Not IF but WHY discussion around modes in the BGS

[MottiKhan]

Not adding to the lockdown, I mean when the state is not lock down, and some people want to create one.
And delivering bounties, is WAY harder to get than simply killing self repelenishing system security vessels.

The guides and stuff I read always speak about those actions reducing the lockdown, once in effect and not preventing it form happening. Thats a difference.

I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the premise.

I can take a cheap meta ship like an FDL and get 3 kills before you could intervene with your meta ship. I'd high wake, repair and come back. Make 3 more kills and repeat. If you got lucky and killed me, you'd be facing a significant repair bill and would have to cash in enough bounties to counter my kills.

I'd have at least a 3 to 1 advantage and that's if you were perfect in finding and engaging. The ATR can't do a thing to stop me. You can't either. It's easy to escape as long as I keep situational awareness.

 

[WhoCares]

I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the premise.

I can take a cheap meta ship like an FDL and get 3 kills before you could intervene with your meta ship. I'd high wake, repair and come back. Make 3 more kills and repeat. If you got lucky and killed me, you'd be facing a significant repair bill and would have to cash in enough bounties to counter my kills.

I'd have at least a 3 to 1 advantage and that's if you were perfect in finding and engaging. The ATR can't do a thing to stop me. You can't either. It's easy to escape as long as I keep situational awareness.

Tell me if I am wrong, but in most states that are not lockdown, players can just as well do trade transactions or deliver exploration data to counter your kills.
By the BGS tick all actions will get thrown into one big sum of possitive and negative actions for the respective factions.
Correcting myself, I had the influence in mind - forcing certain state transitions and actions to support/fight such transitions seem not so well documented, though for lockdown is murder/fines vs. bounties, correct?

 

[MottiKhan]

Tell me if I am wrong, but in most states that are not lockdown, players can just as well do trade transactions or deliver exploration data to counter your kills.
By the BGS tick all actions will get thrown into one big sum of possitive and negative actions for the respective factions.

No. Only bounty hunting will lower the bucket for lockdown. You can go into a higher priority state to cancel the lockdown, but only after it goes active. otherwise, you'll only delay it.

A higher priority state would be expansion/retreat or conflict.

 

[WhoCares]

No. Only bounty hunting will lower the bucket for lockdown. You can go into a higher priority state to cancel the lockdown, but only after it goes active. otherwise, you'll only delay it.

A higher priority state would be expansion/retreat or conflict.

Yeah, I realised and corrected my mistake already
Request to Jane: BGS article about state transitions and which actions support/counter such transitions
Some are clear, like (civil) war and election (reaching equal influence), lockdown (murder/fines or special case UA bombing), others less so (outbreak, famine, bust, boom, ...)

 

[Marra Morgan]

Yeah, I realised and corrected my mistake already
Request to Jane: BGS article about state transitions and which actions support/counter such transitions
Some are clear, like (civil) war and election (reaching equal influence), lockdown (murder/fines or special case UA bombing), others less so (outbreak, famine, bust, boom, ...)

She already has

 

[Jane Turner]

Yeah, I realised and corrected my mistake already
Request to Jane: BGS article about state transitions and which actions support/counter such transitions
Some are clear, like (civil) war and election (reaching equal influence), lockdown (murder/fines or special case UA bombing), others less so (outbreak, famine, bust, boom, ...)

Its there already - look in the stickies in the BGS forum)

 

[WhoCares]

Its there already - look in the stickies in the BGS forum)

We degress, but that article is very valuable describing what actions are effective in certain states, but at least to me it is not clear from it how to force certain transitions, especially to Outbreak, Famine, Bust, Unrest,...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Is that so? Then tell me when a group of 10 people wants to put a system into lockdown, how does the other player prevent this? can he do anything to counter that? AFAIk, only trying to prevent those players form shooting down these factions vessels (and maybe eventually driving those players away) would prevent or delay the lockdown.

The easiest way to prevent or delay the lockdown would be to line up a bunch of higher priority states (Expansion, Retreat, Election, War, Civil War) for the relevant faction. With the right combination and active management a lockdown can be delayed for weeks and kept to at most a single-day duration when it does arrive ... regardless of the size of the opposing group if they're solely trying to cause a lockdown in a single system rather than fighting you across the board.

Countering the lockdown by handing in bounties or running missions with a -Lockdown effect is also possible - whether its effective is a numbers game depending on how many there are of you and how many there are of them.

