[MottiKhan]

There is no such thing as gameplay tester really.

Gameplay Tester a real job. Average pay is $21.19 an hour. The top hourly rate posted is $100.00 an hour.

<edit> As I said earlier, I met one who's job it was to play the Wing Commander and other Origin games back before EA bought them. I didn't make that up.

Here's a job analysis from Indeed, a site which I use to hire people...

https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Game-Tester-Salaries

</edit>

 

[rOmiLaYu]

LOL I sighted at nature of complains how they claim to be universal and overarching and don't you dare to have different experience.

People somehow believe if they make appearance to be important on internet their feedback will be assigned some sort of priority. I dislike that approach. That's all. I personally do not feel grind, but that's just me.

As for a game loop, there is no specific normal one, although only higher grades have most difficult to find mats. And even then I saw buch of my own missions offering me 5th grade mats as rewards just yesterday.

There is simple truth about change - human mind is very biased how fair is drop rate of anything. We can't objectivise it. That's why it is a struggle to get it right.

Sigh.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Sigh.

Sorry to disappoint, just my opinion.

Have fun

 

[Frenotx]

Doesn't work in programming, sorry. It is very hard to design and code complex projects in vacuum, even if you do CI religiously and do testing all the time. Sometimes you really have to fail to realize it is not the direction you want to go.

You know why modern games are carbon copies of each other sometimes? That's why. People expect something familiar and rounded up from the start, and thus developers stick with tried and true methods. It lowers costs considerably.

It is amazing that ED has been allowed to experiment so freely with Beyond, which subjectively has brought some good results. No other sane company would even do that.

Developers do not use much of gameplay testers, they have some groups which play their games and give more casual feedback. However lot of developers really follow their own mind on designing things. Players aren't really very solid feedback source.

Said that - yes, I would like to see FD to have some sort of selected player group which can provide some early feedback. There are some commanders who can really do that well. Afaik FD have done this for some networking issues. I hope they can do it for gameplay cycles as well. Issue would be they would have to use NDA, otherwise people would go nuts about "why devs didn't try this, I saw them testing that".

Gameplay testing is very much a thing, and an important part of any large dev team. Google search "Gameplay tester job." Games are often similar to each other due to trying to exploit an already-proven niche. Speaking as someone who worked as a software developer in the past (not games), measure twice cut once is very much a thing to be worked towards. Obviously some bugs will always slip through, but they're generally very minor or extreme corner-cases that managed to endure the testing process, not things immediately obvious to huge sections of the user base when the use the software as they normally do.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Gameplay testing is very much a thing, and an important part of any large dev team. Google search "Gameplay tester job." Games are often similar to each other due to trying to exploit an already-proven niche. Speaking as someone who worked as a software developer in the past (not games), measure twice cut once is very much a thing to be worked towards. Obviously some bugs will always slip through, but they're generally very minor or extreme corner-cases that managed to endure the testing process, not things immediately obvious to huge sections of the user base when the use the software as they normally do.

I don't think gameplay testing is really meant to catch bugs. It's mean't to test the gameplay. Which is either done late in the process or with prototypes and testers in chains in a dungeon I imagine. Neither is probably very attractive: Playing with blocky rectangles requires testers with abstract understanding so they can give feedback - unless they get to play with polished stuff, but FD doesn't do that - and playing with the late developed content might be too late to address fundamental design problems.

Not sure what you get in tester qualities on the market but any outsider testing early, it might be a risk devs don't want to take.

 

[4gui4]

I read a lot here about bug reporting and playing the game and I must say that the response time is better ... much better now I was pleasantly surprised when I went through the competent channels. I believe that this is the way.

 

[Old Duck]

Gameplay Tester a real job. Average pay is $21.19 an hour. The top hourly rate posted is $100.00 an hour.

Information Minister is also a real job. You'll have to ask Eagleboy how much it pays.

Spoiler

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I don't think gameplay testing is really meant to catch bugs. It's mean't to test the gameplay. Which is either done late in the process or with prototypes and testers in chains in a dungeon I imagine. Neither is probably very attractive: Playing with blocky rectangles requires testers with abstract understanding so they can give feedback - unless they get to play with polished stuff, but FD doesn't do that - and playing with the late developed content might be too late to address fundamental design problems.

This ^
Testing gameplay (or workflow in my field) is intended to make sure the pieces fit together in a way that makes sense. It'll throw up some of the bugs, sure, but that's not it's primary purpose. Testing it early is difficult because you don't have all the pieces and often it's not until you have the jigsaw completed that you realize that the picture is ugly. At that point, the developer has two choices - either put some bandaids over the worst bits and release what you have, or throw the whole thing out and start again, knowing that you'll be months late on the project.

In an open-world game like ED there are so many different styles of play - even if they follow the same gameplay loop - that it's incredibly difficult to create something that works for everyone.

 

[Stigbob]

Information Minister is also a real job. You'll have to ask Eagleboy how much it pays.

Russian bots are really cheap.

 

[Ezzy]

Where does the assumption they don't have playtesters actually come from ?.

Too many issues with basic GUI and QOL things regarding the very basics of the gameplay loop. I don't understand how anything like that could even make into production, let alone be left in there for years.

By making the daily "grind" (making money, fitting, powerplay, mining, gathering materials, buy/sell stuff, anything regarding Thargoids or Guardians etc.) unintuitive, click-heavy, unrewarding and just frustrating in general, your players wear out before they even get to the "real meat" of the game you have in the pipeline for years. I can't remember another game that has outsourced so much of their lack of features to third parties via API's.
I'm amazed anyone on consoles can play this.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Too many issues with basic GUI and QOL things regarding the very basics of the gameplay loop. I don't understand how anything like that could even make into production, let alone be left in there for years.

By making the daily "grind" (making money, fitting, powerplay, mining, gathering materials, buy/sell stuff, anything regarding Thargoids or Guardians etc.) unintuitive, click-heavy, unrewarding and just frustrating in general, your players wear out before they even get to the "real meat" of the game you have in the pipeline for years. I can't remember another game that has outsourced so much of their lack of features to third parties via API's.
I'm amazed anyone on consoles can play this.

Lot of subjective assumptions in your claims. You have issues granted. That's whole takeaway.

As I said yes some devs might involve gameplay testing but mostly devs test on their community, like it or not. Because of game's scope some extra gameplay testing for ED - especially how subjective each person's opinion is - might be fruitless effort.

Information Minister is also a real job. You'll have to ask Eagleboy how much it pays.

I also heard being passive aggresive towards opinions you don't like on internet is also a thing. I guess it doesn't pay in money though.

 

[Stigbob]

Too many issues with basic GUI and QOL things regarding the very basics of the gameplay loop. I don't understand how anything like that could even make into production, let alone be left in there for years.

By making the daily "grind" (making money, fitting, powerplay, mining, gathering materials, buy/sell stuff, anything regarding Thargoids or Guardians etc.) unintuitive, click-heavy, unrewarding and just frustrating in general, your players wear out before they even get to the "real meat" of the game you have in the pipeline for years. I can't remember another game that has outsourced so much of their lack of features to third parties via API's.
I'm amazed anyone on consoles can play this.

Not being led by the hand was a selling point for a lot of people, search functionality has improved massively already and IIRC there's been DEV talk of an in game reference source in focused feedback.

As for bugs given how many playing styles there are plus tech differences some will always slip through, it's not a big deal in the age of the internet as you can bang out a hotfix.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with assuming they don't have playtesters.