Outfits and jump range

[jonnymind]

I think hyperspace jump range versus ship outfit requries a review.

Even a light equipment on a ship that has a moderately good jump range, as the Viper or the Cobra, will end up in confing the ship in very limited space. If you want to gear yourself up, you'll end up closing yourself in the system you've been doing the gearing up.

I can understand that a short-ranged fighter as the Eagle might be limited to the starsystem where it is "born", but I fail to see how the game should be interesting if, after gearing me up for fight, I can just visit a couple of starsystems.

If gear would be easily findable, it could even be doable to sell your ship, get a long range explorer and rebuy your ship at destination (althought it would feel a bit strange); or, if we had the ability to use more ships, we could use a long-range exporer to reach one area, then reach a base and switch for a short-range fighter to complete fight missions.

I honestly fail to see how punishing the players that are gearing up their ships by confining them in small areas (or even single star-systems) in a game whose heart is the exploration of new worlds, is making the game interesting.

I agree that it is interesting to study new, more complex routes to get to your destination, when you fill up your cargo or when you make your ship heavier. The fact of having to do more jumps, spending more fuel, visiting more stardocks to refuel is TOTALLY ok. Also, having to refuel more makes the travel more risky, and I think that's what the jump scaling on ship weight should be all about.

But, closing the player in a limited region of space, or on a single star system... no, sorry, I am seriously thinking that is design flaw. And, in a game based on esploration, a FATAL design flaw indeed. It ends up you can't even gear yourself up to go hunt for pirates, as after gearing yourself up, you can't even reach the systems you wanted to hunt anymore!

Last but not least, I remember that, since Elite on Commodore 64, the jump range of a Cobra MK3 was 8 LY, but it didn't suffer any jump range renstriction based on the gear or cargo it had. The average distance between the star systems on the galaxy map didn't vary since then, but the actual playable ship jump range is now greatly reduced, to the point that you must disarm your ship (unless it's a long range transport or an Anaconda) to go ANYWHERE.

The way the map is structured now, jump ranges should be doubled, maybe increasing the penalty for cargo/gear weight, so that you could go anywhere you wanted, but if you get weight you'd be then forced to study more complex -- and dangerous routes to get where you want, without being prevented altogether to get ANYWHERE.

 

[Incandescence]

Beta is beta

Can you imagine my reaction when i first fully equipped my viper with C4 tech, armor/etc?

i was sure the 4LY jump range is a bug.
yet it wasnt, the game is beta.
pretty much everything will change in a few updates, tweaks and fixes will follow.

 

[MarineCHF]

I agree with OP. I'm in my sidewinder right now kind of stuck. Their are systems that I want to go to but my ship just won't reach. I hope there will be upgrades for the ships to extend the jump range. I love my sidewinder and don't want to give it up, but I also want to explore. What I'm trying to say is I want my cake and want to eat it too.

 

[jonnymind]

Well, I don't know your, but mine was "ok, time to ask for the refund".

Yeah, beta is beta, but if no one is raising any voice about this fatal design flaw, no-one is going to fix it.

 

[Zvanya]

Well, I don't know your, but mine was "ok, time to ask for the refund".

Yeah, beta is beta, but if no one is raising any voice about this fatal design flaw, no-one is going to fix it.

You're right I should be raising my voice and posturing too because I think the Viper should have more range and obviously nothing will be changed or tweeked between now and release. Refund NOW.

 

[jonnymind]

You're right I should be raising my voice and posturing too because I think the Viper should have more range and obviously nothing will be changed or tweeked between now and release. Refund NOW.

No need to be sarcastic, man. Spending hours to build up something and seeing that vanish because of not just a bug, but a clear misthinking (design flaw) that couldn't go unseen before than now, is no fun. Not a fun you want to pay 60E, anyhow.

I passed over the tons of crashes, accidental hits of AB in the docks, AI ramming right into you (they have nothing to lose), over losing more tha 10 bounty tickets over disconnections etc. But THIS was the thing that made me really, really think "ok, if that what's they think this game should be, I want my mone back". -- think I said. Not ask. Not before I really know it's what they really think this game should be.

Was it F2P, I wouldn't be "posturing". But since I paid to be distressed, I want my distress to be listened to -- posturing, if necessary. Seems unfair? -- strange, I've been tought that a paying customer is always right.

Sorry, man. Since I paid, I have all the right of be "posturing". That's how the business world work. And that's the little satisfaction you gain when you pay. At least that, just that in life. You pay, you get a service, and not a distress.

Now, go to tell not to be posturing to some 16 year old kid who got the money from their parents. I sweated every ounce of it, and I have the fking right to be posturing as much as I want.

Sorry to be blunt. But I cannot stand who think he's smart.

