How to chase down Viper

[Theaghan Black]

Any "furball" encounter (many vs. many) will immediately turn into lots of seperate engagements that "explode" into space as each encounter goes along a linear vector at top speed, leaving you with an empty conflict zone...

There's nothing FD can do about that if not adding limits to the location (please, no! it would be an arena).

But on the other side, if I'm the Viper pilot, I'm going to use my speed as an advantage (FA OFF/ON, I don't care) and with speed this means that the fight is going to move away from the original location.

This is how it works on simulators...

 

[.Stu.]

Won't this be mitigated to a degree when you can upgrade drives and the like?

So if you want to chase down prey you'd have to have a faster boat than the prey has?

Without changing game mechanics that seems reasonable> Pirates didn't sail about in fishing boats did they? they would have had faster boats than the cargo vessels and probably hoped they had faster boats than the Navy too!!

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

There's nothing FD can do about that if not adding limits to the location (please, no! it would be an arena).

Agreed on the arena. But with FAOff-Boost bleeding off, a straight run wouldn't win you anything, and you'd (eventually) swing around to bring your weapons to bear.

Yes, you could still go backward, but the "exploding" effect would be much less pronounced.

Pirates didn't sail about in fishing boats did they? they would have had faster boats than the cargo vessels and probably hoped they had faster boats than the Navy too!!

That's why a Cobra is a good pirate ship, an Anaconda is... only to a point, and a Lakon 9 (despite being heavily armed) isn't.

But if you take into account that the pirate already needs a cargo scanner, a jump tracker, and a drive interdictor, leaving little space for much else, you'll basically end up handing the advantage to the running-away ship again.

 

[Commander Blunthead]

I had trouble chasing down an NPC Viper that was running away, while I was using the FA off in my Cobra. I would slowly get closer but then he would turn before I was really in effective gun range, which forced me to turn, which again forced me to boost to get the speed in the new direction again. It was a difficult chase even with me using FA off and my opponent not doing it.

 

[Theaghan Black]

Agreed on the arena. But with FAOff-Boost bleeding off, a straight run wouldn't win you anything, and you'd (eventually) swing around to bring your weapons to bear.

Yes, you could still go backward, but the "exploding" effect would be much less pronounced.

I don't think the current Viper needs to escape. It can fight against everything and run away if has not the advantage (if outnumbered for example).
Probably the Eagle is the only one that can worry it, but in that case it (the faster ship) can always "drag n bag" the enemy with the help of a wingman.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYS3TJ5BWs8)

I had trouble chasing down an NPC Viper that was running away, while I was using the FA off in my Cobra. I would slowly get closer but then he would turn before I was really in effective gun range, which forced me to turn, which again forced me to boost to get the speed in the new direction again. It was a difficult chase even with me using FA off and my opponent not doing it.

I'm in a Cobra at the moment, and I totally ignore Viper NPC.

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

I don't think the current Viper needs to escape.

But it's not (just) the Viper we're talking about.

Assume a player-on-player fight, stoked by some kind of mission going on: You (a pack of fighters) need to take down a player, who happens to fly an Anaconda.

The concept of the game is that you should wolfpack the 'conda, using speed and maneuverability to stay away from its guns while whittling him down.

He FAOff-Boosts, puts all pips into shields and weapons (which are turreted for convenience), then swings around to fire at you.

With the 'conda going at its top boost speed (what's that, 280?), you simply won't be able to maneuver away from its guns. Your superior speed and maneuverability are mostly void. And he'll shoot you down like turkeys.

If the boost speed would bleed off, he'd be going much slower, building up heat and needing pips in engines to re-boost (for which he'd have to turn away from you, providing you with free hits on his tail). He'd be in a much tighter spot.

 

[dobbo]

Please forgive my ignorance but how the game play now degraded by the FAff without bleed against FAff with bleed?

I can see that when we can fit different engines then it will be an effect. But with the same engines there will be an optimal boost pattern, and if the fleer (is that a word?) hit that pattern there is no way of catching it.

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

I can see that when we can fit different engines then it will be an effect. But with the same engines there will be an optimal boost pattern, and if the fleer (is that a word?) hit that pattern there is no way of catching it.

See above -- he'd be building up heat, and requiring four pips in engines to really make a break for it. And he isn't able to fire at you as well.

Or he could FAOff, swing around, give full pips to shields and weapons, and do fire at you -- but he couldn't be also flying away as fast as you can go forward, so you could close the distance and maneuver.

Rock, paper, scissors.

 

[dobbo]

See above -- he'd be building up heat, and requiring four pips in engines to really make a break for it. And he isn't able to fire at you as well.

Or he could FAOff, swing around, give full pips to shields and weapons, and do fire at you -- but he couldn't be also flying away as fast as you can go forward, so you could close the distance and maneuver.

Rock, paper, scissors.

But you don't need four pips to engines to get to maximum velocity. So one can just turn off the engines to speed the cooling down process.

