Mr. Braben is totally wrong about VR
- Thread starter psefergr
- Start date
I simply would not play this (or any other) game without VR support. I do not and have not played any non-VR game (other than a slight dabble) since the arrival of my DK1 in 2013.
VR support is going nowhere, the game is sold on the Oculus store so unless FDEV want to refund every copy sold on that platform I doubt they'd drop support for it.
For those wishing to place blame on VR for the slowing development of this game I would suggest you take a good hard look at game console support and cast your thoughts to how long it takes to optimise new features so they work on those out dated, lack luster platforms. I very much doubt that new features are even tested in VR and haven't been for a long time (*looks at the multicrew radar*), they just work out of the box for most part and if issues are found during beta testing they are cleaned up at a later date if at all.
VR is something I dreamt of as a young lad while playing games on my CPC464 / NES. I'd even admit to being a little jealous of 'Captain N' back in the day... Now that VR is here and I have it, I can't say I'm dissapointed in the least. Generation 1 VR, even with its flaws has brought something to gaming that I hadn't seen since the jump from 16-Bit to 3D rendered worlds (something I also recall as being called a gimick and that 2D platformers would continue to rule), generation 1.5 has some nice improvements and other than the complaints about "strapping something to my head" addresses most other concerns in regard to VR (obviously not price!), when generation 2 VR HMDs release people jaws will well and truely drop.
Oh and I do have to laugh at those people saying "I prefer my 4k display due to its superior FOV and resolution". While you have a superior res, your FOV is well and truely inferior - I won't even mention the issues with scale when playing on a screen....or even comment on the gimmick known as the "curved display"...
TrackIR - give me a break... tried it, used it for a considerable amount time and have to say that using it on a 2D screen it didn't really work too well, it worked better strapped to a 3D personal viewer such as a Sony HMZ-TX, which was pretty much my first goto "VR" experience prior to the Oculus dev kits.
VR support is going nowhere, the game is sold on the Oculus store so unless FDEV want to refund every copy sold on that platform I doubt they'd drop support for it.
For those wishing to place blame on VR for the slowing development of this game I would suggest you take a good hard look at game console support and cast your thoughts to how long it takes to optimise new features so they work on those out dated, lack luster platforms. I very much doubt that new features are even tested in VR and haven't been for a long time (*looks at the multicrew radar*), they just work out of the box for most part and if issues are found during beta testing they are cleaned up at a later date if at all.
VR is something I dreamt of as a young lad while playing games on my CPC464 / NES. I'd even admit to being a little jealous of 'Captain N' back in the day... Now that VR is here and I have it, I can't say I'm dissapointed in the least. Generation 1 VR, even with its flaws has brought something to gaming that I hadn't seen since the jump from 16-Bit to 3D rendered worlds (something I also recall as being called a gimick and that 2D platformers would continue to rule), generation 1.5 has some nice improvements and other than the complaints about "strapping something to my head" addresses most other concerns in regard to VR (obviously not price!), when generation 2 VR HMDs release people jaws will well and truely drop.
Oh and I do have to laugh at those people saying "I prefer my 4k display due to its superior FOV and resolution". While you have a superior res, your FOV is well and truely inferior - I won't even mention the issues with scale when playing on a screen....or even comment on the gimmick known as the "curved display"...
TrackIR - give me a break... tried it, used it for a considerable amount time and have to say that using it on a 2D screen it didn't really work too well, it worked better strapped to a 3D personal viewer such as a Sony HMZ-TX, which was pretty much my first goto "VR" experience prior to the Oculus dev kits.
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While I simply cannot play this game on a monitor anymore, I don't think Mr. Braben is wrong about VR.
It is niche: Most VR headsets cost as much as a mid-range computer or two game consoles, and so can the graphics card needed to run it.
The resolution isn't there yet: I've got a Vive, and while I can read most of the information in my ship, I have to lean forward in order to read the Com Panel. While I wouldn't say 4k per eye is a must, there is plenty of room for improvement.
The field of view can be improved: I'm not bothered too much by it, since I'm a glasses user and I'm not used to peripheral vision, but I understand where people are coming from.
Other improvements are needed: At the very least, eye tracking and foveated rendering are needed if VR technology is ever to go anywhere mainstream.
VR technology is awesome. The feeling of being in my space ship, rather than simply watching the bridge from a tiny window in front of me, is a complete game changer. I'll never be able to use a non-VR flight sim again. But the necessary hardware get this experience costs as much as a decent used car.
It is niche: Most VR headsets cost as much as a mid-range computer or two game consoles, and so can the graphics card needed to run it.
