Does Frontier hate explorers?

Quite a bit of Exploration stuff is coming in Q4, as well you know. Maybe the Focused Feedback for Exploration will also show up at some point.

*reads included quote*

Wait... they’re planning on adding more frelling functionality to the Detailed Surface scanner? How did I miss that?

It’s bad enough that they removed any need to visit a planet’s surface to obtain material data, thus making an SRV an optional (though nice) extra, but probes aren’t going to be their own separate module? No need to agonize over what modules you’d like to bring on a trip???
 
*reads included quote*

Wait... they’re planning on adding more frelling functionality to the Detailed Surface scanner? How did I miss that?

It’s bad enough that they removed any need to visit a planet’s surface to obtain material data, thus making an SRV an optional (though nice) extra, but probes aren’t going to be their own separate module? No need to agonize over what modules you’d like to bring on a trip???

That's because someone decided that expanding exploration would make it too "contrived" yet we can have a hundred different kinds of weapons for making things explode and that's perfectly logical. ;)
 
Combat being the low hanging fruit theory? The easy stuff for Frontier do develop, the most cost effective bang for their dollar?

There may be some truth to that. It might be cheaper to make combat content than non combat. Sadly though that does not make for a better and more balanced game. The unfortunate truth may be that Frontier is more concerned with balancing the books than retaining their players.

Elite has such great potential though which is currently going untapped, and I really feel like it could be an even larger money maker for them if they just developed it with a more balanced progression strategy.

I really don’t understand how you think combat is being pandered for. Everything implemented is superficial and mostly locked behind a grind wall, there is no real gameplay, no strategy, no thought process required, just the same mindless pew pew it has always been.
 
Wait... they’re planning on adding more frelling functionality to the Detailed Surface scanner? How did I miss that?

Last we heard from Sandro, probes will be fired from the DSS and stored/consumed via an ammo counter like the AFMU. Of course, all of that may have changed in the past half year, so what it will end up being is only known to Frontier at this point.
 
I really don’t understand how you think combat is being pandered for. Everything implemented is superficial and mostly locked behind a grind wall, there is no real gameplay, no strategy, no thought process required, just the same mindless pew pew it has always been.

What rock have you been hiding under since this game released? I'm hoping that's sarcasm.
 
*reads included quote*

Wait... they’re planning on adding more frelling functionality to the Detailed Surface scanner? How did I miss that?

It’s bad enough that they removed any need to visit a planet’s surface to obtain material data, thus making an SRV an optional (though nice) extra, but probes aren’t going to be their own separate module? No need to agonize over what modules you’d like to bring on a trip???

They said the rationale there was so that explorers in the black wouldn't have to return to the bubble to lay hands on the kit when 3.3 dropped.

Which is weird really. Missed out on a chance to punish explorers some more.
 
  • They agree to jump Jaques Station out to Beagle Point at the conclusion of the DWE, wait until lots of explorers fly there or wait around for him to arrive, but then instead jump him completely somewhere else.
The whole thing with Jaques isn't FD hating explorers. It's FD hating anything to do with rare goods.

That's not sarcasm either.
 
What rock have you been hiding under since this game released? I'm hoping that's sarcasm.

Perhaps I think there must be an element of sarcasm with explorers cries. Let me think ��, what has been the biggest implementation since the game was released, oh yeah, landing on planets. Or do you consider that combat because you can shoot at rocks
 
I don't see it as hate toward explorers...more that multiplayer space combat is the feature that FDev's focus group picked up as a mechanic to draw in more players, create player involvement in the new Squadrons feature and generate...what FDev imagine... is emergent player content.

Creating opportunity to attract fresh, new players by tailoring the game toward the current multiplayer game meta in the games industry is an obvious choice to assure new money.

Meanwhile...all that combat focus is seriously ratting off those of us who seek no part of it...so it looks like we're being pushed out in favour of new blood ;)
 
This isn't sarcasm, I honestly do wonder sometimes if Frontier despises their sizeable exploration community?

They seem to either willfully disregard explorers or simply don't consider them. One signals neglect while the other signifies a dislike of some kind. I'm just wondering which is it?


