Hardware & Technical Virpil WarBRD, T-50 Throttle and Constellation grip video review

[BurnyBurns]

Wait, what? You're against consumers getting a choice over which gimbal they want to mount because consumers make different choices about how they want to mount their kit?

I think you misunderstand: I'm pointing out the lack of communication towards the customer about what exactly the difference is between two similarily looking, nearly identically priced products with - on the first glance - nearly the same capabilities.

It's not what I expect from a new company out to produce high quality products, earn money and pay their employees. If the above is the case, why don't they consolidate their portfolio? Why would they maintain two different products just for the heck of it, in the end being able to produce less of both and have less support for each individually? Thing is, my assumption was wrong, because there is a crucial piece of information missing from Virpil's product pages, that absolutely should be there. Look at Zeeman's posts: It's the tiny bit of information about how one of the bases' mechanics are explicitely designed for non-extended use, despite them selling the mount adaptor for using it on their mount, which implciates it can be used with extension.

Also: Absolutistic statements from strangers about what people have/must/should do and what's best for them pill me off - as in the post to which I responded. It's nobodies business how I or others mount my/their hardware, especially since ergonomics and space limitations are very subjective and individual things. If it' supposed to be a well meant suggestion, I'll happily take it together with explanations of what they improve and how. But that post argued a completely different case than me anyway. See above: I don't want Virpil to only sell a single base without giving options. I want to know why they sell two different ones and explain what the exact difference is.

 

[Zeeman]

...It's the tiny bit of information about how one of the bases' mechanics are explicitely designed for non-extended use, despite them selling the mount adaptor for using it on their mount, which implciates it can be used with extension.
...

On this specific point, keep in mind that the desk mounts are adjustable, which means the stick and throttle can be placed at any level you like, thus it does not really imply that it can be used with the extension.

As an example, I would find my throttle/stick mounted at desk height uncomfortable, it's simply too high, but the throttle and WarBRD, at what would be a comfortable height would be made super easy with VPC's mounts - no extension needed.

Now, I do agree with you, in that there does need to be more information and better overall communication, though I'm willing to let that fly for now, it's a new company, and their focus is on getting the products right, the information side will come. It's clear the polish is not there yet, but I am confident it will come.

Z...

 

[BurnyBurns]

On this specific point, keep in mind that the desk mounts are adjustable, which means the stick and throttle can be placed at any level you like, thus it does not really imply that it can be used with the extension.

If you read your own sentence again, paying attention to what the bolded part means... that implies exactly that the WarBRD can also be used with the extension, doesn't it? "Any level" includes low placements requiring an extension. Noobifier even mentions compatibility with the extensions in their follow up video (3:56). Disclaimer being that it requires the stronger springs:

[video=youtube_share;z-uplr6AXZU]https://youtu.be/z-uplr6AXZU[/video]

For me it currently looks mostly like both bases have an extraordinary overlap in features and capabilities then. Which makes it all the more important to communicate that the T50 base is geared for use with extensions and the WarBRD for use without extensions, with short extensions/less resistiance for long ones or for desk use. That's a pretty subtle product differentiation in the best of cases though.

Now, I do agree with you, in that there does need to be more information and better overall communication, though I'm willing to let that fly for now, it's a new company, and their focus is on getting the products right, the information side will come. It's clear the polish is not there yet, but I am confident it will come.

Z...

They're pretty responsive to some internet channels, like reddit and apparently the DCS forums. Nagging them a bit about missing information will probably help them to see which information is missing.

 

[Zeeman]

If you read your own sentence again, paying attention to what the bolded part means... that implies exactly that the WarBRD can also be used with the extension, doesn't it? "Any level" includes low placements requiring an extension. Noobifier even mentions compatibility with the extensions in their follow up video (3:56). Disclaimer being that it requires the stronger springs:



For me it currently looks mostly like both bases have an extraordinary overlap in features and capabilities then. Which makes it all the more important to communicate that the T50 base is geared for use with extensions and the WarBRD for use without extensions, with short extensions/less resistiance for long ones or for desk use. That's a pretty subtle product differentiation in the best of cases though.

On this specific point, keep in mind that the desk mounts are adjustable, which means the stick and throttle can be placed at any level you like, thus it does not really imply that it can be used with the extension.



They're pretty responsive to some internet channels, like reddit and apparently the DCS forums. Nagging them a bit about missing information will probably help them to see which information is missing.

