Opinions on combat logging

[znôrt]

Data manipulation is quite tricky you know...
2.8% of players... all players. Not players doing missions, just all players.

nope. will (iirc) clarified later it was 2.8% of players who had contact with the mission board, and that it was a daily average.

he did not show the exact measurement or computation, but the basic problem with this measure is that board flipping is something done occasionally, in grinding stints. meaning people are not flipping all the time, but the number of people who have flipped at some point could be a considerably larger portion of the players. frontier didn't say anything about that either, nor about what timeframe that figure represents.

which doesn't preclude the 2.8% figure from being used by all kinds of 'i told you so' grunts since, for whatever reason, and becoming a local meme. i do a 2.8% joke on daily average.

 

[Siobhan]

Lore wise, probably licensing, patents, and IP that are generally enforced by multi-national entities, like the Pilots Federation and Bank of Zaonce.

Gameplay wise, lack of any significant salvage mechanism.

You mean it's not against the letter of the law so you'll use any excuse?

 

[Sylveria]

nope. will (iirc) clarified later it was 2.8% of players who had contact with the mission board, and that it was a daily average.

he did not show the exact measurement or computation, but the basic problem with this measure is that board flipping is something done occasionally, in grinding stints. meaning people are not flipping all the time, but the number of people who have flipped at some point could be a considerably larger portion of the players. frontier didn't say anything about that either, nor about what timeframe that figure represents.

which doesn't preclude the 2.8% figure from being used by all kinds of 'i told you so' grunts since, for whatever reason, and becoming a local meme. i do a 2.8% joke on daily average.

I only read 2.8% of this reply.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

So why do you still need to sign up to $faction to get them?

To increase "perceived value," and that way the faction benefits.

 

[Siobhan]

To increase "perceived value," and that way the faction benefits.

And this is less cheating than menu logging? Not alt-f4 logging of course

 

[jasonbarron]

And this is less cheating than menu logging? Not alt-f4 logging of course

What's being cheated here is my brain from reading this drivel.

 

[znôrt]

And this is less cheating than menu logging?

i'd rather like faction weapons were exclusive and only used 'in service' too, but otherwise i can hardly consider it cheating when players use several of them since the game allows it. it means players cheat not the game but the factions, which are essentially (and lorewise) organized cheating groups anyway. i do same thing to all major factions / most minor factions aswell: get what i want from them and then show them the finger.

 

[Siobhan]

i'd rather like faction weapons were exclusive and only used 'in service' too, but otherwise i can hardly consider it cheating when players use several of them since the game allows it. it means players cheat not the game but the factions, which are essentially (and lorewise) organized cheating groups anyway. i do same thing to all major factions / most minor factions aswell: get what i want from them and then show them the finger.

That's what I'm saying though, the game allows it but it's against the RPG.
With combat logging, the menu is allowed but its against the RPG.
It's the same

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

And this is less cheating than menu logging? Not alt-f4 logging of course

I don't think it's cheating at all, nor "unsportsmanlike".

Menu logging is unsportsmanlike.

 

[Siobhan]

I don't think it's cheating at all, nor "unsportsmanlike".

Menu logging is unsportsmanlike.

No more so than using weapons you shouldn't be entitled to

But you do you.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

That's what I'm saying though, the game allows it but it's against the RPG.
With combat logging, the menu is allowed but its against the RPG.
It's the same

I don't agree.
You lose the ability to buy new ones but not to have them replaced.

No more so than using weapons you shouldn't be entitled to

But you do you.

I am entitled to them.
I pledged and fulfilled the requirements.
Nowhere in my contract did it say I was required to remain pledged, nor did it so much as imply they would magically become un-insurable/claimable once I leave.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Are we seriously treading the path of "any gameplay I don't like from a role play perspective is a form of cheating"?

Seriously?

 

[Siobhan]

I don't agree.
You lose the ability to buy new ones but not to have them replaced.

Replacements are the same as buying new.

Another view... There's an absolute minimum time on gaining such exploit weapons.
I think it's 4 weeks each, so to get 2 types is a minimum of 8 weeks (unless I am wrong)
Any weapon fire then on a player less than 8 weeks old is an advantage they could never match and should mean a ban...

It's no more than people ask for against loggers after all, a en without proof.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Are we seriously treading the path of "any gameplay I don't like from a role play perspective is now a form of cheating"?

Seriously?

Wine induced.

 

[Siobhan]

Wine induced.

No,

It's not a cheat especially.
After all the rules allow it... Isn't anything the rules allow ok?
Or is logging a special case? Is one exploit more cheating than another?
Both are allowed by the rules but only one gets you victimised and put on "lists"

 

[Devari]

I don't think it's cheating at all, nor "unsportsmanlike".

Menu logging is unsportsmanlike.

