About the 400 billion star systems

Elite is the extreme realisation of the 'see that mountain, you can go there' idea in gaming.

You can criticise that and say that the more you spread things out, the duller things become. However I find the idea that you can look at a single star out there, and know that that star is its own system, with planets and other unknown objects orbiting it... simply amazing. It brings a richness to the immediate experience and environment of the game- even if you never went to any of those other stars, you still benefit because you really feel you are immersed inside a real galaxy, and not just a pretty textured box.
 
Taking EVE as an example, I've played since 2005 and there are parts of space I've never been to (mostly Russian 0.0 and the far-east side of the cluster past Providence and the upper nort and lower south, and the majority of high-sec I've never been in), and EVE is small in comparison to the 400 billion in ED, even though it is the second biggest playable space in a videogame. The same human psychology will populate and drive core regions of space in ED, it's just how we naturally group together.

Yep - I was very much an On-Off player since 2009, and I had great plans to see New Eden - but I can honestly say I've maybe visited about 1% of it really and certainly where I have passed through systems it's just that - I don't go visit the planets or points of interest.

Ever take the Trip to the New Eden star system? Despite it being "the birthplace of New Eden" that is a very dead part of space - you'll occasionally pass one or two ships on the way down.

Go through a wormhole into Nullsec areas like Geminate or Peregrin Falls - you could jump around pretty much unbothered and not see anyone except close to the Lowsec/Highsec exits. Sure systems had bubbles up on the gates but a well equipped T3 would have no bother with that.

I expect it'll be much of the same here - where the starter systems are defined will be the "core" experience and most players won't jump too far from these bubbles with their core trading/piracy characters. Even most explorer characters I don't expect to go more than 1000Ly away from core systems. There are more than enough stars to visit in that bubble.

Looking forward to seeing the people trying to get to the core of the galaxy, I wish them the best of luck :D
 
My concern is that this will not be possible anymore with 400 billion of them, they will become "bland" and "soulless".

And quite frankly, i don't see the point to have that much systems. It seems overkill to me.

Plus the fact quantity often drags down quality (very generic star system names for instance)

Plus the fact it will be scarce to see other player characters.

Wouldn't a thousand be more than enough ?

You always have the option to stay away from the unknown and keep to your comfort zone. You don't have to go out.

... but who knows what's out there? Aren't you just a little bit curious? ;)
 
If you're doing something involving "people", whether players or NPCs, then you'll be staying in the few star systems in more populated space. Most activity will naturally be concentrated around a small number of systems.

The rest of the stars are for things like exploration or claiming new space where "quantity" is more important.
 
Hi commanders,

What is your opinion about the 400 billion star systems thing ?

One thing i like with the beta is getting familiar with current systems, and this is possible because there is only 55 of them. When i talk about the game with a friend of mine (he plays too), naming "LHS 3262" or "Morgor" has a real meaning to him because he knows well that place too.

This allows us to develop a certain "affection" with a system or another.

My concern is that this will not be possible anymore with 400 billion of them, they will become "bland" and "soulless".

And quite frankly, i don't see the point to have that much systems. It seems overkill to me.

Plus the fact quantity often drags down quality (very generic star system names for instance)

Plus the fact it will be scarce to see other player characters.

Wouldn't a thousand be more than enough ?



No, to get that true realistic psychological experience of endless, limitless space, you also need the numbers and the distances. That simply is what space is. That is where other limited sector based spacesims have always failed miserably. Ever since Frontier I have been searching for that same feeling and now finally ED is here to deliver.

And you will still feel affection for certain systems, but this depends upon how they look, the stuff you experience there and how these systems are brought to life by FD. Of course you won't be able to feel affection for billions of systems, and you will never see them all, but do not underestimate the psychological importance of their presence in the game, whether you visit them or not.
 
