Honest question for pirates everywhere

[kenwshmt]

The small amount of Pirating I've done so far...

I threaten them... Take a few shots at them...

They drop some cargo... I let them leave.

If they don't drop some cargo... I attack them and get their hull down to about 10% and then let them leave.


Killing them wouldn't be the honourable thing.

to evoke 'tything' I may drop something to get way, but if you get up my ass, you get all the missles.

It wont be a full frontal assault, its a freighter, the hell im gonna charge and attack, any damage you get is by following and taking damage.


-----
If you guys preface with 'this is a robbery, you will not die'.. and maybe we talk.

LA story, 1991. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102250/quotes

" Crook: Hi. My name is Bob. I'll be your robber.

Harris: [hands him the money] Hi, how are you?

Crook: Thank you very much. "

 

[Zenicetus]

A sensible pirate will not kill people for the heck of it in anarchy systems either, because that will stop traders from routing through if it is too dangerous. On the other hand though, a sensible pirate will still kill when a target does not comply or resists otherwise what incentive does a target have to comply? It's catch 22. To apply a code of conduct to scallywags is oxymoronic.

Okay, let's talk about this "complying with demands" part. Here's a scenario, and again I'm not speaking personally as a pure trader because I don't plan on playing the game that way. I'm just trying to see it from the other side:

I'm flying a fat trader ship. You're a pirate, and you knock me out of SC to normal space to grab my cargo. I'm wearing the Rift and/or using a HOTAS with my keyboard pushed away, so I don't have an easy way to communicate via text. So whether you're issuing a "Stand and Deliver" or not is irrelevant. I just quickly select two random cans from my cargo -- and not necessarily my prize cargo, either -- and I eject those two cans. Then i quickly boost away, FA Off, and try to enter SC again.

What's your next action? Will that be enough, or will you chase me and blast me out of the sky because I didn't drop all my cargo, or stop to listen to your exact demands? And if you do kill me, why wouldn't I then put you on my Ignore list? And maybe even tell my trader friends, so they can Ignore you too? Again, that's from a "typical trader" perspective and not how I would personally act in the game.

I think this mentality that everyone should be "safe" is . Braben and co refer to griefing, but in terms that are pretty clear. Griefing is not PKing. It's a continued campaign of harassment of a player or an area. Yes they want to encourage co-operative play and discourage player on player violence, but have they ever said they don't want ANY violent player interaction at all? I haven't seen that. They are introducing mechanics to discourage particular actions, but if they wanted to eradicate it completely they could simply make it impossible to kill another player at all. They haven't and they won't. Because there needs to be risk inherent in all the roles within the game, otherwise the rewards are pretty worthless.

I worry however that people will start issuing "blacklists" of pirates for other traders which will see these people, who are legitimately playing the game, ignored out of any player interaction at all. That is not fair on the pirates. Not by a long shot.

I'll say it once again, attacking another player will be rare, but it shouldn't be manipulated out of the game completely otherwise what point is there to playing when there is no risk?

I agree with everything you posted there. I'm just trying to understand why players who take up the profession of trading or mining will cooperate exactly the way pirates want them to, in every conceivable situation. The game designers will have to find some middle ground where trading is Dangerous, but the pirates don't have all the advantages and fun in the game.

Maybe the bounty system FD is planning will take care of this, I dunno. If the bounty system doesn't, then the Ignore list will have to take care of it. And the pirates will only have NPC ships to loot. I hope that doesn't happen.

 

[Commander Debic]

.

or when people run (you can take out the drives)

Don't ruin someones day just because you can.

Doesn't taking out the drives though with present mechanics basically mean that player may as well have been killed. If they have been interdicted a long way out from a station, and have no frame shift power to continue their journey anyway, as it has been destroyed, so ship and remaining cargo are worthless if it is going to take weeks or months of real time to get to the nearest (Light seconds away) station. Unless of course the distress call can include a ship that can carry out emergency drive repairs to get you home.