I am assuming here that escape is the objective and that you have a proper escape vector. The race is to get your heat down and jump before the pursuer gets back in range.

 

[Clifford]

(That's why I, and several others, consider the non-bleed-off FAOff-Boost to be broken.)

Even if you change FA-off boosting , you'd still have the same "problem":
Identical ships = identical speeds

Changing FA-off behavior won't Change the fact that the only way to catch a Fast ship is to use something Faster-er.

 

[Theaghan Black]

But it's not (just) the Viper we're talking about.

Assume a player-on-player fight, stoked by some kind of mission going on: You (a pack of fighters) need to take down a player, who happens to fly an Anaconda.

The concept of the game is that you should wolfpack the 'conda, using speed and maneuverability to stay away from its guns while whittling him down.

He FAOff-Boosts, puts all pips into shields and weapons (which are turreted for convenience), then swings around to fire at you.

With the 'conda going at its top boost speed (what's that, 280?), you simply won't be able to maneuver away from its guns. Your superior speed and maneuverability are mostly void. And he'll shoot you down like turkeys.

If the boost speed would bleed off, he'd be going much slower, building up heat and needing pips in engines to re-boost (for which he'd have to turn away from you, providing you with free hits on his tail). He'd be in a much tighter spot.

This is something I really would like to try out.

It would need coordination between the pack's members: the targeted one will full pipe on shields (until he has to break away) and the other with full power to the weapons.

Something that makes me remember a predator pack, against a stronger animal.

BTW it should be really that hard to take down an Anaconda.

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

@ dobbo, Clifford:

You are looking at escape only. But it's much more than that -- it's complete control over the engagement. You strike when you want, you get away when you want.

FAOff puts you in a higher power state. Imagine a button in a flight combat sim that puts you immediately at a higher altitude and a higher speed.

And unless I am seriously mistaken (I've got to read all those design documents one day...), the idea was for FAOff to not give you definite advantages over FAOn. You should be able to pull some maneuvers that wouldn't be possible without, which would give you some advantage, but not an "I win" button.

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

This is something I really would like to try out.

In a Sidewinder, I was camping the low-intensity conflict zone at Eranin 3, which frequently sports two Fed Anacondas. About one case in ten, an Anaconda gets its drives shot to hell while boosting away, which gives you an approximation of the situation. (At least, the best I could get, being a single player and all.)

Yes, even an NPC Anaconda is very difficult to tackle when in a Sidewinder (plus some NPC fighters assisting). But it involves maneuvering, rolling, pitching, vertical thrusters, distance management, power management, and it's challenging, and fun.

As soon as an Anaconda drifts away like described above, you're in for a half-hour chase while trying to slowly match / converge vectors without getting shot to hell.

It's boring, and that's against an Anaconda with disabled drives that cannot even shoot back properly as it's rolling out of control (as opposed to one that's constantly turning to face you and shooting you to bits).

I.e., the target becomes much harder to kill after its drives are disabled, simply because of its high-speed linear drift (a.k.a. FAOff boost). By the time you're done, you're several hundred km away from the conflict zone.

The conclusions for overall balance should be obvious.

 

[dobbo]

@ dobbo, Clifford:

You are looking at escape only. But it's much more than that -- it's complete control over the engagement. You strike when you want, you get away when you want.

FAOff puts you in a higher power state. Imagine a button in a flight combat sim that puts you immediately at a higher altitude and a higher speed.

And unless I am seriously mistaken (I've got to read all those design documents one day...), the idea was for FAOff to not give you definite advantages over FAOn. You should be able to pull some maneuvers that wouldn't be possible without, which would give you some advantage, but not an "I win" button.

Thanks, that's clearer now. And I agree with you, I don't want a push to win button either.

 

[Rog]

Chased an NPC Viper in my Cobra the other day from a nav beacon.

After about 15 minutes (yes, really) and not really getting much joy apart from the odd laser hit when he occasionally slowed, a thought occurred.

Was mostly in FA off to keep up, so went silent running and dropped a heatsink.

Baddie NPC assumed I'd gone, changed course and slowed. Boom.

Not much in the way of bounty, but quite satisfying.

 

[spunkbun]

If you don't damage his ship enough to prevent him from escaping you clearly don't aim well enough. For everyone complaining about the FA-off constant speed I can just say: Man the f up. If it were up to me you would be able to increase your speed indefinitely until you hit supercruise speed. If anything add a gadget that allows you to track targets in supercruise and even subspace or whatever it's called in ED. I think the viewpoint that you should be able to catch your prey is completely ridiculous.

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

If you don't damage his ship enough to prevent him from escaping you clearly don't aim well enough.

Strong words. Elite doesn't track statistics, and I know the comparison is lacking in more than one aspect, but I don't have issues with my aim. (I'd rather have posted WarThunder statistics, but... that game doesn't track them either.)

For everyone complaining about the FA-off constant speed I can just say: Man the f up.

It has nothing to do with me being "wimp" or "not up to it". As I said, I initially told others pretty much the same as you did. I thought FAOff was something like "noob mode off".