The resolution isn't there yet: I've got a Vive, and while I can read most of the information in my ship, I have to lean forward in order to read the Com Panel. While I wouldn't say 4k per eye is a must, there is plenty of room for improvement.
The field of view can be improved: I'm not bothered too much by it, since I'm a glasses user and I'm not used to peripheral vision, but I understand where people are coming from.
Other improvements are needed: At the very least, eye tracking and foveated rendering are needed if VR technology is ever to go anywhere mainstream.
VR technology is awesome. The feeling of being in my space ship, rather than simply watching the bridge from a tiny window in front of me, is a complete game changer. I'll never be able to use a non-VR flight sim again. But the necessary hardware get this experience costs as much as a decent used car.
To be honest gen 1 VR HMDs costs less now than a decent HOTAS and pedal setup and the price will only get lower. If you look at some of the WMR HMDs they are already really cheap...You can pay as much if not or more for a decent keyboard and mouse than you could pick up say a Lenovo Explorer for. The 10 series NVidia GPU prices will start to drop soon as well. The entry price for VR will soon be quite reasonable.
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With so many "resources" going into VR for Elite why is it really nothing more then a fancy head look/mouse look? I mean Vorpex can do that with most FPS games. And I think just some random dude made that app in the beginning. Where's the VR UI, touch controls, on screen keyboard, functional galaxy map? The previously mentioned SkyrimVR & FalloutVR both have VR UI, touch controls and movement that's quite a bit different then the base game.
Honestly this topic has been done to death.
And blown way out of proportion.
As for niche, well currently yes, and that's not a bad thing.
What other things where niche once?
Cell phones where a highly niche product not that long ago, but for the last 15 years I haven't known someone to not have one.
Headphones,
In the 80's and most 90's I was possibly the only guy walking around with headphones and music on in my town.
Now it's literally everyone with a pair of wireless cans or buds.
Already since elite launched with dk2 support the cost of entry has at least halved.
Next gen VR will be at least 140° fov and significant higher resolution.
And future LED panels could potentially do bright AR and VR in the same device.
At worst use a sliding panel, to produce black levels. But I think we could get that down to light blocking elements in the glass as well.
In ten years time an HMD will have even less in common than a current top of the line smartphone has with its 1980's ancestor.
And blown way out of proportion.
As for niche, well currently yes, and that's not a bad thing.
What other things where niche once?
Cell phones where a highly niche product not that long ago, but for the last 15 years I haven't known someone to not have one.
Headphones,
In the 80's and most 90's I was possibly the only guy walking around with headphones and music on in my town.
Now it's literally everyone with a pair of wireless cans or buds.
Already since elite launched with dk2 support the cost of entry has at least halved.
Next gen VR will be at least 140° fov and significant higher resolution.
And future LED panels could potentially do bright AR and VR in the same device.
At worst use a sliding panel, to produce black levels. But I think we could get that down to light blocking elements in the glass as well.
In ten years time an HMD will have even less in common than a current top of the line smartphone has with its 1980's ancestor.
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VR may well be niche for the moment but it's not going anywhere, far too many practical applications for it, comparing it to 3dtv is laughable.
I'm quite happy with the way VR is implemented in the game at the moment. The Galmap works fairly well with the way I've got it set up, and I don't really fancy changing into a pair of touch controllers when I want to do anything other than fly my ship.
My biggest fear about Braben's "VR is not all that" statement is that he means no VR for Spacelegs. Us VR affectionados have the stomach for walking about, I don't use any of the anti-puke settings for SRV travel. Please Mr Braben Sir, give us our Spacelegs in glorious VR-O-Vision.
Fair point, though I would point out that I also fly realistic aircraft and drive incredibly realistic racing cars (RF2) in VR.
True, I have the sticks, pedals and steering wheels to go with VR but put it all together with a high-powered rig and even at its current state, VR is wonderful.
I now play exclusively in VR and won't go near a game if it does not support Oculus.
As for the cost, well the fact is that high-quality gaming has never been cheap.
In the 80s, I can remember buying an Atari computer and a floppy disk drive just to play the then newly released 'Flight Simulator'. The drive was more than the computer and, with a monitor, the whole setup came to the equivalent of £5,000 in today's money just to play one game...I later went on to qualify as a pilot.
Vacuum
I think there are some false assumptions up in the vacuum here.
Besides the initial setup and some added features and fixes in 2015/2016 there has been only little effort made for VR that we could see. It is very well documented in the release notes, even tiny bits are mentioned there.