Gives me an idea that. How about a player controlled ship breakdown service. They can like charge 10% of a ships remaining cargo plus 10% value of ship to refuel or/and repair the customers ship to get them home. The customer could be a trader left alive and damaged or a pirate who bit off more than they could chew.

A good trade for players to add to the many things you will be able to do in ED.

 

[Stoopyface]

Zenicetus, in the scenario you describe, I'd probably fire at you once more and type 'more'.

In your scenario, you can't say that being killed would be surprising though. When you're interdicted you have a lot of choices, but your ultimate goal is to escape. If you don't escape then you will lose everything; if you die then you lose the ship insurance cost, any cargo and any bounty vouchers (in future releases you will also lose rep).

So the only other consideration is how much you are willing to risk in order to facilitate that escape. On one end of the risk spectrum you could self destruct and on the other end you could drop all of your cargo. Self destructing ensures you will not escape and dropping all your cargo all but guarantees that you will escape.

In fact I'll chart out a little risk spectrum here:

Guaranteed death.
1. Self destruct.
2. Fight.
3. Run and ignore hails.
4. Run and respond to hails.
5. Drop small amount of cargo/lowest value cargo.
6. Drop moderate amount of cargo/medium value cargo.
7. Drop high amount of cargo/high value cargo.
8. Drop all your cargo.
Almost guaranteed safety.

It's your choice how risky you want to play things.

 

[Zenicetus]

In fact I'll chart out a little risk spectrum here:

Guaranteed death.
1. Self destruct.
2. Fight.
3. Run and ignore hails.
4. Run and respond to hails.
5. Drop small amount of cargo/lowest value cargo.
6. Drop moderate amount of cargo/medium value cargo.
7. Drop high amount of cargo/high value cargo.
8. Drop all your cargo.
Almost guaranteed safety.

It's your choice how risky you want to play things.

You're still comparing what the pirate thinks is reasonable, vs. what the trader thinks is reasonable. When there is a mismatch (trader thinks dropping two cans is enough, pirate disagrees), the trader is killed and the pirate goes on the trader's Ignore list. And maybe the Ignore list of all the trader's friends.

How do the pirates keep that from happening, so they have more than just NPC's to rob?

It won't happen with an honor system, that's for sure, because apparently nobody can agree on what's "reasonable." The game developers will have to put mechanics in place to ensure that, yes, traders and miners are having fun in the game too. Somewhere between completely safe and being completely at the mercy of the unique whims of each pirate they encounter.

 

[Stoopyface]

Zenicetus I think you're looking at things in the wrong way. In fact I think the way in which we perceive piracy is fundamentally different. In my mind there shouldn't be a reasonable amount for a pirate to take, it shouldn't be so predictable that it can be calculated and accounted for on an individual scale.

I see it more along the lines of the target will try and get away with as much as they can and so will the pirate. The piracy target will only surrender what he feels he needs to (if anything) in order to escape and the pirate will likewise push for as much as he can either through intimidation or combat. This is where the risk comes into it, you run a high risk by not giving up much and a low risk by giving away more.

I don't think you should try and find a global standard for piracy, because I'd find that very dull.

In terms of what is to stop traders being killed when offering too little and what is to stop people being put on ignore lists:

I see no issue with a trader being killed for not dropping enough cargo. It is the choice of the pirate's target how much they comply and so they deal with the consequences of that.

I don't think ED will have ignore lists that can be mass populated. Currently you have to see someone in the game to put them on your ignore list and so hopefully that will stay. I would also like there to be a limit to the number of players that can be on your ignore list. The ignore list should be used to avoid people that are abusive or that have singled you out repeatedly. The ignore list shouldn't just be used to avoid an aspect of the game or to avoid players that are acting as they should be.

That some people do not want to deal with players I have no doubt. Others will only want to deal with players if they behave within a strict list of caveats (accept the cargo I drop and leave, warn me three times before you fire or whatever it may be). However these players should really be in solo mode or private group.

