Where's the fun in that? [hehe]
The Star Citizen Thread v9
- Thread starter Yaffle
- Start date
Where's the fun in that? [hehe]
Since you are new, what would you like to know about Star Citizen?
Add me in game, same name as the forums: "sovapid"
To be fair, I'm not CDF and have no idea what CDF is.
Call out CDF all you want.
Call me out on fabricating videos, while completely in the wrong, well, that is prolly fine here too, TBH....
Citizen Defence Force is another throwaway label like "Hater" or "ED Fanboy"... A bit daft if you ask me.
Asp isn't normally so combative (orly?), so maybe see what he has to say later when he comes back online. I think he is somewhere deep in 'Murca-land?
Asp isn't normally so combative (orly?), so maybe see what he has to say later when he comes back online. I think he is somewhere deep in 'Murca-land?
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
The whole thread? Hmm. Maybe not a bad idea...
Internet was a mistake.
According to Twerk17 CiGs current focus shifts to Arena Commander and Star Marine? (~25 mins in). Do the rest of you think these 2 stand-alone modules need more work over the PU and SQ42? Without much more info this strikes me as yet another "OH SHINEY, LETS DO THIS TODAY UNTIL WE SPOT ANOTHER SHINEY SOMEWHERE ELSE" move. SM and AC look better and run smoother/more reliable then the PU and as far as SQ42 goes.....well 
I mean CiG needs to be pretty far ahead of their own dev schedule and have manpower to spare to go with that focus at this point in time?
edit: a few minutes further in (~0:31:00) Lando comments that they have resources to spare because they got to the PU much faster then anticipated making it sound like the PU is done and ready for release? Obviously Twerk disagrees but I find it interesting that CiG doesnt acknowledges all the work that still needs to be done with the PU despite the generally known issues in the community and simply moves on as if its a "done deal". This seems to be the biggest danger coming from all the "yes-men" defending the potential of a game despite obvious shortcomings. Companies absolutely need to be forced to recognize and acknowledge problems. With the very loud SCDF CiG simply picks whatever they want to hear disregarding all the legit complaints.
I mean CiG needs to be pretty far ahead of their own dev schedule and have manpower to spare to go with that focus at this point in time?edit: a few minutes further in (~0:31:00) Lando comments that they have resources to spare because they got to the PU much faster then anticipated making it sound like the PU is done and ready for release? Obviously Twerk disagrees but I find it interesting that CiG doesnt acknowledges all the work that still needs to be done with the PU despite the generally known issues in the community and simply moves on as if its a "done deal". This seems to be the biggest danger coming from all the "yes-men" defending the potential of a game despite obvious shortcomings. Companies absolutely need to be forced to recognize and acknowledge problems. With the very loud SCDF CiG simply picks whatever they want to hear disregarding all the legit complaints.
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According to Twerk17 CiGs current focus shifts to Arena Commander and Star Marine? (~25 mins in). Do the rest of you think these 2 stand-alone modules need more work over the PU and SQ42? Without much more info this strikes me as yet another "OH SHINEY, LETS DO THIS TODAY UNTIL WE SPOT ANOTHER SHINEY SOMEWHERE ELSE" move. SM and AC look better and run smoother/more reliable then the PU and as far as SQ42 goes.....well
The shock horror maybe a release of 1.0 SQ42 rushed out the door for Citizencon this year. Quicky before they get an injunction...
dayrth
Volunteer Moderator
The three possibilities that spring to my mind are:According to Twerk17 CiGs current focus shifts to Arena Commander and Star Marine? (~25 mins in). Do the rest of you think these 2 stand-alone modules need more work over the PU and SQ42? Without much more info this strikes me as yet another "OH SHINEY, LETS DO THIS TODAY UNTIL WE SPOT ANOTHER SHINEY SOMEWHERE ELSE" move. SM and AC look better and run smoother/more reliable then the PU and as far as SQ42 goes.....well
1. OMG we're nearly out of money and the ship sales aren't going so well. What can we get out of the door fastest to generate a bit of income.
2. We're a bit bogged down here, lets try doing something else for a while and see if we can make some progress that way.
and the ultra cynical one
3. Let's switch to something else so when people say 'there is not enough progress in the PU' we can say that's because we are doing other stuff, and when they say 'but there's no progress in that either' we can say it's because we just started it.
Umm, didn't they state in the last year that AC and SM were purely there to testbed for the PU and as such active development of either of them as standalone entities was canned?
We have always been at war with EastSmartia!
We have always been at war with EastSmartia!
I've found for most games that the SSD only helped with initial loading, and even then not always particularly noticable. The only game where i noticed the SSD really helping in game was with GTA as before i got a SSD i would sometimes suffer texture drop out as it couldn't load fast enough when driving around the city.
I'll take being cynical for 500 Bob!