I have actually nagged them bit on the DCS forums, but I think they missed it. May have to quote myself and point it out again... I'm actually quite excited about getting mine.

Z...

 

[lysan]

[video=youtube;gEvXU5ZdkAo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEvXU5ZdkAo[/video]

 

[sovapid]

Got my WarBRD with the Constellation grip over the weekend. It is pretty big for desktop use, height wise.

Not sure this is gonna work. Will try it for a bit, might go for some monstertech mounts.... Down the rabbit hole...

 

[sovapid]

Virpil compared to a T16000 for desktop use:

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Got my WarBRD with the Constellation grip over the weekend. It is pretty big for desktop use, height wise.

Not sure this is gonna work. Will try it for a bit, might go for some monstertech mounts.... Down the rabbit hole...

Monstertechs are just way overpriced.

I would much rather spend $40 on the virpil mount rather than $130 for a monstertech.

You could buy three of them for the price of one.

 

[Der Zeitgeist]

I just got my WarBRD/Constellation Delta stick today. Ergonomics-wise, it will take some getting used to, as it is pretty large, as sovapid noted. I may try to mod the grip in the coming days, maybe with some foam rubber ring or something, to a get a slightly higher palm rest, so I can better reach the hat switches on the grip.

The WarBRD base, however, it's just a completely different league than any other plasticky joystick I ever owned. I opened it up to switch out the cams for a slightly lighter profile. As soon as you open up the base the first thing you notice is the smell of oil, like in a machine shop. Inside, it's just full metal period. No plastics anywhere. The build quality is just insane.

I only did a short test in Elite today, and it's easily the most precise stick I ever owned. I used a CH Figherstick until now, and the difference is immediately obvious. You move the stick a few millimeters, and you get the same amount of precise control on screen. No wobbles, no deadzones, it's just remarkable.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Interesting points about the lubrication.

In comparison the t-50 gimbal is completely dry.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Monstertechs are just way overpriced.

I would much rather spend $40 on the virpil mount rather than $130 for a monstertech.

You could buy three of them for the price of one.

No, they really aren't. They're over-specified, but the price is actually reasonable. I build basically copies of their design. Adding up the price of the parts alone, that is, the extrusions, clamps, screws and aluminium parts easily adds up to 40€-50€. One of these clamps costs ~20€. And I doubt they'll drive the price down significantly due to bulk orders. While most of that are standard parts just cut to length, their plates are custom made, which adds work hours.

You're right though. If one can live with a less fancy and over-speced solution, the Virpil mounts are far more reasonable investments. The key advantage of the Monstertech mounts are the clamps they use. I've yet to see a better, more stable and quick solution for attaching a HOTAS mount to a table and detaching it again. But that advantage is most notable if you often have to stow the mounts away.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I'l concede that point, but as history shows.

No matter how lauded a company is for over engineering a product is, someone will come by, do it to a tighter spec for half the price and suddenly the first company doesn't have any customers what so ever.

For the longest time now Monstertech's has been the only HOTAS mount product around outside of DIY.

Personally I just banged together some pieces of wood in an afternoon and spent less than $30 for both.
I'm setup in a dedicated corner anyways.

 

[Zeeman]

Got my WarBRD with the Constellation grip over the weekend. It is pretty big for desktop use, height wise.

Not sure this is gonna work. Will try it for a bit, might go for some monstertech mounts.... Down the rabbit hole...

Why not get the Virpil ones? Way cheaper, and extremely well made. Not taking away from Monster Tech - they look to be an epic product,, but damn, the pricing difference...

No, they really aren't. They're over-specified, but the price is actually reasonable. I build basically copies of their design. Adding up the price of the parts alone, that is, the extrusions, clamps, screws and aluminium parts easily adds up to 40€-50€. One of these clamps costs ~20€. And I doubt they'll drive the price down significantly due to bulk orders. While most of that are standard parts just cut to length, their plates are custom made, which adds work hours.

I agree with you there. the killer, for me, and the thing that stopped my order dead in it's tracks was shipping. Shipping to Aus was very close to the price of the mounts themselves. Nothing Monster Tech can do about that, as someone that is part of a business where shipping is an important part of the business, I can testify as to how hard it can be to get a good deal on shipping, unless you have huge volume to begin with. Of course, you don't get huge volumes without first being competetive on shipping... And the vicious circle goes as such.