 

[Zenicetus]

Zenicetus I think you're looking at things in the wrong way. In fact I think the way in which we perceive piracy is fundamentally different. In my mind there shouldn't be a reasonable amount for a pirate to take, it shouldn't be so predictable that it can be calculated and accounted for on an individual scale.

I agree that a standard formula would be boring, like "you're always safe if you drop 50% of your cargo," something like that. But remember, we don't have functional comms right now for negotiation. So, many traders will just drop and boost, whatever that dropped amount is.

I see it more along the lines of the target will try and get away with as much as they can and so will the pirate. The piracy target will only surrender what he feels he needs to (if anything) in order to escape and the pirate will likewise push for as much as he can either through intimidation or combat. This is where the risk comes into it, you run a high risk by not giving up much and a low risk by giving away more.

I don't think you should try and find a global standard for piracy, because I'd find that very dull.

But isn't that exactly what you're proposing here, for a trader who wants to minimize risk and escape with an intact ship? The only guarantee of that, apparently, is to drop all the cargo, right?

Much of this talk of piracy assumes negotiation of some kind will take place, and I don't think that's going to happen. Many people will just boost and run, or drop cargo and run. At least until we get something like hotkey comms that everyone (including Rift owners) can easily use.

In terms of what is to stop traders being killed when offering too little and what is to stop people being put on ignore lists:

I see no issue with a trader being killed for not dropping enough cargo. It is the choice of the pirate's target how much they comply and so they deal with the consequences of that.

Right, and again we come back to the idea that the only safe move for the trader is to drop all their cargo. Is this reasonable, from the trader's perspective?

I don't think ED will have ignore lists that can be mass populated. Currently you have to see someone in the game to put them on your ignore list and so hopefully that will stay.

Your're probably right about that.

I would also like there to be a limit to the number of players that can be on your ignore list. The ignore list should be used to avoid people that are abusive or that have singled you out repeatedly. The ignore list shouldn't just be used to avoid an aspect of the game or to avoid players that are acting as they should be.

We'll have to see what FD comes up with, but I doubt there will be a limit to the Ignore list. The way I understand it, Ignore doesn't completely prevent the Ignored player player from loading into the 1st player's "Island" bubble, but it puts them at the bottom of the list, below any other players in the same general location. So unless I misunderstand it, or they change it, it's not actually an ironclad Ignore function anyway.

If there is an Ignore function at all, I don't see how it can be policed so that players can't use it simply to avoid repeat bad encounters, of any kind the player doesn't like. Otherwise why have an Ignore function at all? You can't determine what another player finds annoying, which is the issue at the heart of this entire thread about piracy.

 

[Stoopyface]

Well firstly we do have functional comms. I can sort of feel for people who have a headset that stops them seeing their keyboard, but they can still see messages the same as anyone else and if they really wanted to they could just not wear the headset. Regardless, so long as the pirates aren't the ones typing blind then all the trader has to do is not comply or comply. No negotiation really has to happen that can't be communicated through in game actions. This all assumes that the person with the headset also doesn't have a mic.

Secondly, the above is all moot. Player traders never willingly drop cargo so really all that needs to happen is I need to be able to tell them I want their cargo and then when they ignore me I can kill them.

You're not really getting the whole risk thing. There is no way to guarantee safety. When someone pulls you out of supercruise and says give me your stuff or I will kill you that is not a safe situation! Yes the safest thing for a trader to do is drop all their cargo, but that doesn't mean people will do it.

I expect no trader will ever drop all their cargo in fact. However, the choice is up to them on how safe they want to play it. Do they give the pirate nothing and risk being blown up out of hand? Do they drop not that much and see what happens? Do they drop quite a bit to get the added safety that brings? Do they drop everything and thus are all but guaranteed to escape?

You're right about ignoring not being an ironclad ability to never see someone again, but if it's only you in an instance and someone on your ignore list comes into the same bubble then they will be placed in a different instance (and vice versa). So how that will work with supercruise and interdictions I am not sure.