  • They implement geysers and fumeroles to find on planet surfaces but with no tools at all to find them, forcing explorers to scour planets with their eyeballs only which can take dozens of frustrating hours.
  • They turn the galaxy beige for an entire year before finally fixing their mistake. (Admittedly with improvements too, though we did not regain the lost terrain details)
  • They neglect improving exploration mechanics for four years, not since 1.0.
  • After four years we still don't have any exploration missions in the game.
  • Frontier removed Exploration CGs completely.
  • Neutron Jumps were a dev mistake, and if not for the exploration community begging and pleading to keep it as a "feature" we wouldn't have them today. It never even occurred to Frontier that it might be a meaningful mechanic until then.
  • They finally add heat sink synthesis, only to make it require manufactured materials, meaning you cannot replenish it at all out there on your own. They entirely forgot that heat sinks had uses beyond spamming them together with shield cells.
  • They promise an Exploration Feedback Forum for the Q4 improvements but then delay it, then delay it again, and now it's postponed indefinitely with no new date at all.
  • They "prioritized" the Ice Planet improvements out of 3.3 and won't answer the question if they are scheduled for a later date or completely cut from the roadmap.
  • They implement Multicrew as combat only with no exploration use at all. They don't even make SRV's, a common exploration feature, compatible with Multicrew.
  • Over half of the ships in Elite are combat oriented while only two are designed with exploration in mind, and ironically the most capable explorer is neither of them and is in fact a multirole ship.
  • One of the "exploration" ships also has the slowest fuel scoop rate in the entire game, a key module for exploration.
  • They agree to jump Jaques Station out to Beagle Point at the conclusion of the DWE, wait until lots of explorers fly there or wait around for him to arrive, but then instead jump him completely somewhere else.
  • And the latest addition to the list, they have no problem usurping a Canonn exploration event into a combat only affair, at the expense of non combat explorer ships no less, while simultaneously negating any exploration gameplay from the event at all. Despite thousands of explorers flying to the Gnosis eager for a rare exploration event in the game.

As an explorer it often feels like Frontier doesn't consider the playstyle when developing the game, or when creating and managing events. It often feels like they vastly prefer the combat playstyle over exploration. I know Q4 is finally supposed to include major exploration improvements, but given Frontier's behavior regarding explorers I'm worried that their temperment will prevent them from moving this aspect of the game forward in a meaningful manner.

I really just wish Frontier was as thoughtful, considerate, and respectful towards explorers (and non combat players in general) as they were to the combat crowd. I really wish exploration would get half of the development focus and resources that combat gets.

There are three Elite ranks in the game, my hope is that someday Frontier develops with that triad in mind in a more balanced manner than they have up until now. Combat, Trading, and Exploration. The game could use a greater focus on the latter two than the former first from now on.

Pretty Please. With sugar on top. With Lavian Brandy icing smothered all around it too.

You forgot one:
- FD launches Update 1.4 (CQC) which completely borks unsaved exploration data. FD's advice: "Don't move your ship or scan anything until we get it sorted out. Meanwhile, why don't you go play CQC?". Explorers are left stranded for two weeks. It happens again when 1.5/2.0 launches (but is resolved much faster), leaving explorers with the lesson many of them still live by: "Don't be out exploring when an update lands".

As for the OP's hypothesis that "they hate us", I wouldn't go that far. It's merely that exploration has never been at the forefront of the Elite games. ED is the first Elite game with any actual Exploration mechanism in it at all. The original Elite was marketed as a "space trading and combat game": trading, then combat. It was set in a fully explored galaxy with no exploration possible. Yes, you theoretically could explore in FE2, and especially in FFE once you're given the end-game 600-LY-jump-capable Thargoid scout ship to fly. But you couldn't actually do anything with the stuff you found. You couldn't scan it or sell it, or take a mission to go and explore somewhere.

I remember at the end of FFE, I was jumping around the galaxy randomly out in Unexplored space (which was anywhere over 1000 LYs away from Sol in that game). After a few jumps I found an Earth-like planet (they were much easier to find in FFE) and landed on it. But then what? I had no planet-scanner to acquire data, no SRV to collect samples. The only thing I had was a camera (which took pretend pictures) and a mining rig, so I deployed the mining rig and it told me it was a life-bearing planet with no mineral prospects. So I launched and left the system, and the game did not remember that I had discovered that ELW or even visited that star system. Billions of stars to "explore", but zero recognition from the game that I was doing any actual exploring.

So from that perspective, Exploration has come a long way and been improved greatly. But it is still a distant third, behind trade and combat (though I agree that in ED, the priorities are now "combat, then trade"). I recall watching the original livestreams where the game was being pitched. People asked if they would be able to visit the Galactic Core and the FD staff answer could be summed up: "why would anybody want to do that? It would be hard to get to and take a long time and there wouldn't really be anything to see there". ED was very slow at grasping the concept that building a 400 billion star galaxy would attract players who would want to do nothing else but go out and explore that galaxy.
 