 

[Dirtmuncher]

Sometimes there are trade offs.. It might be that the engine upgrades that give longer jump range are still incoming. Crying refund because something doesn't work as you expected it to work might not mean a clear design flaw but wrong expectations on your side.
You bought a beta product, it might be good to set your expectations accordingly.
The crashes and disconnects could be related to issues outsisebof the control of frontier developments. You might be right but have you checked that your own gear is in order?

And if you want a refund then go get a refund. No one is stopping you.
But if you want to give constructive feedback you might want to change the way you do it.
Because at the moment you come across as a whiney brad thats throwing a temper tantrum. And makes me take you and the points you want to make not so serious.

P.s.
The customer is usually wrong.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

I think we will see adjustments to jump ranges, sure , but i dont think that anyone should expect that a Viper for example, fully kitted out, will have any significant range.
I believe that FD in their design of the ships and their intended role have taken this in consideration with due care.
It would be totally unbelieveable to see a heavily armed light interceptor like the Viper, roam through the starsystems !
Try and compare the ships with WWII aircraft, there there were tradeoffs and compromises too.
Anyhow even today fighter/interceptors are starkly limited in range.

Anyhow, the implemented system is good imo, that it forces the player to think! , especially when it comes to advance planning whether it be missions, piracy or trade.

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Zvanya]

No need to be sarcastic, man.

I thought sarcasm was called for because in my opinion your position is ridiculous. You're making a fuss out of something that I think will probably be addressed in some way before release. And even if it's not, calling it a "major design flaw" is a little silly.

Yes indeed it's your right to posture and threaten over something like this - have at it Hoss, and it's my right to be scornful of such an attitude.

I think hyperspace jump range versus ship outfit requries a review.

This was fine and a lot of what followed I agree with, I only became sarcastic when you started talking refund.

EDIT: I am a sarcastic SOB - stipulated.

 

[ScottGust]

No need to be sarcastic, man. Spending hours to build up something and seeing that vanish because of not just a bug, but a clear misthinking (design flaw) that couldn't go unseen before than now, is no fun. Not a fun you want to pay 60E, anyhow.

I passed over the tons of crashes, accidental hits of AB in the docks, AI ramming right into you (they have nothing to lose), over losing more tha 10 bounty tickets over disconnections etc. But THIS was the thing that made me really, really think "ok, if that what's they think this game should be, I want my mone back". -- think I said. Not ask. Not before I really know it's what they really think this game should be.

Was it F2P, I wouldn't be "posturing". But since I paid to be distressed, I want my distress to be listened to -- posturing, if necessary. Seems unfair? -- strange, I've been tought that a paying customer is always right.

Sorry, man. Since I paid, I have all the right of be "posturing". That's how the business world work. And that's the little satisfaction you gain when you pay. At least that, just that in life. You pay, you get a service, and not a distress.

Now, go to tell not to be posturing to some 16 year old kid who got the money from their parents. I sweated every ounce of it, and I have the fking right to be posturing as much as I want.

Sorry to be blunt. But I cannot stand who think he's smart.

If you have ur refund could you please leave now, ur novel length posts are distracting me from the backers legitimate posts..and cussing gets u banned here, hopefully faster than ur nxt novel.

 

[Commander Debic]

I think hyperspace jump range versus ship outfit requries a review.

Even a light equipment on a ship that has a moderately good jump range, as the Viper or the Cobra, will end up in confing the ship in very limited space. If you want to gear yourself up, you'll end up closing yourself in the system you've been doing the gearing up.

I can understand that a short-ranged fighter as the Eagle might be limited to the starsystem where it is "born", but I fail to see how the game should be interesting if, after gearing me up for fight, I can just visit a couple of starsystems.

If gear would be easily findable, it could even be doable to sell your ship, get a long range explorer and rebuy your ship at destination (althought it would feel a bit strange); or, if we had the ability to use more ships, we could use a long-range exporer to reach one area, then reach a base and switch for a short-range fighter to complete fight missions.

I honestly fail to see how punishing the players that are gearing up their ships by confining them in small areas (or even single star-systems) in a game whose heart is the exploration of new worlds, is making the game interesting.

I agree that it is interesting to study new, more complex routes to get to your destination, when you fill up your cargo or when you make your ship heavier. The fact of having to do more jumps, spending more fuel, visiting more stardocks to refuel is TOTALLY ok. Also, having to refuel more makes the travel more risky, and I think that's what the jump scaling on ship weight should be all about.

But, closing the player in a limited region of space, or on a single star system... no, sorry, I am seriously thinking that is design flaw. And, in a game based on esploration, a FATAL design flaw indeed. It ends up you can't even gear yourself up to go hunt for pirates, as after gearing yourself up, you can't even reach the systems you wanted to hunt anymore!