Griefing a nearly defenseless player who can't properly fight back is even more unsportsmanlike. They are being engaged in a contest that they can't possibly win and can only escape from, so they simply choose the most expedient option to escape which often happens to be a menu log. How is that difficult for PVP players to understand? The griefing behavior that many PVP player engage in is the root cause of the menu logging behavior. If you stop griefing players then you won't need to deal with frequent menu logging, unless of course it's a PVP player menu logging on another PVP player which would actually be rather ironic. Stating that an Anaconda menu logged means nothing, if they are not equipped for PVP then it isn't a fight they have a remotely reasonable chance of winning and they will chose to leave that combat as quickly as possible.

What's even worse than the griefing behavior itself that the C&P rework in Beyond that was supposed to provide meaningful consequences for killing other players yet has done nothing to reduce griefing behavior at all. In fact it's actually made it worse as players can simply change ships or clear bounties outright using the massive credit balances many of them have already accumulated. It's difficult to blame defenseless players for escaping combat with a menu logout when the root cause for why players choose to do this remains completely unaddressed by FD. Since FD clearly has no intention of designing a proper C&P system at this point perhaps PVP players should argue for FD to start there if they want to see menu logging behavior change?

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

No,

It's not a cheat especially.
After all the rules allow it... Isn't anything the rules allow ok?
Or is logging a special case? Is one exploit more cheating than another?
Both are allowed by the rules but only one gets you victimised and put on "lists"

Im of the opinion that if the rules allow it it's okay. Some things- like menu logging to escape a negative consequence- are cheesing the game a bit but not cheating.

But seriously, if you're going to start basing your objections on RP realism, Elite isn't the game for you.

 

[Morbad]

You mean it's not against the letter of the law so you'll use any excuse?

My CMDR doesn't have any PP weapons at all because he's never been pledged to any PP power, ever. He's not comfortable with even the minimal commitment they require.

However, as a player I don't see anything that particularly requires any 'excuse', for exactly the same reasons I don't believe Iranian F-14s are against the laws of physics...

And this is less cheating than menu logging?

It's neither cheating, nor immersion breaking, nor implausible, nor lacking in countless real-world precedents.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Griefing a nearly defenseless player who can't properly fight back is even more unsportsmanlike. They are being engaged in a contest that they can't possibly win and can only escape from, so they simply choose the most expedient option to escape which often happens to be a menu log. How is that difficult for PVP players to understand? The griefing behavior that many PVP player engage in is the root cause of the menu logging behavior. If you stop griefing players then you won't need to deal with frequent menu logging, unless of course it's a PVP player menu logging on another PVP player which would actually be rather ironic. Stating that an Anaconda menu logged means nothing, if they are not equipped for PVP then it isn't a fight they have a remotely reasonable chance of winning and they will chose to leave that combat as quickly as possible.

What's even worse than the griefing behavior itself that the C&P rework in Beyond that was supposed to provide meaningful consequences for killing other players yet has done nothing to reduce griefing behavior at all. In fact it's actually made it worse as players can simply change ships or clear bounties outright using the massive credit balances many of them have already accumulated. It's difficult to blame defenseless players for escaping combat with a menu logout when the root cause for why players choose to do this remains completely unaddressed by FD. Since FD clearly has no intention of designing a proper C&P system at this point perhaps PVP players should argue for FD to start there if they want to see menu logging behavior change?

You should try Brazilian JiuJitsu, even for a few months.
You will generally spend the first year not even being able to escape!
That's how you learn.

"Tapping out" is conceding death.
So you die, over, and over, and over, and over...

No,

It's not a cheat especially.
After all the rules allow it... Isn't anything the rules allow ok?
Or is logging a special case? Is one exploit more cheating than another?
Both are allowed by the rules but only one gets you victimised and put on "lists"

My Cmdr doesn't have a logout button in his spaceship.

 

[Devari]

Any weapon fire then on a player less than 8 weeks old is an advantage they could never match and should mean a ban...

That's not how online games with open-world progression work. Unless you're in a "safe" area a game does not set up some sort of fair "duel" system between players unless there were some sort of PVP queue and ELO system to rank the players with. The game will never be designed to determine if my Corvette is a "fair" fight against an Anaconda because we have no proper system to determine that. In many cases a Corvette would have a significant advantage here since players will often encounter another player flying an Anaconda designed for trading or exploration. However you could easily Engineer a PVP Anaconda that could at put up a decent fight against a Corvette and the game can't reasonably calculate that in any meaningful way. Even if the game did assign some sort of "modifier" for bounties the C&P system still has basically no consequences for griefing and players would continue doing it regardless.

The best that they could do at this point is assign a C&P "modifier" where attacking a player with a certain combat rank difference will immediately send ATR ships against you regardless of notoriety, i.e., a CMDR with a Dangerous rank who is seal-clubbing Harmless Sidewinders will be treated differently than if they were attacking Master Type 9's. Even that would have a significant impact on the game, i.e., it would remove a some of the risk for players early in the game and many PVE players would actually be at a disadvantage by not needing to learn proper escape or evasion techniques early on in the game where the rebuys are generally minimal. Unless there is a proper C&P system to base this on, however, the game is basically in the same situation where the PVP players doing the griefing will just ignore any of the minimal "consequences" that currently exist in the game.