This isn't sarcasm, I honestly do wonder sometimes if Frontier despises their sizeable exploration community?

They seem to either willfully disregard explorers or simply don't consider them. One signals neglect while the other signifies a dislike of some kind. I'm just wondering which is it?


  • They implement geysers and fumeroles to find on planet surfaces but with no tools at all to find them, forcing explorers to scour planets with their eyeballs only which can take dozens of frustrating hours.
  • They turn the galaxy beige for an entire year before finally fixing their mistake. (Admittedly with improvements too, though we did not regain the lost terrain details)
  • They neglect improving exploration mechanics for four years, not since 1.0.
  • After four years we still don't have any exploration missions in the game.
  • Frontier removed Exploration CGs completely.
  • Neutron Jumps were a dev mistake, and if not for the exploration community begging and pleading to keep it as a "feature" we wouldn't have them today. It never even occurred to Frontier that it might be a meaningful mechanic until then.
  • They finally add heat sink synthesis, only to make it require manufactured materials, meaning you cannot replenish it at all out there on your own. They entirely forgot that heat sinks had uses beyond spamming them together with shield cells.
  • They promise an Exploration Feedback Forum for the Q4 improvements but then delay it, then delay it again, and now it's postponed indefinitely with no new date at all.
  • They "prioritized" the Ice Planet improvements out of 3.3 and won't answer the question if they are scheduled for a later date or completely cut from the roadmap.
  • They implement Multicrew as combat only with no exploration use at all. They don't even make SRV's, a common exploration feature, compatible with Multicrew.
  • Over half of the ships in Elite are combat oriented while only two are designed with exploration in mind, and ironically the most capable explorer is neither of them and is in fact a multirole ship.
  • One of the "exploration" ships also has the slowest fuel scoop rate in the entire game, a key module for exploration.
  • They agree to jump Jaques Station out to Beagle Point at the conclusion of the DWE, wait until lots of explorers fly there or wait around for him to arrive, but then instead jump him completely somewhere else.
  • And the latest addition to the list, they have no problem usurping a Canonn exploration event into a combat only affair, at the expense of non combat explorer ships no less, while simultaneously negating any exploration gameplay from the event at all. Despite thousands of explorers flying to the Gnosis eager for a rare exploration event in the game.

As an explorer it often feels like Frontier doesn't consider the playstyle when developing the game, or when creating and managing events. It often feels like they vastly prefer the combat playstyle over exploration. I know Q4 is finally supposed to include major exploration improvements, but given Frontier's behavior regarding explorers I'm worried that their temperment will prevent them from moving this aspect of the game forward in a meaningful manner.

I really just wish Frontier was as thoughtful, considerate, and respectful towards explorers (and non combat players in general) as they were to the combat crowd. I really wish exploration would get half of the development focus and resources that combat gets.

There are three Elite ranks in the game, my hope is that someday Frontier develops with that triad in mind in a more balanced manner than they have up until now. Combat, Trading, and Exploration. The game could use a greater focus on the latter two than the former first from now on.

Pretty Please. With sugar on top. With Lavian Brandy icing smothered all around it too.

Hatred or despising someone is a loaded word, and suggests the OP is exaggerating.

I too want to go back out exploring again, once Q4 has landed, and I too want to explore some realistic sights in the galaxy with realistic (ok they may have to be a bit gamey) tools. We won't know what to expect until it lands, I guess, then we can judge FD properly, in a balanced way based on effort, rather than apprehension.

I think that Michael Brookes was always on the explorer's side, even though he took forever to come back on the beige issue. He has always wanted the galaxy to be more accessible (there are quotes about him saying this somewhere), so that the huge distances were not so forbidding. Hence we have had neutron star jumping, later we've had jumponium and engineerng of FSD drives,, and later still we've had the introduction of Guardian boost to our FSDs. So the accessibility part is being taken care of, albeit in stages.

Yes, they've put some sights and sounds into the galaxy to discover, but we've lacked the tools to find them. Silly really how brilliant minds can come up with that obvious failing.

Now at Q4, we are expecting (hoping) that we will be able to find 'stuff' on planets and we are promised more. Well let's hope so. I don't see the promised improvements coming as a result of dislike for explorers, more a fondness and an embarassment of ignorance about how their minds work.

The FFF is, as we know, overdue. We now know they were not working as hard as we thought on the next release .... they've only just started. So if it's exploration orientated, and it might be with atmospheric planets (what else can you do with them ?), now we know why. Expect a FFF later this year after Q4.

