Guardian SLF - magic ships?

...The new SLFs are just gratuitous space magic. I'm not saying that they don't look cool, actually I dig their aesthetic, but their design doesn't seem to have any other purpose than "trident ships rock".

Are they ? The guardians were much more advanced than us in many respect, so is it really incongruous that their devices and constructs feature things that look un-natural, impossible and beyond our tech level ?

Not really IMO.

As a side note : we pink apes have tech that create an invisible barrier around our ships and can stop a high velocity metal slug. Does binding two metal slugs together with similar tech seem that far fetched now ?
 
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Just don't accelerate anything to much :D
There is a difference between suspending something in a magnetic field and using a magnetic field as a substitute for a physical connection that is used to transfer forces (acceleration).

Not really. A force is a force is a force - there's nothing magically differentiating between levitating something in Earth's gravity field and accelerating something.

I used to work with machines that used (electro-)magnetic force to accelerate small thingies ("particles", if you want the technical term) to 99.xx% light speed (we used different scales, but that's what it would translate to). And if you don't think magnetic forces can accelerate something, then you also have to throw out your rail guns and plasma accelerators.

A propos rail gun: this is not so much SF as some might think:

[video=youtube_share;G1gi7XQtez4]https://youtu.be/G1gi7XQtez4[/video]
 
The stations already have "floating" small structures held by magnetism in the "signposts" seen around at both stations and outposts. Also consider the shields deflect metallic structures to the point of no physical collision. ED has no artificial gravity, because the force field tech available only seems to affect metallic elements so far. Same with the guardian sentinels.
I can almost get on board with that, except for the "only metallic" clause. The big forcefields in the space stations already do a good job of deflecting air.

To be fair, people with a better grasp of physics thoerycrafting than mine have already suggested ways that forcefield technology could be used to simulate some of the effects of gravity. The threads will be in the archive somewhere. ISTR the counter was the size and cost of the technology; practical enough as an alternative to a giant airlock in space stations, but not cost effective or scalable enough to supplant simple rotation as a means to artificial gravity. (Which itself is muddied by the alignment of the stations, which rotate on an axis at 45º to their orbital plane and would require constant adjustments to maintain orientation. But we rarely talk of such things ;)).

The point is that Elite's universe has always been rooted in those design, political and cultural tropes from classic SF of the 70s and early 80s. Big, rotating space stations because artificial gravity isn't a thing. Starship owner-operators somehow able to compete in trade alongside huge megacorporations. Two (later three) philosophically opposed superpowers. Aggression, greed and capitalism driving a lot of human motivation.

ED managed to retain a lot of that, which has been a problem for some players and a touchstone for others. It's always been one of those franchises where players have to mentally cherry-pick the things they unambiguously accept and back-burner those that are more problematic. ED is more complex, and so these problems are amplified. Every individual player has their own threshold beyond which it's no longer trivial to dismiss the things they find personally needling. The new Guardian hybrids, by offering action-at-a-distance technology that's small enough to fit into a fighter, pushes some players closer to that threshold. I can understand that. They're not quite over the line for me just yet, but the line is a lot more visible than it was.

That's all this boils down to. Everyone has their own interpretation. For some it's nothing while for others it's close to the final straw. Most are somewhere in the middle. It's been true of almost every new "thing" that's been added to the Elite lore. Guardian field technology is merely the latest addition, albeit quite a potentially significant one.

It's a classic sci-fi mistake. Humans have thousands of styles. Aliens only ever have one. (Oh and that's before we get to: the Insects fly insect ships. The reptiles fly reptile ships. The plants fly plant ships... just like humans fly large naked action men... oh wait).
It does grate a bit, but I'd argue it's less of a mistake and more of a visual shorthand for the purpose of storytelling. I see it all the time in SF movies and especially TV, but most written SF is more nuanced when it comes to describing alien architecture. As a predominantly visual medium, games tend towards the simplistic approach too.

You know what come next don't you! Floating spoilers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :O
Ha!
 
One point Braben made extensively during the game's early years, was that Elite was as scientifically accurate as possible, and that as little technobabble as possible was being inserted into the game, only where absolutely necessary, to account for game mechanics (FTL travel for instance) without which the entire premise of the game (an entire galaxy) would have been impossible. IIRC he featured in at least one article, specifically on this topic.

The new SLFs are just gratuitous space magic. I'm not saying that they don't look cool, actually I dig their aesthetic, but their design doesn't seem to have any other purpose than "trident ships rock".

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I think on some level, this is just the new normal for ED. That "no space magic" stance is long gone, it's just less obvious in other places. If logic and some grounding in reality were the basis of these design decisions, the whole tech broker unlock wouldn't exist, especially not for the guardian stuff. I mean, humankind is probably at risk of being wiped out by the Thargoids sooner or later, and we probably need this Guardian tech to even stand a chance at survival (let alone victory). And yet everyone who volunteers to help defend humanity not only has to put their private assets at risk, has to deliver some MacGuffins in order to be allowed to actually buy the gear needed. That's 3 levels of illogical nonsense in this story already...
 