Shooting the people trying to cause the Lockdown is highly ineffective even if they're all "Open-only" players themselves - you'll never kill a PvP-grade ship, if you somehow do it costs "half a trade mission" in rebuy for a medium ship which is basically nothing, and you have to defend as many systems as the faction controls while they can pick whichever one is not defended to attack because it adds to Lockdown wherever the murder takes place.

Let's say you have ten controlled systems - most established BGS-playing groups do. There are ten attackers who are coordinating with each other. How many defenders do you need to cover all ten systems with sufficient force to prevent any attackers slipping away and finding a nice murder-instance you don't know about? Assuming everyone plays in Open on the same platform, does not block, and has perfect instancing, and the attackers are here to cause a lockdown rather than get bogged down in a fight ... my guess would be about 100 at any time, or "larger than any registered INARA wing" if you want to maintain the round-the-clock coverage needed to guarantee lockdown prevention.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't attack someone BGSing against you if you happen to see them - go right ahead! It's the *waiting* for them that is the massively inefficient use of time, but without the waiting you probably never see them to attack.

No. Only bounty hunting will lower the bucket for lockdown.

Or -Lockdown missions such as weapons trading or surface scans

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The easiest way to prevent or delay the lockdown would be to line up a bunch of higher priority states (Expansion, Retreat, Election, War, Civil War) for the relevant faction. With the right combination and active management a lockdown can be delayed for weeks and kept to at most a single-day duration when it does arrive ... regardless of the size of the opposing group if they're solely trying to cause a lockdown in a single system rather than fighting you across the board.

Countering the lockdown by handing in bounties or running missions with a -Lockdown effect is also possible - whether its effective is a numbers game depending on how many there are of you and how many there are of them.

Shooting the people trying to cause the Lockdown is highly ineffective even if they're all "Open-only" players themselves - you'll never kill a PvP-grade ship, if you somehow do it costs "half a trade mission" in rebuy for a medium ship which is basically nothing, and you have to defend as many systems as the faction controls while they can pick whichever one is not defended to attack because it adds to Lockdown wherever the murder takes place.

Let's say you have ten controlled systems - most established BGS-playing groups do. There are ten attackers who are coordinating with each other. How many defenders do you need to cover all ten systems with sufficient force to prevent any attackers slipping away and finding a nice murder-instance you don't know about? Assuming everyone plays in Open on the same platform, does not block, and has perfect instancing, and the attackers are here to cause a lockdown rather than get bogged down in a fight ... my guess would be about 100 at any time, or "larger than any registered INARA wing" if you want to maintain the round-the-clock coverage needed to guarantee lockdown prevention.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't attack someone BGSing against you if you happen to see them - go right ahead! It's the *waiting* for them that is the massively inefficient use of time, but without the waiting you probably never see them to attack.


Or -Lockdown missions such as weapons trading or surface scans

And while you're waiting on station for a target you could already be doing something else that helps your faction.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

And while you're waiting on station for a target you could already be doing something else that helps your faction.

We've been through all this many, many times before.
People who like PvP want to use PvP to resolve all their problems, despite it being massively inefficient.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

Not adding to the lockdown, I mean when the state is not lock down, and some people want to create one.
And delivering bounties, is WAY harder to get than simply killing self repelenishing system security vessels.
...

The problem, there, is that murder is OP. Many in the BGS community have said this for years. The solution, then, is to balance murder, not to make the BGS Open Only in the hope you can stop the murderers. (which, by the way, you won't)

 

[MottiKhan]

The problem, there, is that murder is OP. Many in the BGS community have said this for years. The solution, then, is to balance murder, not to make the BGS Open Only in the hope you can stop the murderers. (which, by the way, you won't)

+1 rep. Yes, murder needs to be balanced. I'm not sure how to do that. Maybe turn in "murder tags" at a neutral station and have them count as one transaction per turn in? That would roughly equal BHing.

 

[smiths121]

In the last week or so, FDev dropped a PMF in the home system of my adopted faction (present in 17 systems, controlling 6). According to their Inara profile they play in a private group in a timezone 6 hours ahead of mine. I play alone, but in Open.

Who's the bad guy in this scenario?

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'FDev'

Happened to us, and by us I mean less than a hand's worth of fingers (we're in 22 control 10 for what it is worth). To be fair not our home system, that sucks! Alas I cannot even get up early to meet the new player group. They are Xbox, we are PC. So came to deal with each other to avoid each other. Seemed the most sensible.