But please, let's lose the "they hate us" attitude.:)
 
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Perhaps I think there must be an element of sarcasm with explorers cries. Let me think ��, what has been the biggest implementation since the game was released, oh yeah, landing on planets. Or do you consider that combat because you can shoot at rocks

Landing on planets... to combat skimmers. Oh and hack into computer systems. And destroy turrets.

How many CG's have been exploration oriented as opposed to combat oriented? And let's not even get started on the Gnosis.
 
But passenger missions for hauling Famous Explorers to the large collection of crowdsourced tourist locations are explicitly exploration missions? That whole system gave all of the early explorers a chance to permanently put their mark into the gameworld and are also some of the most lucrative missions in the game. They also allow more recent explorers to follow in the footsteps of our trailblazing brothers and sisters while getting a big fat bonus when we make it back safely.

There are also the salvage contract missions that are explicitly linked to Exploration rating.

My "exploration ship" is an Orca.
 
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Afaik Dr Ross wasn't a consultant on exploration gameplay, which is what I referring to above. Apart from a few age-range errors, the galaxy sim is just fine. What is extremely empty and arcade like is the non-existent exploration mechanics. To this, they are adding mining and probes. The mining part looks fine (frontier has geology people on their actual dev team iirc). What is lacking is their astrometrics dept. There frankly isn't one. If there was, then we would have a HUD design that showed "predator-like" different false color wavelengths of light and spit out telltale spectrographic patterns literally showing you the elements on the planet.

We would be able to see the entire galaxy (or a particular star or planet) in any of the following wavelength regimes:

mwmw_8x10.jpg



We would also have an onboard telescope to zoom in on and ID any star or object we could see from ships. That means never having to wonder "what star formation is that over there?" by guesstimating on the galmap. That means being able to zoom in and see visible (illuminated+facing) planet surfaces from anywhere inside a system. That means being able to visually resolve and zoom in on persistent POIs from Orbit!
 
what has been the biggest implementation since the game was released, oh yeah, landing on planets. Or do you consider that combat because you can shoot at rocks

Not just shooting rocks my friend, but, shooting skimmers, shooting goliaths, shooting barnacles, shooting obelisks, shooting parts of bases, shooting turrets while they’re shooting at you, and now, even shooting random landed NPC ships parked on the surface of planets and moons.

No doubt the Horizons patch was a massive boon for explorers. However, it is a true fact that a lot of the game play developed for planetary surfaces results in shooting. And this type of gameplay has been consistent since release.

Flimley
 
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Afaik Dr Ross wasn't a consultant on exploration gameplay, which is what I referring to above. Apart from a few age-range errors, the galaxy sim is just fine. What is extremely empty and arcade like is the non-existent exploration mechanics. To this, they are adding mining and probes. The mining part looks fine (frontier has geology people on their actual dev team iirc). What is lacking is their astrometrics dept. There frankly isn't one. If there was, then we would have a HUD design that showed "predator-like" different false color wavelengths of light and spit out telltale spectrographic patterns literally showing you the elements on the planet.

We would be able to see the entire galaxy (or a particular star or planet) in any of the following wavelength regimes:

We would also have an onboard telescope to zoom in on and ID any star or object we could see from ships. That means never having to wonder "what star formation is that over there?" by guesstimating on the galmap. That means being able to zoom in and see visible (illuminated+facing) planet surfaces from anywhere inside a system. That means being able to visually resolve and zoom in on persistent POIs from Orbit!

Or at least the option to upgrade Sensors/Scanning equipment to utilize such features, indeed. :)

Of course, that would make exploration gameplay a bit more "engaging", require a bit more effort than ADS honk-n-scan. It appears that a thousand years from now we're still supposed to rely on human eyesight in order to spot objects in space, however. But, by all means, let's put more effort into remote turret systems, gimballing, a wide variety of ways to make ships explode, combat arenas, and political intrigue for people to fight over.
 
Not just shooting rocks my friend, but, shooting skimmers, shooting goliaths, shooting barnacles, shooting obelisks, shooting parts of bases, and now, even shooting random landed NPC ships parked on the surface of planets and moons.

No doubt the Horizons patch was a massive boon for explorers. However, it is a true fact that a lot of the game play developed for planetary surfaces results in shooting. And this type of gameplay has been consistent since release.

Flimley

Be fair - once in a while you get to scan something (while something else shoots at YOU).
 
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