To that regard VR didn’t hold back any progress as such. To the contrary a good thing of VR were some fixes in cockpits and views, that adds also to the overall game because it adds to the SIM quality when details have to stand a real 3D reality check. On the other side noting kept FDev from adding new 2d screens in gameplay after VR was well established.
Even potentially easy things to fix for VR didn’t get fixed or enhanced, like galaxy map and system map panels....
The often criticized dullness of ED is not because of VR but because of some game design decisions that are SIM oriented. Some false and odd decisions in retrospective haven’t been fixed today, designers ego cracking?
I have many ideas how to speed up the game experience. Some will be introduced with the Q4 release, but will barely fix it for action oriented users that can’t stand the slow progress and repetitive things while playing for hours. Although I must say for overall believe of the ED universe it adds a lot, space is empty and dull for the most light years one would travel, isn’t it ?...
But with something like SpaceLegs nothing will get fixed, it will even make the situation worse by far. If I would be responsible for the game developers I would give all legs affinados the boot. There is nothing worse than for experiencing a lack of content giving another option to the players for experiencing that lack of content in a different way. SpaceLegs have the potential to ruin this game for good. It is a space traveler SIM, it will never feature the detail of a Fallout or GTA that have their obvious limitations on their own and never allow for decent first person shooter elements that gamer would compare it to. It’s simply impossible and waste of resources, because the playing field is the procedural generated galaxy, there is no small world or solar system with detailed hand made structures possible as in Star Citizen, that is a completely different concept and in all it’s limits a very costly universe.
FDevs DNA is to create worlds not stories, that hasn’t changed.
If FDev really wants sth to take from RPGs it’s not the legs but how to offer story lines that work in that galaxy and give back tension and stress and rewards for the ones looking for such. There are AI developments for story telling and writing at the BBC, it’s not that hard to create distinguishable Greek drama storylines with all the elements that are available in ED out of patterns and variables, unfortunately the talent and/or vision is missing at FDev.
And that is the point where I feel so utterly let down by David Brabens interview.
It is not that he puts VR into a niche, it’s the way he speaks about it without a vision and passion only to end by pointing towards AR. There is no need for AR in ED. What we need is step by step perfection of VR experience and cockpit customization to get fully immersed. Anybody thinking the SIM genre will work without VR perfection in future has not understood the SIM genre. There ain’t no family members wanna watch my dull experience anyway, why should they. And if so they better get a spectator 3rd person view or take a copilot seat. Not a big deal really.
But first there needs to be the option for fast paced gameplay that is not dull to watch, sth in the pacing of the original elite at least. Secondly there is the need for gamer centric stories that work in the procedural world and have nothing to do with grinding. How hard can it be to adapt successful concepts like from Elder Scrolls or GTA in a sandbox this big? Of course without a better NPC representation story telling will be hard to trigger motivation.
To me it looks like lack of leadership and vision at FDev for ED. Brabens interview about ED didn’t provide any reason to think otherwise.
But hey, ppl want legs!
What a crap idea.
LoL. Over and Out.
o7
I think there are some false assumptions up in the vacuum here.
Besides the initial setup and some added features and fixes in 2015/2016 there has been only little effort made for VR that we could see. It is very well documented in the release notes, even tiny bits are mentioned there.
To that regard VR didn’t hold back any progress as such. To the contrary a good thing of VR were some fixes in cockpits and views, that adds also to the overall game because it adds to the SIM quality when details have to stand a real 3D reality check. On the other side noting kept FDev from adding new 2d screens in gameplay after VR was well established.
Even potentially easy things to fix for VR didn’t get fixed or enhanced, like galaxy map and system map panels....
The often criticized dullness of ED is not because of VR but because of some game design decisions that are SIM oriented. Some false and odd decisions in retrospective haven’t been fixed today, designers ego cracking?
I have many ideas how to speed up the game experience. Some will be introduced with the Q4 release, but will barely fix it for action oriented users that can’t stand the slow progress and repetitive things while playing for hours. Although I must say for overall believe of the ED universe it adds a lot, space is empty and dull for the most light years one would travel, isn’t it ?...
But with something like SpaceLegs nothing will get fixed, it will even make the situation worse by far. If I would be responsible for the game developers I would give all legs affinados the boot. There is nothing worse than for experiencing a lack of content giving another option to the players for experiencing that lack of content in a different way. SpaceLegs have the potential to ruin this game for good. It is a space traveler SIM, it will never feature the detail of a Fallout or GTA that have their obvious limitations on their own and never allow for decent first person shooter elements that gamer would compare it to. It’s simply impossible and waste of resources, because the playing field is the procedural generated galaxy, there is no small world or solar system with detailed hand made structures possible as in Star Citizen, that is a completely different concept and in all it’s limits a very costly universe.