Twerk is much more critical then I m used from him, he seems to have changed his view on the whole project a lot since I last watched him. Well its much more refreshing to see people call out bullcrap when they see it regardless if they generally support Star Citizen or not. There certainly is more then enough reason for call-outs.
He mentions that he thinks that the open-development model probably was the worst thing CiG could go with in regards to development progress. Because due to all the various "cons" over the years and reveals in between too much hours and money was spent on polishing and all that which all helped to massively delay actual progress. In this I disagree strongly mainly because the first 2 years of development didnt really follow the open development model at all. The community got tidbits of info but nothing to use. The hangar came out pretty late and AC was coming even later. Essentially, CiG had next to nothing to show after 2 years of running the show however they pleased. After they realized that they ll run out time on their own timeline they came up with the famous "community poll" to add that much more available time and secure funding. Only this came with additional duties on their part mainly the community demanded more rigid insight for all the moolah they were handing over.
And truth be told CiGs development speed pretty much reflects the first 2 years throughout the whole time. Maybe it even got slower but it certainly showed that a lot of industry standards were neither implemented nor considered and evaluating the PU in hindsight it appears to ve been a rush job back then. That would explain all the problems and issues it has. It doesnt scream "well designed" for sure. And because CiG never acknowledged this and went with the "everything is fine, we are almost there" chant instead they now have to work with a crappy foundation.
I dont know if the current PU condition is simply a transition (many would say CiG is starting to finally make progress) and marking a change in course (much needed to be sure) but what if the current PU represents the PINNACLE of CiGs capabilities and basically is SC 1.0 release?
When I think of the last 7 years I d say for myself that CiG never was ahead of the development curve. The potential demonstrated by a third-party effort screamed levels OVER 9000 but ever since that Crytek trailer actual work coming out of CiG never surpassed it. The original PU didnt change much. It has a few more ships and a couple missions to do....for a game in alpha that is a ridiculous amount of progress....as if PU version 1 all those years back already was the final version and all the touches and make-overs since then were on par with actually released games which adds content via patches.
And if this all is true and not just gloom and doom then that means that Star Citizen never actually had the potential to become what CRoberts announced in 2012 and he probably knew that too, best case scenario he was "thinking" he could do it but didnt know for sure.
Even with the extraordinary Kickstarter success and the following income through their own homepage the first 65 million dollars pretty much were accounted for. They didnt have any "surplus" to waste because all those extra millions were tied into the stretch goals but thats not how CiG behaved. instead they went off and aquired some of the most expensive real estate for their companies headquarter, set up multiple additional companies and rent mocap-time at the most expensive location on earth. Stories like the 20K coffee machine and space doors are just the tip of the iceberg back then. their burn-rate must ve been incredible and they maintained this by selling yet more promises (aka technical debt). Well, it looks like reality finally have caught up with them and the eternal backpedaling begins with promises pushed back to later patches or going into after-release alltogether while even with 200 millions on their tracker they are unable to fulfill the 65 million stretch goals.
Yeah, development is expensive and requires time. If you dont have a good design paper or any design at all you just multiply the cost. All the other factors (nepotism, clueless CEO, constant switching in development focus, constantly adding new things etc) only add more cost to the whole thing.
Maybe Star Citizen in its original version might ve been possible with 65 millions (tho I gonna say that most stretch goals back then didnt really reflect the additional development cost and rather striked me as "heres a cool idea, just add another million duh") and maybe even the original scope might ve eventually cost 200 million. Fact is that after 3-4 MORE years past that point and triple the available money expecting more then what SC currently is or maybe even a release (OMG HERESY ALPHAAAA) isnt really an unrealistic opinion nor entitlement IMO.
I just gonna repeat that according to my own experiences the most rapid progress in terms of pure bulk, content, game-loops and whatnot happens in Alpha. The devs basically throw everything they have together then try to make it work. Once they have a (kind of) stable version they and everything is accounted for they move over to Beta which is mainly fine-tuning and last-minute changes and most games today probably add a "polishing" phase after that to get the product ready for release. Keep that in mind when evaluating CiGs progress rate and tell me again how they made "great progress"....not compared to other game companies they didnt. Instead CiG constantly paints the image that they dont know themselves what else is needed to get Alpha done. Their design changes, new things are added while old issues are either ignored or silently covered. Tho they claim they know exactly whats needed information on that part is mostly unavailable or demands in that regard instantly smashed down by the fanatics accusing people of distracting and wasting dev attention. Also has there been a published design paper outlining all the milestones? The schedule reports are at best snippets in the whole thing and regarding how much these change from month to month I doubt very much there is a "mother document" spawning them at all.