The problem is that, not only does controlling your craft become more difficult, it also becomes much more boring because you're no longer pulling and pushing at your joystick in dogfight heroics, but instead you are touching it ever so slightly, minutely adjusting your movement vectors, to get into a firing position on your target before his shields are back to 100%.

And no matter how "cool" you think this might be, it isn't. Partially because doing it against NPCs already far exceeds the spatial cognition of your average human, partly because the instumentation of the Elite cockpits isn't up for this kind of maneuvering. You get only positions, not vectors on your scanner. And I daresay, if you would get vectors, it would completely overwhelm 99% of players.

Now, you can consider yourself one of the 1%, and good for you. The issue, however, is that we need the 99% to enjoy the game as well, because they are the ones paying for the continued development of this game we love.

If it were up to me you would be able to increase your speed indefinitely until you hit supercruise speed.

Also known as the Newtonian flight model, which featured prominently in the successors of Elite:1984, which also featured declining sales, most likely because of... see above.

Sorry for being so blunt, but I'm happy that this part of design is not up to you. ;-)

If anything add a gadget that allows you to track targets in supercruise and even subspace or whatever it's called in ED. I think the viewpoint that you should be able to catch your prey is completely ridiculous.

I get the impression that you are somewhat disconnected from what is coming next in the release cycle... which would be frameshift tracking, and the "fixing" of the FAOff Boost mechanics.

 

[Clifford]

@ dobbo, Clifford:

You are looking at escape only. But it's much more than that -- it's complete control over the engagement. You strike when you want, you get away when you want.

That's exactly what an interceptor is supposed to do: control the engagement. And the Viper fills that role the best (with the ships we have now in Beta 1.03).

You want all ships to be nerfed to where they are all the same?
Some ship is always going to be "the fastest". Another ship will always be "the best armored". some other ship carries the most cargo.
For any decent fighter-pilot, if they knew they had the faster ship than the opponent, they'd be a fool not to use its speed as a tactic in fighting and controlling the engagement.



------

This whole conversation started as a discussion about Vipers but now has become the same debate about FA-off boost speed that we had numerous other threads on.
Basically the reality is this: There is no compelling way to force ships to stay and fight. If they want to get away, the FA-off boost gives them an effective method of running away (even for the slower ships). To take away FA-off Boost speed; or otherwise nerf speeds, would lead us more to a "roped-in arena" style of fighting where you cannot leave the area and everybody stays until they die.

Right now the game mechanics are setup to where there's never any good reason to stay and fight to the death. We don't have missions requiring us to stay and defend any position. On random encounters, People will always fight until their hull is low then they run away. You want to change that? tie a rope around their ship so they can't get away from your guns?

 

[gravedodger]

I don't think it should change, if a ship is faster and can run away then great, that's a strength of that particular ship and will be the choice of certain players.

If this is supposed to be a big open galaxy with variety and complexity then it's right that this type of game mechanic exists. Why is it considered 'wrong' that a particular ship has the ability to run away? Could the same argument not be made for a ship that is better armed or have more cargo space or more manoeuvrable?

Sometimes I stay and fight to the death, sometime I can't be bothered so I run away ... I imagine that's the same for a lot of players. There's no universal law or decree that says you 'must be able to catch every ship', no, and if you're a pirate and your 'intended victim' has the ability to run away quickly and evade your attempt to steal / destroy then suck it up and find another potential victim somewhere else, it's a big galaxy with lots of players, I'm sure you'll find someone who'll give you a duel if you want.

If Frontier start down the road of balancing 'everything' too much then where does it stop? The galaxy would be become a bland place where everything has the same or very similar abilities ... How boring!

The Elite universe as I understand it is a place for Explorers, Traders and Pirates, there will be ships best suited to each type of play that give an edge for the player, what's wrong with that?

I want to say more but got to go to work ....

 

[Vander Mey jr.]

That's exactly what an interceptor is supposed to do: control the engagement. And the Viper fills that role the best (with the ships we have now in Beta 1.03).

You want all ships to be nerfed to where they are all the same?

Clifford, gravedodger, please. That is completely not what I said.

Let's say two Cobras engage each other...

This is absolutely not about type X versus type Y. It's about type X with FAOff versus type X with FAOn. Please read what I wrote, and think beyond your ship and playing style of choice.

You also completely failed to address any of the balancing or flight style issues I brought up. This is unfortunately common when people speak up to defend FAOff-Boost not bleeding off, which is part of the reason why those discussions degrade the way they do. One side says, "it affects the game in this way and that, and it doesn't result in the intended gameplay, and we could compromise in this way or that", and the other goes "I like it, let's keep it, I don't care how it affects the game" (including creative misunderstanding of what's being said by the first party), or "Newton! Newton!".

Besides, it's a dead discussion anyway, since...

It's going to change though.

So let's bury this until we can test the next iteration of the Beta.

As for the OP, you can't really "catch" a ship of the same type, no matter the mechanics. Can we agree on that? Fine.