Last but not least, I remember that, since Elite on Commodore 64, the jump range of a Cobra MK3 was 8 LY, but it didn't suffer any jump range renstriction based on the gear or cargo it had. The average distance between the star systems on the galaxy map didn't vary since then, but the actual playable ship jump range is now greatly reduced, to the point that you must disarm your ship (unless it's a long range transport or an Anaconda) to go ANYWHERE.

The way the map is structured now, jump ranges should be doubled, maybe increasing the penalty for cargo/gear weight, so that you could go anywhere you wanted, but if you get weight you'd be then forced to study more complex -- and dangerous routes to get where you want, without being prevented altogether to get ANYWHERE.

You are aware that fuel scoops are being introduced in the final game release, or before yes? This will allow you to plan visits to stars and gas giants on your way to somewhere else.

No matter you like itchy titchy space ships they are meant to accompany larger ships on distance runs in reality and would be carried by larger ships, and released to do local info gathering. I mean you want to go exploring you would need to get an exploration style ship not an itty bitty short range fighter.

As others have said wait and see what the release brings. this is only beta.

 

[jonnymind]

Sometimes there are trade offs.. It might be that the engine upgrades that give longer jump range are still incoming.

Yes, that would definitely save the day-

Crying refund because something doesn't work as you expected it to work might not mean a clear design flaw but wrong expectations on your side.

Don't strawman me. I never cried refund. I stated I did think it, and what made me to think it is what I consider to be a fatal design flaw, which cannot have gone unnoticed up to date.

Being unable to jump away from the system you fully geared up any one of the combat ships currently available in the game -- the fact of being able to jump to other systems, and possibly traverse them all, being the heart of this game -- doesn't seem a secondary "beta" problem to me. It's a design flaw that yells for vengeance.

You bought a beta product, it might be good to set your expectations accordingly.
The crashes and disconnects could be related to issues outsisebof the control of frontier developments. You might be right but have you checked that your own gear is in order?

I am a developer. And no, it's not outside their control (a disconnection CANNOT hang/crash a relatively well-made network-based software), and YES my gear is in order.

I bought a *beta* product, and my expectations are accordingly set: a beta should be a good representative of the final product, apart from some secondary non-vital features and possible bug fixes that the developer wasn't able to detect in a non-production environment, for how hard they tried. Introducing game-changing features is unexpected (and in my best knowledge unheard of) in open, official betas.

And if you want a refund then go get a refund. No one is stopping you.
But if you want to give constructive feedback you might want to change the way you do it.

At this point, I doubt you even bothered to read the OP. There *is* a constructive feedback, including some advises on how to fix the problem.

Because at the moment you come across as a whiney brad thats throwing a temper tantrum. And makes me take you and the points you want to make not so serious.

I am sorry, the one that started the unneeded sarcasm here, with evident derogatory intent, is you. Also, I added the notice about how much frustrated I was about this problem (to the point of thinking dropping the game) after a similar comment from another user; ny original post is free of any emotional response and contains constructive feedback only, and you're the one that is derailing the discussion about this topic (that I think is a "game stopper" in any sense of the word), for a purpose that I am failing to grasp.

P.s.
The customer is usually wrong.

And the business that treat their customers like that go broke soon. 4% of the unsatisfied customers ONLY will get back to you with a complain (rule 10), and it will be the 100% of the customers you'll be able to retain, provided you handle their complain right.

 

[metatheurgist]

Vipers are short range heavy fighters. Eagles are supposed to be long range (that needs to be fixed). In the original lore Vipers didn't even have jump capability, that's why they're local police ships.

You pick the right ship for the role. When I got my Viper I didn't buy C4 weapons or a hull upgrade because I wanted to play it as a short range courier and it was fine. Maybe the problem is if the game allows players to make a no-range heavy fighter, they should produce more missions that make that role worth playing.

But don't say the game is broke 'cos you brought a dog to a horseshow.

 

[Jenner]

The personal back and forth flaming has to stop in this thread, guys. If not then warnings will be issued and this thread may well be closed.

 

[Gwyvern]

ive been trying to push this idea for a while now

 

[Antonius]

Perhaps the advantage in having a number of good hard points and utility mounts is in the variety of load outs that can be constructed, rather than in just fitting the most and biggest guns available.

Design for a given purpose rather than a single catch all, brute force, 'maxed' kit. Seems a little more in keeping with the nature of the game to me. Anyway, much will be adjusted in the coming months and there are the new ships to be added. What may appear as a 'flaw' in the beta may seem less so as the game evolves and grows.

Personally I find the Viper to be a very capable craft even when not carrying too much weight.