FDevs DNA is to create worlds not stories, that hasn’t changed.
If FDev really wants sth to take from RPGs it’s not the legs but how to offer story lines that work in that galaxy and give back tension and stress and rewards for the ones looking for such. There are AI developments for story telling and writing at the BBC, it’s not that hard to create distinguishable Greek drama storylines with all the elements that are available in ED out of patterns and variables, unfortunately the talent and/or vision is missing at FDev.
And that is the point where I feel so utterly let down by David Brabens interview.
It is not that he puts VR into a niche, it’s the way he speaks about it without a vision and passion only to end by pointing towards AR. There is no need for AR in ED. What we need is step by step perfection of VR experience and cockpit customization to get fully immersed. Anybody thinking the SIM genre will work without VR perfection in future has not understood the SIM genre. There ain’t no family members wanna watch my dull experience anyway, why should they. And if so they better get a spectator 3rd person view or take a copilot seat. Not a big deal really.
But first there needs to be the option for fast paced gameplay that is not dull to watch, sth in the pacing of the original elite at least. Secondly there is the need for gamer centric stories that work in the procedural world and have nothing to do with grinding. How hard can it be to adapt successful concepts like from Elder Scrolls or GTA in a sandbox this big? Of course without a better NPC representation story telling will be hard to trigger motivation.
To me it looks like lack of leadership and vision at FDev for ED. Brabens interview about ED didn’t provide any reason to think otherwise.
But hey, ppl want legs!
What a crap idea.
LoL. Over and Out.
o7
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I think a lot of people are.
I sure as hell wouldnt have bought ought a new computer to play Elite in VR as VR currently is. I'm just lucky my system could handle a WMR headset.
But the upcoming generation of wide FOV VR? Oh yeah... I'll get a new system for that!
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
I agree there is work to be done... But in the 1940s when people 1st got access to TVs did people complain it was not a 70 inch surround sound set in colour or were they blown away by having a TV?.
I respect a person's personal view that for them vr is not there yet and they would rather have a screen. It's not my view but that is what these forums are for... Offering different opinions.
However people suggesting vr is not important for elite dangerous is like me saying may as well drop hotas or 3 screen support, or wheel support in a racing game.
For now is VR niche? Maybe ... But then niche is what the entire proposal of elite dangerous was built around.
Look at it this way forgetting my subjective "feelings".
Right now ED is in the top 1% of all VR games (
) not everyone who owns elite owns vr hmds..... But i tell you what, a huge amount of people who own VR own ED and as VR expands so will ED sales.On various forums i post on often new users will say "I am getting vr what are the must have games" and you know what the number 1 or 2 game is .. almost without fail? Elite Dangerous!
(Lone echo sometimes pips it to the post)
Found another one knocking vr that clearly hasn't tried it!
Wait....so you're saying I don't have 1500+hrs in ED VR and about 100 or so in SkyrimVR/FalloutVR? Might want to keep "searching" next time
IF FD really don't want to put much work into vr for future content such as space legs I hope they at least throw in the option like from other suns. It offers a comfort mode that does the job and does not give any in-game advantage at all. (And full fat locomotion of course)
I think DB was spot on, for my 2 cents, VR is indeed a very niche market and needs a hell of a lot of improvement before it becomes little more than an interesting gimmick.
I mean vr is fun for half an hour or so, but if I actually want to play a game, it doesn't even come close to a good screen, especially with elite, there's just to many compromises that affect the fundamental playability of the game. As another forum member once said, "VR in Elite is like being there, only you've forgotten your glasses".
I mean vr is fun for half an hour or so, but if I actually want to play a game, it doesn't even come close to a good screen, especially with elite, there's just to many compromises that affect the fundamental playability of the game. As another forum member once said, "VR in Elite is like being there, only you've forgotten your glasses".
Space Legs VR, pah, since 2014 I'm only thinking about Atmospheric VR... hope it will come true one day!
The sky, clouds, birds, mountains, water, woods..etc.
EliteVR will rise and shine and maybe convince even the sceptical people here...
The sky, clouds, birds, mountains, water, woods..etc.
EliteVR will rise and shine and maybe convince even the sceptical people here...
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It's weird. Maybe I got a really good screen with my rift or something. But I don't do supersampling (I only have a gtx 980) but I can read ALL text in VR in ED and in the last 1500hrs all has been in VR. I wear glasses.. I an categorically state ED in VR is clearer than my vision without my contact lenses in. (Oculus rift DK2 and esp CV1)