The 15 second logout timer in action

Morbad

Morbad
M00ka said:
I've been following these topics in a kind of detached way since I have never been involved in PvP and have two questions:

(1) How prevalent is Combat Logging and using the 15 second timer, does it happen all the time, is it a rare thing?

(2) Who is being denied due to someone exiting the instance during a PvP encounter? Is it a weak trader just trying to save their ship from unwanted PvP from someone who is in a vastly superior ship or is it a fellow PvP'er that doesn't want to lose their over engineered death machine to someone with a better ship/more skill?
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1) Far from universal, but frequent enough that many people have come to expect it, which is highly disruptive to a wide variety of CMDR interactions. Once all encounters become optional in all situations, any encounter that shouldn't logically or plausibly require consent automatically devolves into an absurd caricature of what it should be.

As Lori pointed out earlier, there is a definite trend of CMDRs who should either be pooling resources to assist or oppose others, or who should rightly be hostile to each other, just ignoring or otherwise acting ambivalent, often because of the perception they will just log off or disconnect when opposed, whether they actually would or not.

Instead of interacting with real characters, it often feels like being surrounded by ghosts. Imagine a battle or crime in progress where the opposing forces (two armies, or the cops and robbers) are both pursuing their respective objectives, while pretending the other side doesn't exist. The cops come upon a robbery in progress at a bank. There are bystanders inside, but the cops don't try to help because they assume these innocents will just magically vanish into thin air to save themselves, if they haven't already. The cops don't directly attack the robbers because they assume they will just magically vanish into thin air to avoid arrest or death. The robbers might fire a few shots at the police, who may return fire, but this is either for show, or to delay each side from reaching the vault. Once they get to the vault, they find that the vault door can actually be open and closed simultaneously, that the robbers cannot be stopped from looting it, so the only counter option is to fill it back up faster than it can be ransacked.

Everyone can impose their own personal narrative over everyone else, and all side will have it right. No one can force a confrontation, except via the most abstract means, to test who would actually prevail or what events should have actually taken place. That's the sort of surrealistic stuff going on because of a variety of poor mechanisms and lax enforcement of current rules.

2) Anyone who desires to see some semblance of verisimilitude, have a bit of immersion, or values the integrity of the game's setting and whatever consequences should have been applied, is being denied when someone uses out of character means to exit a PvP encounter.

Sylveria said:
Relevant to this discussion, original reply is here.
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Logging off in the face of a dangerous situation isn't "flight when you can't fight" for the character, it's the player abandoning the game rather than seeing things through when they fear flight has become impossible for their character.

It's the equivalent of grabbing one's character sheet, getting up from the table, and refusing to play when one's character in a table-top RPG is about to face harm. The only real difference is that Elite's GM is a sucker and will let that player sit right back down and keep playing as soon as the situation has passed, where as any other GM in their right mind would tell the player to pack their crap, go home, and not come back.

My CMDR will do absolutely everything in his power to save his vessel from destruction or accomplish important in-game goals. The key here is in his power. He's a damned video game character; he doesn't know the ejection seat will always save him, he doesn't know the omniponent entity controlling his destiny from the real world can just use a menu or pull a cord...all he's got are the tools he's acquired in-game and the experience I can provide him.

Thus, my CMDR can be losing a proverbial fight for his life, and I will never consider using the menu timer or disconnecting, because neither of those options even exist from my CMDR's perspective.

As for cowards, people are entitled to play cowardly characters, but these issues have more to do with cowardly players who abuse the realities of the game's mechanisms to alter in-character events.

Asp Explorer said:
And just how are you going to deal with someone who logs you?
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Ideally, you report them, then Frontier looks at the same telemetry they should be looking at to enforce the prohibition against deliberately disconnecting, discovers a pattern, realizes who has done what, and bans the appropriate party.

It shouldn't look much different from a technical perspective if they disconnect you or themselves and punishing combat loggers would always require a look at trends.

Sylveria said:
I'm all for rules against combat logging, as long as rules against shooting unarmed vessels are established at the same time. Equal penalties for both parties.
Click to expand...

It's already illegal to shoot another player, armed or unarmed, in the overwhelming majority of jurisdictions in most circumstances, and the penalties for assault, attempted murder, or murder are far higher than those for violating the ToS of a video game.

I know real-world penalties aren't what you were referring to, but you are the one pushing a false equivalence for real world (a player killing a task, severing a connection, or abusing an option in a menu) and in game actions (one character firing on another).

In game rules are enforced by in-game entities. Real world rules by real-world entities.
 