We got lucky, happened to sit down at a table at a bar whilst watching a World Cup game, and a courier company rep (as in one that manages Asia/Pacific, so fairly high up) was sat across from us. A few beers later... Deal struck.

Moral of the story? Drink beer, improve your business!

Z...

 

[NascentChemist]

The only blocker for me is the lack of an analog stick on the throttle. I use one on the F.16000 to control lateral thrust. Though I suppose I could get the Constellation to compensate...

It would also be a fairly arduous transition. I'm used to using the hat switches on the Thrustmaster for nearly everything. For all the complaints about the TM joystick base buttons being useless, it seems the Virpil throttle faces the same issue.

A bit off topic, but anyone know of recent developments with the VKB throttle?

 

[Zeeman]

The only blocker for me is the lack of an analog stick on the throttle. I use one on the F.16000 to control lateral thrust. Though I suppose I could get the Constellation to compensate...

It would also be a fairly arduous transition. I'm used to using the hat switches on the Thrustmaster for nearly everything. For all the complaints about the TM joystick base buttons being useless, it seems the Virpil throttle faces the same issue.

A bit off topic, but anyone know of recent developments with the VKB throttle?

There is a version of the T50 throttle in the works with an analog thumbstick - I'm waiting for that one.

As for the useless buttons on the base - I'd agree, except...

The T16000M does not match any other stick for number of bindings on the stick. If it had as many bindings as, say, the warthog, ANd it had the base buttons, fine.

The VPC T50 has as many (more, actually) bindings as the CH Pro throttle *on the grip*, which, for me, right at this second, is the best throttle for ED that I can buy, with money. The VPC then adds a heap of buttons on the base in addition to this. Basically, I'm not losing buttons at my fingertips for buttons on the base.

The layout of the T16000M buttons also makes it kinda hard to "feel your way" around them in the heat of battle. The VPC buttons are easier to navigate by feel, meaning a VR pilot is more likely to be able to get a hang of the locations quickly. Having said that, price difference, and I still think the T16000M is probably the best bang for buck stick out there for those with a limited budget, but looking for an accurate stick.

Z...

 

[SharkBiscuit]

There is a version of the T50 throttle in the works with an analog thumbstick - I'm waiting for that one.

As for the useless buttons on the base - I'd agree, except...

The T16000M does not match any other stick for number of bindings on the stick. If it had as many bindings as, say, the warthog, ANd it had the base buttons, fine.

The VPC T50 has as many (more, actually) bindings as the CH Pro throttle *on the grip*, which, for me, right at this second, is the best throttle for ED that I can buy, with money. The VPC then adds a heap of buttons on the base in addition to this. Basically, I'm not losing buttons at my fingertips for buttons on the base.

The layout of the T16000M buttons also makes it kinda hard to "feel your way" around them in the heat of battle. The VPC buttons are easier to navigate by feel, meaning a VR pilot is more likely to be able to get a hang of the locations quickly. Having said that, price difference, and I still think the T16000M is probably the best bang for buck stick out there for those with a limited budget, but looking for an accurate stick.

Z...

this virpil stuff is looking like the real deal!
I'm keen to see what the Throttle with thumb stick is like. Personally, I've tried the CH pro throttle, the T16000M Throttle & the new x56 throttle.

For me, the CH wins hands down because:

• the analog stick is a THUMB stick, not forefinger like the T16000M. Thumbs more precise, multi-task better.
• Every control is reachable with none, or minimal grip change required. The x56 sucks for this IMHO and i have big hands!

sure, it feels less than smooth, and looks old skool, but when my new x56 had all the old known issues I was so relieved to be able to return it, and fall in love with the ch throttle again.

so bring on the virpil one - I really hope they achieve those key design goals in particular.

btw, thumbstick on the throttle for strafe thrusts essential for me. my brain does not compute when on the same hand as the main control stick.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

There is a version of the T50 throttle in the works with an analog thumbstick - I'm waiting for that one.

As for the useless buttons on the base - I'd agree, except...

The T16000M does not match any other stick for number of bindings on the stick. If it had as many bindings as, say, the warthog, ANd it had the base buttons, fine.

The VPC T50 has as many (more, actually) bindings as the CH Pro throttle *on the grip*, which, for me, right at this second, is the best throttle for ED that I can buy, with money. The VPC then adds a heap of buttons on the base in addition to this. Basically, I'm not losing buttons at my fingertips for buttons on the base.