Building the galaxy 1:1 with the real amount of stars is actually a lot simpler to implement than having to scale it down.
Because when scaling it down, where do you put all the known stars? if you keep the real distances then they will end up in awkward places in the galaxy and things would need to be rectified in some way.
Same with how the night sky would look from earth, now they can simple simulate it directly from the galaxy map, if it's scaled down they would have to mess around a lot to get it right. And not just the stars, but all nebulae and their sizes, and the galactic disc and center that's visible aswell, all would have to be scaled in awkward proportions to try and fit it all together.

They have the technology to make a 1:1 galaxy, and it will be as real as it can possibly be at current technological limits for a game on a home pc.
Scaling it down would be a mess really.
So all you have to do is realize that all those starsystems aren't just placed there for you to explore, they are just there, and you could explore them, but not all of them.
The galaxy will feel unfathomably big, as it should be.
 
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One thing i like with the beta is getting familiar with current systems, and this is possible because there is only 55 of them. When i talk about the game with a friend of mine (he plays too), naming "LHS 3262" or "Morgor" has a real meaning to him because he knows well that place too.

This allows us to develop a certain "affection" with a system or another
As you may have deduced from the replies up to now, most of us feel differently, and we're excited about an infinite play area. Not really infinite of course but the effect on game play will be the same as if it were.

You're viewpoint is not unprecedented. I suspect a certain segment of the Elite population will be "stay at homes". There is something to be said for learning one corner of the galaxy intimately

You have an affection for the area around I Bootis? Stay there. Ignore the rest. Problem solved. But, if you do get tired of one area, the galaxy awaits.
 
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It makes practically no difference if there are 400 thousand, 400 million or 400 billion stars available, the point is that the play area is essentially borderless and you can go anywhere in any direction.
 
It makes practically no difference if there are 400 thousand, 400 million or 400 billion stars available, the point is that the play area is essentially borderless and you can go anywhere in any direction.

Yes you're right, you will be free to go anywhere in any direction, but to do and see exactly the same few things each time.

Each one of us will barely go through 1 % of those 400 billions star systems before quit playing Elite Dangerous and move to something else.

Don't be naïves, even exploring will be redundant up to a point. When you will have seen every different types of spaceports, outposts, hotspots, etc., there will be, you will quickly lose interest to wander any further.
The 99 % left will just be the same, but with a random combination of already seen stuff.

And i'm sure of one thing, from a quality standpoint, procedural generation of content cannot match content hand-made my developers.

So yeah, i would rather have a huge but well crafted play area than a limitless but "always the same but with some slight variations" play area.

And i'm not even speaking about planetary landing where the procedural generation will feel even more obvious i fear.
 
Elite will have tons of hand crafted content. Probably more than a certain other space game in fact, they just don't shout about it from the rooftops because it's not actually a terribly big deal.

Hand crafted is the norm in the industry, it's not a selling point.
And i'm sure of one thing, from a quality standpoint, procedural generation of content cannot match content hand-made my developers.
Yes it can, because it's produced in exactly the same way... procedural generation is just a million times more efficient.

You're telling me every hand crafted game ever made has completely unique and compelling content everywhere? No, they very clearly don't. They're just as prone to samey, repeated content. Arguably more so in fact, because you can bet your life after a designer has produced his 50th level he's probably right out of unique ideas, and bored to tears to boot.

Human beings aren't the fonts of infinite creativity you seem to think they are. Procedural generation is a tool that allows artists and designers make their work go further.

What you're effectively saying here is a hole dug with a spade is inherently better than one dug with a JCB. If that sounds like a dumb position to take, that's because it is.
 
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Exactly!

Sure, I understand that procedural generation never can be truly artistic (well, actually I don't truly agree with that now that I think of it), but is procedural generation bland and samey? No it's not, and if it is, it is because the methods used create bland and samey stuff.
 
Why 400 billion systems?

That's a rehash of one of mankind's great questions...

Why sail the ocean into the unknown?

Why climb the mountain?

... because it's there!
 
If you feel comfortable with tootling around in 20 systems, great. That's an awesome and authentic way of playing.