Smaste

S
Morbad said:
1) Far from universal, but frequent enough that many people have come to expect it, which is highly disruptive to a wide variety of CMDR interactions. Once all encounters become optional in all situations, any encounter that shouldn't logically or plausibly require consent automatically devolves into an absurd caricature of what it should be.

As Lori pointed out earlier, there is a definite trend of CMDRs who should either be pooling resources to assist or oppose others, or who should rightly be hostile to each other, just ignoring or otherwise acting ambivalent, often because of the perception they will just log off or disconnect when opposed, whether they actually would or not.

Instead of interacting with real characters, it often feels like being surrounded by ghosts. Imagine a battle or crime in progress where the opposing forces (two armies, or the cops and robbers) are both pursuing their respective objectives, while pretending the other side doesn't exist. The cops come upon a robbery in progress at a bank. There are bystanders inside, but the cops don't try to help because they assume these innocents will just magically vanish into thin air to save themselves, if they haven't already. The cops don't directly attack the robbers because they assume they will just magically vanish into thin air to avoid arrest or death. The robbers might fire a few shots at the police, who may return fire, but this is either for show, or to delay each side from reaching the vault. Once they get to the vault, they find that the vault door can actually be open and closed simultaneously, that the robbers cannot be stopped from looting it, so the only counter option is to fill it back up faster than it can be ransacked.

Everyone can impose their own personal narrative over everyone else, and all side will have it right. No one can force a confrontation, except via the most abstract means, to test who would actually prevail or what events should have actually taken place. That's the sort of surrealistic stuff going on because of a variety of poor mechanisms and lax enforcement of current rules.

2) Anyone who desires to see some semblance of verisimilitude, have a bit of immersion, or values the integrity of the game's setting and whatever consequences should have been applied, is being denied when someone uses out of character means to exit a PvP encounter.



Logging off in the face of a dangerous situation isn't "flight when you can't fight" for the character, it's the player abandoning the game rather than seeing things through when they fear flight has become impossible for their character.

It's the equivalent of grabbing one's character sheet, getting up from the table, and refusing to play when one's character in a table-top RPG is about to face harm. The only real difference is that Elite's GM is a sucker and will let that player sit right back down and keep playing as soon as the situation has passed, where as any other GM in their right mind would tell the player to pack their crap, go home, and not come back.

My CMDR will do absolutely everything in his power to save his vessel from destruction or accomplish important in-game goals. The key here is in his power. He's a damned video game character; he doesn't know the ejection seat will always save him, he doesn't know the omniponent entity controlling his destiny from the real world can just use a menu or pull a cord...all he's got are the tools he's acquired in-game and the experience I can provide him.

Thus, my CMDR can be losing a proverbial fight for his life, and I will never consider using the menu timer or disconnecting, because neither of those options even exist from my CMDR's perspective.

As for cowards, people are entitled to play cowardly characters, but these issues have more to do with cowardly players who abuse the realities of the game's mechanisms to alter in-character events.



Ideally, you report them, then Frontier looks at the same telemetry they should be looking at to enforce the prohibition against deliberately disconnecting, discovers a pattern, realizes who has done what, and bans the appropriate party.

It shouldn't look much different from a technical perspective if they disconnect you or themselves and punishing combat loggers would always require a look at trends.



It's already illegal to shoot another player, armed or unarmed, in the overwhelming majority of jurisdictions in most circumstances, and the penalties for assault, attempted murder, or murder are far higher than those for violating the ToS of a video game.

I know real-world penalties aren't what you were referring to, but you are the one pushing a false equivalence for real world (a player killing a task, severing a connection, or abusing an option in a menu) and in game actions (one character firing on another).

In game rules are enforced by in-game entities. Real world rules by real-world entities.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you've been in this argument for a long time lol
 

Smaste

S
Ziggy Stardust said:
Same as:
- Yeah, I gank/grief loads of CMDRs, even in sidewinders. It's not against the rules, so bite me.
- The 15 second menu log out timer is no fair, I'm putting you on a meaningless KoS list!
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What if the gankers start griefing and combat logging

then everyone wins
 

Thepirateorc

Thepirateorc
Touch of Grey said:
I was reading this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/442697-Opinions-on-combat-logging and decided to try out the timer at the CG when sure enough, immediately griefed non-stop by wanted players who want me to be their content. Not wanting to spend 12M a pop on rebuys, I used the timer. It worked as advertised, normally followed up by "friend" requests that turned out to be anything but, and threats to send the video to something called "elite combat loggers" (that's like a shaming site i guess).

Why am I only finding out about this wonderful piece of kit now?
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Though menu logging through fdev eyes is ok, any form of logging is disliked by the pvp community. You call these cmdrs griefers but there are many reasons why they wanted to kill you. If someone menu logged on me when trying to pirate them, i would wait for them to return and kill them on site and class them as a clogger.
 