He mentions that he thinks that the open-development model probably was the worst thing CiG could go with in regards to development progress. Because due to all the various "cons" over the years and reveals in between too much hours and money was spent on polishing and all that which all helped to massively delay actual progress. In this I disagree strongly mainly because the first 2 years of development didnt really follow the open development model at all. The community got tidbits of info but nothing to use. The hangar came out pretty late and AC was coming even later. Essentially, CiG had next to nothing to show after 2 years of running the show however they pleased. After they realized that they ll run out time on their own timeline they came up with the famous "community poll" to add that much more available time and secure funding. Only this came with additional duties on their part mainly the community demanded more rigid insight for all the moolah they were handing over.
And truth be told CiGs development speed pretty much reflects the first 2 years throughout the whole time. Maybe it even got slower but it certainly showed that a lot of industry standards were neither implemented nor considered and evaluating the PU in hindsight it appears to ve been a rush job back then. That would explain all the problems and issues it has. It doesnt scream "well designed" for sure. And because CiG never acknowledged this and went with the "everything is fine, we are almost there" chant instead they now have to work with a crappy foundation.
I dont know if the current PU condition is simply a transition (many would say CiG is starting to finally make progress) and marking a change in course (much needed to be sure) but what if the current PU represents the PINNACLE of CiGs capabilities and basically is SC 1.0 release?
When I think of the last 7 years I d say for myself that CiG never was ahead of the development curve. The potential demonstrated by a third-party effort screamed levels OVER 9000 but ever since that Crytek trailer actual work coming out of CiG never surpassed it. The original PU didnt change much. It has a few more ships and a couple missions to do....for a game in alpha that is a ridiculous amount of progress....as if PU version 1 all those years back already was the final version and all the touches and make-overs since then were on par with actually released games which adds content via patches.
And if this all is true and not just gloom and doom then that means that Star Citizen never actually had the potential to become what CRoberts announced in 2012 and he probably knew that too, best case scenario he was "thinking" he could do it but didnt know for sure.
Even with the extraordinary Kickstarter success and the following income through their own homepage the first 65 million dollars pretty much were accounted for. They didnt have any "surplus" to waste because all those extra millions were tied into the stretch goals but thats not how CiG behaved. instead they went off and aquired some of the most expensive real estate for their companies headquarter, set up multiple additional companies and rent mocap-time at the most expensive location on earth. Stories like the 20K coffee machine and space doors are just the tip of the iceberg back then. their burn-rate must ve been incredible and they maintained this by selling yet more promises (aka technical debt). Well, it looks like reality finally have caught up with them and the eternal backpedaling begins with promises pushed back to later patches or going into after-release alltogether while even with 200 millions on their tracker they are unable to fulfill the 65 million stretch goals.
Yeah, development is expensive and requires time. If you dont have a good design paper or any design at all you just multiply the cost. All the other factors (nepotism, clueless CEO, constant switching in development focus, constantly adding new things etc) only add more cost to the whole thing.
Maybe Star Citizen in its original version might ve been possible with 65 millions (tho I gonna say that most stretch goals back then didnt really reflect the additional development cost and rather striked me as "heres a cool idea, just add another million duh") and maybe even the original scope might ve eventually cost 200 million. Fact is that after 3-4 MORE years past that point and triple the available money expecting more then what SC currently is or maybe even a release (OMG HERESY ALPHAAAA) isnt really an unrealistic opinion nor entitlement IMO.
I just gonna repeat that according to my own experiences the most rapid progress in terms of pure bulk, content, game-loops and whatnot happens in Alpha. The devs basically throw everything they have together then try to make it work. Once they have a (kind of) stable version they and everything is accounted for they move over to Beta which is mainly fine-tuning and last-minute changes and most games today probably add a "polishing" phase after that to get the product ready for release. Keep that in mind when evaluating CiGs progress rate and tell me again how they made "great progress"....not compared to other game companies they didnt. Instead CiG constantly paints the image that they dont know themselves what else is needed to get Alpha done. Their design changes, new things are added while old issues are either ignored or silently covered. Tho they claim they know exactly whats needed information on that part is mostly unavailable or demands in that regard instantly smashed down by the fanatics accusing people of distracting and wasting dev attention. Also has there been a published design paper outlining all the milestones? The schedule reports are at best snippets in the whole thing and regarding how much these change from month to month I doubt very much there is a "mother document" spawning them at all.
dayrth
Volunteer Moderator
Got to rep anyone who does proper money
Jacques d'Orleans
Banned
I'm asking myself what could that "exciting" CitizenCon announcement be? New ship sale? Hey, by sheer coincidence we have a few more tickets? Sandi will present her new Gucci handbag?
Questions, questions!
https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/1035194613848371200
Questions, questions!
https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/1035194613848371200
Games are made for loading from slow 2.5in 5400 rpm console hard drives and not long ago were made for loading from 4x Bluray disc drives. If you see a big difference for some title, someone messed up.
Maybe the exciting citcon announcement will be like the infamous treasury letter when Labour left power "There is no money left..."
Not what I had in mind. For that I would have to go with the 'nuke it from space to be sure' option.