Simon

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Happened to us, and by us I mean less than a hand's worth of fingers (we're in 22 control 10 for what it is worth). To be fair not our home system, that sucks! Alas I cannot even get up early to meet the new player group. They are Xbox, we are PC. So came to deal with each other to avoid each other. Seemed the most sensible.

Simon

My commiserations

It's often forgotten in discussions of the BGS that it isn't the sole preserve of PMFs. There are many solo players and small groups (below the threshold for PMF creation) that play the BGS too - and their needs are just as valid and important as those of groups with 1,000s of members. As you've seen, we are essentially invisible to FDev and since it appears that any new group-play functionality will be unavailable to us - I'm looking at you, Squadron Carriers - it's likely that we'll become progressively more marginalized, given that FDev listen to the loudest voices.

Not that I'm blaming FDev too much - I understand why they want to have limits on PMFs and Squadron Carriers, rather than let every Cmdr have them. It's just a shame that smaller groups and lone wolves are going to find themselves squeezed out of activities by larger groups.

I still think PMFs were a mistake though.

 

[DNA-Decay]

I think PMFs have brought a lot of people deeper into the game, and so on the whole “a good thing”.

But what I wanted to touch on was ATR.
ATR are an attempt to create NPCs that are as tough and tougher than CMDRs.
ATR are meant to simulate the effect of a blockade by CMDRs in an “Open Only” environment.

And Yeah - If you’re not prepared, they are frightening.

But if you are doing illegal activities in a system, notoriety and ATR don’t prevent those activities.
They commit you to them.

Here’s what I mean:
If you are basically law abiding, getting notoriety really messes up your game. You have to leave and do something else.
When I picked up some accidental notoriety it took me a week to sort it out. Total debacle.

But now, with my notoriety maxed out, I am committed to being an outlaw.
Now that I know what to expect from ATR, I can still do the bad things, but
I can’t do any “peaceful” activities.
I’m committed.

Usually I’m a suit and tie kinda guy, but I’ve even bought a reaver skin for the ship and flight suit.
Thats actual IRL bucks because under the C&P system I’m committed to this.
I might not be very got at it - but
This is my life now.

Spoiler

Blood for the blood god.
Skulls for the skull throne.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

We've been through all this many, many times before.
People who like PvP want to use PvP to resolve all their problems, despite it being massively inefficient.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Its not massively inefficient if I kill you and you cant turn in your 20 stack +++++ missions only to find out you fail them upon death. Or stop you from Cop Killing. If you cant switch modes to continue doing it because you die over and over again eventually losing a ton of rebuy.

Id be the one being efficient for my player faction.

All this talk here, saying well you cant do this or that throughout this thread is a bunch of nonsense.

Its literally happening in colonia right now. Some player groups engage with each other in open, some dont. But its not like we cant see each other, and its not like we cant stop our progression against one another.

You're already PVPing and the only thing between you and everyone else in solo and private are the NPC's that you are farming and not the player group you are attacking or defending against.

I see good ol Robert Maynard above saying ONCE AGAIN, "Well if people dont like direct pvp as they attack this player faction" THEN DONT GO AFTER OTHER PLAYER FACTION OBJECTIVES. And it wont be an issue.

Players should be able to see and face the players attacking them. They didnt ask for the attack. And they also cant defend against the attack. They only get to fix what they are screwing up behind the scenes, they have no chance to stop them from doing it.

You should never have to farm just because someone else decided to be a pain in your factions butt, with no consequences for the person/group causing trouble.

Again you cant even claim the bounty on the bounty boards. Even though you know they are there. A PVP Mechanic not being used.

Literally half this games mechanics and modules aren't being used because of this issue alone.

You Park 3/4's of all your engineering and go into solo and private in a barebones ship to be more efficient than taking defenses for open play.

I just dont see it continuing to be this way. Its not healthy for game or players once they reach this point of the game.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Its not massively inefficient if I kill you and you cant turn in your 20 stack +++++ missions only to find out you fail them upon death. Or stop you from Cop Killing. If you cant switch modes to continue doing it because you die over and over again eventually losing a ton of rebuy.

Id be the one being efficient for my player faction.

All this talk here, saying well you cant do this or that throughout this thread is a bunch of nonsense.

Its literally happening in colonia right now. Some player groups engage with each other in open, some dont. But its not like we cant see each other, and its not like we cant stop our progression against one another.