It simplifies a whole civilisation down to a few design styles.
Not entirely true, it defines certain root patterns perhaps but that should not be unexpected given we are talking about a machine race here effectively - the Guardian AI and a few ruins are all that remain of the guardian civilisation as far as we know.

The currently available data we and lore on the Guardians see to indicate they were technologically advanced but that does not necessarily mean they were diverse in their approaches to designs.

It's a classic sci-fi mistake. Humans have thousands of styles. Aliens only ever have one.
Aesthetics is a poor justification for design variation if that is the ONLY reason. In the human case, we have a number of diverse cultures that evolved independently on the most part with different approaches to art, religion, philosophy, and language. At a basic level, there is very little variation in human designs and the aesthetic aspects are normally a characteristic of who is involved in designing/building it and what the core motivations are behind the activity.

Where insect hive (Thargoids) and machine hive (Guardian AI) races are concerned there is going to be a natural consensus and commonality in overall approaches due to the fundamental nature of the entities under consideration. Where other alien cultures are concerned their cultures may not have evolved in as diverse a fashion.

In Sci-Fi, generally speaking (there are some exceptions) any given alien race is often considered to have a single culture - sometimes with different factions but generally speaking if there is a major schism/difference between the races at a philosophical, religious, or linguistic level then they are considered a separate race even if their general root origins are identical. A prime example of this are the Vulcans and Romulans in Star Trek - the Romulans and Vulcans are essentially the same race but they diverged on philosophical/ideological grounds and then evolved differently from each other in different parts of the universe.

The primary justification for humans having more diverse designs is that we have a broad and diverse set of cultures that has evolved on a single planet and mingled over the years. In common sci-fi, humans rarely truly unify into a single culture and in the cases that do go down that route they are normally portrayed as being doomed to not persist as a unified culture.

Human technology is normally positioned as being (at least initially) weaker than alien technology in one area or another but often humans adapt alien tech to work with nominal human tech and in doing so can result in even more diversity (in an overall sense) than we already have but generally speaking how that alien tech is integrated tends to follow a particular pattern. The same rules of thumb apply to any new wholly human tech too, in some cases there is diversity from the start because of different human factions attempting the same work independently of each other.

In ED specifically, we have different manufacturers taking different approaches to ship designs and each of those manufacturers tends to be generally consistent in their approaches across a given range of tech that is designed for a specific purpose. In the case of the human-guardian hybrid tech, there appears to be a single unified group incorporating the alien tech with ours thus (at least for now) the designs resulting from that work are naturally going to be consistent in at least general approach - the focus is on integrating the tech rather than trying to introduce variety for the sake of it.

In short - lack of diversity in aesthetics in a given culture is expected, humans are often considered to be a mess of intermingled cultures (hence diversity in aesthetics) while individual alien factions are generally considered a single culture and different alien cultures are typically considered different aliens even if there is a common genetic baseline.
 
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One point Braben made extensively during the game's early years, was that Elite was as scientifically accurate as possible, and that as little technobabble as possible was being inserted into the game, only where absolutely necessary, to account for game mechanics (FTL travel for instance) without which the entire premise of the game (an entire galaxy) would have been impossible. IIRC he featured in at least one article, specifically on this topic.

The new SLFs are just gratuitous space magic. I'm not saying that they don't look cool, actually I dig their aesthetic, but their design doesn't seem to have any other purpose than "trident ships rock".

I think you should write a sternly worded letter to all the physicists working within all manner of particle acceleration and containment experiments that they are absolutely doing everything wrong because they are clearly mystics, shamans and it's all simple tricks and nonsense and "space magic".

The stupid thing is, this isn't even based on fictitious principles. It's the usual thing of people either not comprehending, or assuming it must be bogus, thus is must be wrong and impossible. It happens over and over again.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C Clarke.

This is understanding a thing, versus belief. Clarke wasn't calling advanced technology magic, he was commenting on the human propensity to fall back to magic and superstition when confronted with something they do not understand.
 
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All of these posts talking about magnets seem to be forgetting that in the zero-G vacuum of space, your magnets would repel those fighter's bits into infinity.

Neither Zero-G nor vacuum changes the way magnetic fields work. You just need to shape the field so that it works the way you want. Ziljan has posted a nice video, and you might also Google "Penning Trap" if you want.

Regarding someone else's claim that bits of metal (or carbon fiber) might be "cheaper" or "easier" - that's (partly) cultural bias. The Guardians are aliens and might have a different view.
Plus, most materials start behaving somewhat odd (at least for the uninitiated) once you get up to really strong magnetic fields and start pushing around the binding electrons. MRI is just the start.
 
All of these posts talking about magnets seem to be forgetting that in the zero-G vacuum of space, your magnets would repel those fighter's bits into infinity.