Smaste

S
Thepirateorc said:
Though menu logging through fdev eyes is ok, any form of logging is disliked by the pvp community. You call these cmdrs griefers but there are many reasons why they wanted to kill you. If someone menu logged on me when trying to pirate them, i would wait for them to return and kill them on site and class them as a clogger.
Click to expand...
praites asde bas peolsp whio wna rto takde frfm the porr and gived tu the 1%

ban them now
 

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
Here's my idea.

Increase the menu logging timer to 30 seconds if under fire. 15 if just in a dangerous place (like guardian sites, although I fail to see any danger here... Lol).
Fix the menu so you can confirm you want to quit, and when the timer is up, the game exits, with an option to cancel.

Then if real life calls, you just quit and run, and the game will sort itself out.
Everyone knows the postman won't wait 3 seconds, let alone 30~ for you to click confirm and then answer the door.

If you ungracefully exit the game (during combat), you can only rejoin your previous mode and exact private group for a limited time, all other modes are locked for say, 30 minutes after you rejoin your previous mode.
Doesn't really punish anyone, just discourages clogging to escape death.

Yay? Nay?

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 

kaivalagi

kaivalagi
I'd propose a different strategy on the timer:


  • Shorten the timer to 10 seconds
  • Reset the timer to 10 seconds countdown if the ship takes damage
  • If not damaged within the last 10 seconds you can exit the game immediately

So if you evade your attacker for long enough you can exit, if not then suck it up
 

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
kaivalagi said:
I'd propose a different strategy on the timer:


  • Shorten the timer to 10 seconds
  • Reset the timer to 10 seconds countdown if the ship takes damage
  • If not damaged within the last 10 seconds you can exit the game immediately

So if you evade your attacker for long enough you can exit, if not then suck it up
Click to expand...

But then how do you leave the game if you need to say, answer the door, Or go to work, If you're under attack?

Being held hostage by a game is silly, and will simply cause more people to pull the plug.
 

Smaste

S
CMDR_Cosmicspacehead said:
But then how do you leave the game if you need to say, answer the door, Or go to work, If you're under attack?

Being held hostage by a game is silly, and will simply cause more people to pull the plug.
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1) The door can wait, if it can't then it's more important than the game.
2) GO TO WORK it's more important than the game.

Or the 3rd alternative, the elusive yet always viable... give yourself enough time to leave the game. Return to a station with a good half hour to go, get ready.

I'm glad you didn't throw out the excuse of "What if my child was about to put their finger in a plug socket!!" cause I could have said "If you're more worried about your ingame credits than your child you need to re-evaluate your priorities."

By the way, it's actually faster to high-wake out of a system after submitting to an interdiction than it is to menu log.

Thanks PvPers for giving us endless tactics to escape from combat.
 

GreenViper

GreenViper
Sylveria said:
Then do it there, hot stuff. Show us what you've got, instead of clearly being jealous of the accomplishments of others.

I'll definitely give you cred and respect when you do so.

I'm quite serious. I'll even post a VERY public statement to the fact in Dangerous Discussion- right at the top, commending you for your efforts!

Get that PvP community ORGANIZED, get them to reach the group limits at least twice- make a statement to Frontier!

Let them know just how many players are interested in your opinion of what PvP should be in this game.

Because that's exactly what MOBIUS did in regard to the PvE community in a sheer statement of how much a cooperative PvE mode really is needed.

Don't just talk about it... do it.
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+1, Try and prove it’s that easy... .bet ya you won’t make it....
 

Deleted member 182079

D
Intrigued (and a bit bored) last night I googled that infamous Elite combat loggers reddit, and came across this thread of beauty:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteCombatLoggers/comments/7tmbzj/cmdr_agony_aunt_combat_logger/

I was a bit taken aback by the viciousness of some of the posters there, especially in light of the 'accused' admitting it wasn't their finest hour while giving (imo) legitimate reasons for why they did it.

I also noticed one of the more persistent posters being a relatively known (by E: D standards anyways) Youtuber, which up until now I thought was a reasonable chap as I watched some of his admittedly pretty decent videos, and some recent collaboration streams with ObsidianAnt, Yamiks and D2EA. Lost all respect for him now though, terrible behaviour as he kept attacking/abusing the menu logger including personal insults to him and his family.

Grown up people, acting like that over a computer game. Absolutely pathetic.

It's moments like this when I'm thinking, why do I even log in to Open everytime when these are the people I'm going to face, until I remind myself I also met quite a few really pleasant people there also, and I don't want to miss that. Shame though some feel the need to behave like that. Some perspective really wouldn't go amiss there.
 
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