You're already PVPing and the only thing between you and everyone else in solo and private are the NPC's that you are farming and not the player group you are attacking or defending against.

I see good ol Robert Maynard above saying ONCE AGAIN, "Well if people dont like direct pvp as they attack this player faction" THEN DONT GO AFTER OTHER PLAYER FACTION OBJECTIVES. And it wont be an issue.

Players should be able to see and face the players attacking them. They didnt ask for the attack. And they also cant defend against the attack. They only get to fix what they are screwing up behind the scenes, they have no chance to stop them from doing it.

You should never have to farm just because someone else decided to be a pain in your factions butt, with no consequences for the person/group causing trouble.

Again you cant even claim the bounty on the bounty boards. Even though you know they are there. A PVP Mechanic not being used.

Literally half this games mechanics and modules aren't being used because of this issue alone.

You Park 3/4's of all your engineering and go into solo and private in a barebones ship to be more efficient than taking defenses for open play.

I just dont see it continuing to be this way. Its not healthy for game or players once they reach this point of the game.

I must have missed the announcement about the new scanner which can show you what missions someone else is running. Or were you just planning on murdering Cmdrs at random? Seems like a good way you lower your faction's influence.

Cop killing in a cheap ship is easy.
Rebuys are easy to recover.
The time you spend patrolling Res and Nav Beacons is time you're not contributing any influence, while they can just run Inf+5 missions until you log out.

But you know all of this, because it's been explained repeatedly.
Enjoy your nail.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I must have missed the announcement about the new scanner which can show you what missions someone else is running. Or were you just planning on murdering Cmdrs at random? Seems like a good way you lower your faction's influence.

Cop killing in a cheap ship is easy.
Rebuys are easy to recover.
The time you spend patrolling Res and Nav Beacons is time you're not contributing any influence, while they can just run Inf+5 missions until you log out.

But you know all of this, because it's been explained repeatedly.
Enjoy your nail.

This is not that difficult to figure out.

If it were restricted to open, youd see people passing through, and you'd see people continuously being there.

The argument you are making here is no different than the argument you were making for powerplay. They are adding powerplay missions too.

Also, this from the focused feedback thread.

Squadrons and factions

We are aware that some groups will want to align their Squadron with a faction. We are currently looking at how we can make this work and allow Squadrons to ‘fly the flag’ of a faction. This is something we will be discussing during a latter Focused Feedback thread, so please avoid discussing this for now.

There are things in the game that does make this difficult. But we are looking at the future and how to balance that gameplay around whats happening now; changes to be made.

Player groups will have faction tags as well. And trust me I dont mind killing a lone wolf either.

Also, stop acting as if one person is doing all these things at once. This is about groups of people doing stuff. My group is so big that I can afford to sit at a star and wait if I really wanted to. While everyone else does some BGS work. It wouldnt be the first time I've ran escorts for my player faction that was getting attacked in open.

After the attacks though, they go into solo and private after their loss and continue attacking a player faction. Which is the whole issue here. Wins and losses mean nothing.

And they should.

Hey maybe a Blockade would actually mean something.

 

[Mohrgan]

This is not that difficult to figure out.

If it were restricted to open, youd see people passing through, and you'd see people continuously being there.

The argument you are making here is no different than the argument you were making for powerplay. They are adding powerplay missions too.

Also, this from the focused feedback thread.

Squadrons and factions

We are aware that some groups will want to align their Squadron with a faction. We are currently looking at how we can make this work and allow Squadrons to ‘fly the flag’ of a faction. This is something we will be discussing during a latter Focused Feedback thread, so please avoid discussing this for now.

There are things in the game that does make this difficult. But we are looking at the future and how to balance that gameplay around whats happening now; changes to be made.

Player groups will have faction tags as well. And trust me I dont mind killing a lone wolf either.

Also, stop acting as if one person is doing all these things at once. This is about groups of people doing stuff. My group is so big that I can afford to sit at a star and wait if I really wanted to. While everyone else does some BGS work. It wouldnt be the first time I've ran escorts for my player faction that was getting attacked in open.

After the attacks though, they go into solo and private after their loss and continue attacking a player faction. Which is the whole issue here. Wins and losses mean nothing.

And they should.

Hey maybe a Blockade would actually mean something.

So sayeth the hammer.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So sayeth the hammer.

Hammers get the job done.