 

[jonnymind]

But don't say the game is broke 'cos you brought a dog to a horseshow.

I would like not to be forced to say that. The problem is that the game is a horseshow, but you are given dogs only to bring there.

In other words, my problem is that there isn't an option for a fighter being able to traverse the universe (or even leave the system where it was created); and I can't see why it should be so.

As I stated in the OP, it is absolutely fine that a heavier ship should not be able to do long range jumps. Being forced to visit more systems, and so, running into more troubles, seems an absolutely fair trade off for a "short range" vessel.

Being closed in 2 systems, or even 1, especially when all the bounty missions that require an heavy fighter setup are 6 to 10 LY away, *is* a design flaw. It is clearly not intended to be so, yet it turns out to be the case.

I really can't see why the mechanics of the game should prevent a player from reaching any point of the galaxy with a certain setup. I approve the fact that getting there might be more troublesome, but being absolutely cut off, or segregated -- and not just as a ship, but as a player -- defeats the purpose of this game atlogether.

Also, it seems an unintended flaw, as the range of the jumps in Elite 1.0 was FIXED at exactly 8LY, and the mean distance between the systems was the same as now. Now ranges are shorter for any non-barebone fighter ship (Cobra included), but the distances between the systems are the same. Result: mount a laser or an armor and you're segregated in a couple of systems.

I proposed several workarounds:

* Redefine the jump sizes so that a full loaded fighter (with empty cargo) will still let you to jump across the largest distance bertween the nearest stars. I.e. if the maximum distance between two adjacent stars in the map (at least in the inhabited zone) is 6 LY, a fully configured ship (with empty cargo) should be able to jump 6.1 LY.

* If we're given the ability to switch ships, then the problem solves itself; just go there with your long range explorer, then switch to your short-range fighter.

* Improved engines could provide more jump range.

* Consumable 1-time devices could boost the jump range just for once, so that you can pass into other areas of the map for a toll (possibly, a lesser one with respect to the bounty sizes).

As the thing stands now, the mechanics renders the ability to equip a fighter ship quite useless, as the systems where you can equip them are the least interesting for a heavy fighter to be in (stable, high-tech).

 

[PunyHuman]

Based on previous experiences with predecessor games to ED, hyperspace jump range is a function of the class of hyperdrive and the mass of the ship.

So, in the old days, an empty ship has a base tonnage which includes essential systems, you add the mass of the hyperdrive, and the remaining tonnage is your cargo space and space for weapons. So, for maximum range, you'll need a stripped down ship... same for maximum cargo capacity.

Now, in Elite: Dangerous, you have a fixed cargo capacity, and there are slots for weapons that support a certain tonnage each, hence Class 2, Class 4, Class 6, etc. Currently, you can't reclaim space from your weapon emplacements as cargo capacity, but that may be a future capability.

Refering to past versions of the game, if for ED they continue with that previous design idea in mind, it may be possible to upgrade your Viper's Class-1 hyperdrive to a Class-2 at the cost or your cargo capacity. I really hope they do this, because it means you could configure for yourself an unarmed, long-range, version of a Viper that you use exclusively for high speed courier missions. That's just an example... the possibilities are really quite amazing. Consider sticking a Class-4 hyperdrive into the cavernous interior of a Lakon-9! You may not have much cargo space left, but you could jump an enormous distance! It would also be possible to have ships with no hyperdrive at all, which would be fairly useless in beta, but in a system with multiple trading stations, you could just super-cruise back and forth for small profit trades.

I really hope they go that route -- I like the idea of every ship being a balancing act between jump range, cargo, and armament.

 

[Tempered]

Read up on the design documents, wait a couple of updates, voice your opinion, but don't get all bent out of shape due to balance issues this early in the game. Really, it is only a balance issue, like tweaking the damage and range of weapons. These things change all the time, right up until release, and often even after release. Being a developer yourself, you should know that.

I'll let you in on a little secret. You can get to any system in the current bubble with a viper that is ready for combat. Load up 4 class 2 cannons, leave the heavy armor behind, that's all you need to succeed in a viper.

 

[desposa]

Could everyone just calm down?
Yes it's beta, yes we all get fustrated at some point.
As for the jump ranges it is known to the designers and will be looked at. At the moment the only thing you can so is balance equipment to range.
For example I would love heavier guns on my cobra but I stayed at the C1-C2 range just to have the maximum range that was allowed. Now that doesn't mean that you should do the same, maybe your game play is different than mine. Just play around with the equipment, since it's beta.

Oh and another thing, if you do decide to play around with equipment, after setting up, exit to the menu and back because sometimes the ranges in the galaxy map don't show properly, yes it's a bug