The layout of the T16000M buttons also makes it kinda hard to "feel your way" around them in the heat of battle. The VPC buttons are easier to navigate by feel, meaning a VR pilot is more likely to be able to get a hang of the locations quickly. Having said that, price difference, and I still think the T16000M is probably the best bang for buck stick out there for those with a limited budget, but looking for an accurate stick.

Z...

I wish it was so, but I have never heard or read anything from Virpil about this throttle version with an analog thumbstick.
Is this a quick mod, or an actual new product, we don't know.
If it is the latter then it will be at least two years away. I'm just not that patient...
If it is a mod, something that the top thumb hat kind of looks like it could be, then that should be something I can swap in later.

this virpil stuff is looking like the real deal!
I'm keen to see what the Throttle with thumb stick is like. Personally, I've tried the CH pro throttle, the T16000M Throttle & the new x56 throttle.

For me, the CH wins hands down because:

• the analog stick is a THUMB stick, not forefinger like the T16000M. Thumbs more precise, multi-task better.
• Every control is reachable with none, or minimal grip change required. The x56 sucks for this IMHO and i have big hands!

sure, it feels less than smooth, and looks old skool, but when my new x56 had all the old known issues I was so relieved to be able to return it, and fall in love with the ch throttle again.

so bring on the virpil one - I really hope they achieve those key design goals in particular.

btw, thumbstick on the throttle for strafe thrusts essential for me. my brain does not compute when on the same hand as the main control stick.

You should consider the Warthog throttle...
It has at most five normal momentary buttons, only three of which is on the grip itself, and the main one under your pinky is so hard I have to shift so I push it with the ring finger.
The main POV is under your index finger, and oddly so heavy I activate the sideways movements with my wrist..

The rest are toggle switches.
And hardly any games support toggle switches out of the box, not even DCS apart from the actual warthog a10 sims.
So if you want to fly anything else you need to heavily program and script the unit so you can even start to use the buttons, or you are forced to activate each toggle twice.

Oh, and most of the buttons on the base are often under hand of the actual throttle grip, so they swap being easily accessible to near impossible to reach depending on where the throttle itself is positioned...
And if you like me use the throttle for helicopters as a collective, well you don't have the luxury of moving that around.
The collective needs to be where it needs to be for the situation, and if it's not. You die five seconds later.

I don't even try to use this for Elite. The virpil throttle at least seems to have all the necessary buttons and if they are like the ones on the mongoose, are just great, easy to engage for hours of play, with good tactile feel.

Anyhoo, got a throttle and delta stick on order, no idea when I'l get them though..
They claimed to deliver next month but don't really dare to hope.

Also consider getting a second t-50 gimbal and use a twin stick setup for Elite.

In the mean time, I'm also still using the CH throttle for elite.
It just is too noisy for DCS, especially for using as a collective.

 

[Zeeman]

I wish it was so, but I have never heard or read anything from Virpil about this throttle version with an analog thumbstick.
Is this a quick mod, or an actual new product, we don't know.
If it is the latter then it will be at least two years away. I'm just not that patient...
If it is a mod, something that the top thumb hat kind of looks like it could be, then that should be something I can swap in later.


...

But it is so... It was stated when the throttle was announced, and has been stated several times since by Virpil reps.

Z...

 

[TorTorden_VR]

But it is so... It was stated when the throttle was announced, and has been stated several times since by Virpil reps.

Z...

I'm not doubting you.

I just got too impatient to wait for anything.

Besides I'm getting the delta stick with the thumbsitck as well, and I have intentions of ordering a second t-50 gimbal when they become available again.

Curious if I should also get another delta stick or just run t-50 right handed and delta left handed..

Decisions decisions.

 

[Zeeman]

I'm not doubting you.

I just got too impatient to wait for anything.

Besides I'm getting the delta stick with the thumbsitck as well, and I have intentions of ordering a second t-50 gimbal when they become available again.

Curious if I should also get another delta stick or just run t-50 right handed and delta left handed..

Decisions decisions.

Fair enough. I have a CH Pro throttle for one of my rigs, and I make do with the Warthog throttle for the other (I explore when I use that system to minimise the need to deal with the throttle). Basically, I am in no rush - if I was buying something right this second though...

Z...