.. that's not how attraction/ repulsion within magnetic fields work; which is a good thing, because our planet has a magnetic field, and it stops you, me, and everyone else being utterly irradiated and destroyed by the very thing that gives us life. Our star.

Without that magnetic field. In space. We would not be here.

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Guys, it's okay if you don't like a thing. Just say you don't like a thing. The end. It's cool. I get a headache every time I read a Stephen Hawking book so I am far from a smart person. But some of these things being said are a bit funny; even if intended well. ;)
 
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It's funny.

Not too long ago, CMDRs were complaining about the steampunk design of some of the ships - the swiveling thrusters of the DBX and Keelback, the greenhouse cupolas of the Lakons with their flat panes and massive struts. All from the aesthetics of 70s/80s SF, which the original Elite was.

Now FD is finally catching up with 21st century technology, and (the same?) people complain again.
 
That is something I hate. It simplifies a whole civilisation down to a few design styles. Granted we don't have any real aliens to compare ourselves to, but how many different styles to humans have (given everything 'alien', you have ever seen in any game, film, TV program, comic or read in a book is in fact, a human creation)? Whilst some things are designed in a certain way, it is usually because the design makes sense. Thus, most cars are boxes with wheels at the bottom corners. But think about how many thousands of architectural styles we have made over the centuries, how many musical genres, how many art movements, how many companies with there own brand styles, colours, logos, how any languages? Humans are awash with design.

But aliens are always simple to the point that they must not have an equivalent of a right side of the brain. Everything Guardian glows blue and is triangular. There planets must have been so dull. Even if you argued those are just the bits of tech that survived, I would expect to see some design variation.

It's a classic sci-fi mistake. Humans have thousands of styles. Aliens only ever have one. (Oh and that's before we get to: the Insects fly insect ships. The reptiles fly reptile ships. The plants fly plant ships... just like humans fly large naked action men... oh wait).

If humans were a sci-fi race, the description would be "their entire civilization is based on squares"
 
The stations already have "floating" small structures held by magnetism in the "signposts" seen around at both stations and outposts.…

Those signposts are in microgravity and the force required to move them with the rotation of the station is minimal. There is no force field required to get them to do what they do. (A magnetic field could be used to move the signposts in a circle with the station, but it's not required and would probably result in just to much complications and would be to complex that simply using micro-thrusters would be a much better method.)
The weapon platforms at orbital outposts (only small and medium landing pad stations) are just satellites close to the outpost, again nothing extraordinary.

Indeed we are, but not necessary much beyond, except in terms of raw electromagnet field power. Honestly, I'm glad to see Frontier walking back their previous stance on tractor "beam" technology.…

That video is a nice example of why a magnetic connection between parts of a spaceship is problematic - the moment to much acceleration is applied (an additional force to the status quo) things get messy.
(cool video btw, looks like someone had a lot of fun)

Have you ever seen a maglev train. Do you know what a magnet is. Or do you scream immersion at your fridge, in the mornings. Asking for a friend?

Yes I know what a maglev train is, I know how it works (in theory). I know how a magnet is. That's actually the reason why I consider those floating wings "magic".

Not really. A force is a force is a force - there's nothing magically differentiating between levitating something in Earth's gravity field and accelerating something.

The amount of force required to levitate a small magnet (or super conductor) in a small magnetic field and reliably attach an object with a few tons of mass and then accelerate that system by a few gs in random directions is different.

Sure force is force. In case of those Guardian SLFs we are looking at a system where forces are constantly changing requiring the system that holds the parts together to be dynamically adjusting the force to hold the parts together to counter the added forces.

And for no apparent reason other than "it looks cool".
 
The new SLFs are just gratuitous space magic.
I disagree, it is just alien technology and it is deliberately styled to look alien.

Arthur C. Clark once said "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Given the context of the statement I believe their point was that magic in the truest sense of the term does not actually exist and anything that people witness that appears to be magic actually has some underlying scientific principles governing it.

The core principles behind the Guardian technology are believed to be largely based around high energy physics and some form of nano-technology (the nano-tech being the cause of the green glow apparently), and while the "apparently" floating wings may appear to be "just for effect" we do not know enough about the details of the guardians and their technology to assess it properly BUT calling it "gratuitous space magic" is on par with the anecdotal reaction to guns by those that have never even heard of gun powder.
 
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Now FD is finally catching up with 21st century technology, and (the same?) people complain again.

If anything I have learned from 4 years, then it is that....people complain. The end.

When people are happy they don't bother to post large walls of text. They just enjoy thing they are happy with.
 

Someone once said any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I believe their point was that magic in the truest sense of the term does not actually exist and anything that people witness that appears to be magic actually has some underlying scientific principles governing it.

I believe that that "advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" is just an excuse to apply magic in a science fiction setting.
There is some truth to it, without enough knowledge about a technology things might look like magic, but the reverse is not true. There are things that are physically impossible and using such things is magic and can't be explained as "advanced tech". Creating energy out of nothing would be magic for example and no amount of "advanced technology" can change that.
 
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