For me, once I'm tooled up and funded, I,m headed out. That means away from the core and into the void.
 
Yes you're right, you will be free to go anywhere in any direction, but to do and see exactly the same few things each time.

Each one of us will barely go through 1 % of those 400 billions star systems before quit playing Elite Dangerous and move to something else.

Don't be naïves, even exploring will be redundant up to a point. When you will have seen every different types of spaceports, outposts, hotspots, etc., there will be, you will quickly lose interest to wander any further.
The 99 % left will just be the same, but with a random combination of already seen stuff.

And i'm sure of one thing, from a quality standpoint, procedural generation of content cannot match content hand-made my developers.

So yeah, i would rather have a huge but well crafted play area than a limitless but "always the same but with some slight variations" play area.

And i'm not even speaking about planetary landing where the procedural generation will feel even more obvious i fear.

It can be done incredibly well, and it can be very compelling.

Examples?

Elite
Frontier: Elite 2
Frontier: First Encounters
 
Yes you're right, you will be free to go anywhere in any direction, but to do and see exactly the same few things each time.

Each one of us will barely go through 1 % of those 400 billions star systems before quit playing Elite Dangerous and move to something else.

Don't be naïves, even exploring will be redundant up to a point. When you will have seen every different types of spaceports, outposts, hotspots, etc., there will be, you will quickly lose interest to wander any further.
The 99 % left will just be the same, but with a random combination of already seen stuff.

And i'm sure of one thing, from a quality standpoint, procedural generation of content cannot match content hand-made my developers.

So yeah, i would rather have a huge but well crafted play area than a limitless but "always the same but with some slight variations" play area.

And i'm not even speaking about planetary landing where the procedural generation will feel even more obvious i fear.

A game this size simply can't be done with handcrafting alone.
Even if you had 10000 developers in some sweatshop working 18 hours a day it would take years and they would barely have a few 1:1 size planets or systems perhaps.
The only ways to multiply your efficiency is by either copy pasting your work, or using procedural generation.
Both rely on using basic building blocks which builds up your world.

Handcrafted design will require big building blocks to speed up assembly.
It's often visible in more conventional games where you can see the same houses, tables, trees and other props allover the game world, maybe with a few variations but that's it.
The only way to make things feel more unique is to lower the scale so that duplication of props happens less.
Problem is then that your game world will be small, and you will be seeing the same locations over and over again.

Procedural generation also uses building blocks, but due to the fact that the brunt of the work is being handled by algorithms and such ,it can do much much more in a short time. This allows building blocks to be very small, which makes it so that there is a much bigger variation in items and props around the world.
These things can further be influenced by artists to implement their own design to override what the program has assembled, either by direct implementation or by tweaking the assembly algorithms.
What you have then is a possibility of making a nearly limitless game world where there is very little duplication of patterns or props if the building blocks are small.

So in handcrafted vs PG you have these two choices.
You either have a small game world, or a large one with a lot of duplication, either way you will be visiting the same locations over and over.
Or you have a huge world, where due to the enormous amount of locations, some are bound to be similar (there's only so many ways you can create a gas giant for example), but none of them will ever the the same.
 
Hi commanders,

What is your opinion about the 400 billion star systems thing ?

One thing i like with the beta is getting familiar with current systems, and this is possible because there is only 55 of them. When i talk about the game with a friend of mine (he plays too), naming "LHS 3262" or "Morgor" has a real meaning to him because he knows well that place too.

This allows us to develop a certain "affection" with a system or another.

My concern is that this will not be possible anymore with 400 billion of them, they will become "bland" and "soulless".

And quite frankly, i don't see the point to have that much systems. It seems overkill to me.

Plus the fact quantity often drags down quality (very generic star system names for instance)

Plus the fact it will be scarce to see other player characters.

Wouldn't a thousand be more than enough ?

There are no 4 billion star systems.

It's one billion star SYSTEMS, binary and trinary systems make that number around 4 billion stars, not star systems.
 
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