The purpose of the ignore function is to avoid people that grief or are abusive in some way or at least that's the reason stated in the DDF archive IIRC. I think "use it simply to avoid repeat bad encounters, of any kind the player doesn't like" and "You can't determine what another player finds annoying" sums up my problem with the ignore function as planned. The ignore function shouldn't be used so that traders can avoid pirates. If someone has such a problem with players then they shouldn't be playing in the all group.

 

[MahdDogg]

I'm flying a fat trader ship. You're a pirate, and you knock me out of SC to normal space to grab my cargo. I'm wearing the Rift and/or using a HOTAS with my keyboard pushed away, so I don't have an easy way to communicate via text. So whether you're issuing a "Stand and Deliver" or not is irrelevant. I just quickly select two random cans from my cargo -- and not necessarily my prize cargo, either -- and I eject those two cans. Then i quickly boost away, FA Off, and try to enter SC again.

What's your next action? Will that be enough, or will you chase me and blast me out of the sky because I didn't drop all my cargo, or stop to listen to your exact demands? And if you do kill me, why wouldn't I then put you on my Ignore list? And maybe even tell my trader friends, so they can Ignore you too? Again, that's from a "typical trader" perspective and not how I would personally act in the game.

Firstly let me say a big thank you to you for actually engaging with a well thought out response. It comes as a refreshing change I must tell you. You do bring up an excellent point. How much is enough?

In all honesty if you ditched something worthless and I thought you were holding out on me, personally I would attempt to mass lock you and disable your ship. As a pirate I would most likely be in a cheap, fast and small vessel with teeth, more than capable of keeping up with you. One with a pretty low cargo cap. This would give you some indication of how little cargo would satiate "pirate me".

Truly though the comms issue makes some of what I discussed earlier pretty moot, but I am looking to the long term, release version side of the experience. Would you, as a rift user, have voice (ie a mic and something like voice attack) set up? I know I would prefer to use the in game voice system over text chat for piracy, due to the immediacy of response and the fact that I, too, would not be wanting to take my hands off the stick in a potentially volatile situation.

There's no real right answer here, I'm just getting rather irked at the expectation that being pirated in the game should be some hand holding, holistic, nicey nicey experience.

As someone who is primarily trading, of course I would prefer not to be pirated, but when I am eventually interdicted, I expect it to not be a pleasant experience with tea and cucumber sandwiches. I expect to have my in game life in the balance. At that point, as a trader I would have to decide what is more valuable, my ship? Or what I'm hauling. Every pirate is going to be different, some may be merciful, some more ruthless. Like I said previously; to expect a code of conduct from a scallywag is oxymoronic.

I think with regards to the ignore list the only way to prevent it's abuse, and putting people on it who aren't griefing or harassing is clearly an abuse of it's intention, is if a player can only be ignored during or immediately after an interaction. Maybe triggered by being targeted or something. Otherwise we will see sites like reddit with lists of confirmed player pirates going up for people to add to their ignore list, which is a manipulation of the function outside of it's intended use.

 

[Jax Herah]

there needs to be a protectorate service that you can join to combat this pirating of profits. this in game job allows you to patrol and enforce the law on recorded criminal actions. it also could have the benefit of a unique military tracking system that was donated to the cause.

whilst we have traders and pirates there needs to be a third group leaving the pirates with more of a "job" to do to maintain their pirate status and intent to any lucrative benefit.

I realise that pirating is wanted in the game, that is the unrealistic part. i want it there too. but its far to open to suggestion which leaves debates on the topic revolving.

so yeah either let me kill pirates directly as an in game role and responsibility. or allow me to send some AI bad ass pilots to get revenge, make a pirates life a true decision. and not a frivolous way to make profit alongside our hard earners.

 

[scrufferpops]

Its certainly a valid profession in the big game world that is elite and without it the trading would be worse off for it.

Personally speaking I will try my hand at all available professions at points in the game and piracy is one of them of course.

But I don't intend on ruining anyone's day doing so either.

 

[scrufferpops]

Stand and deliver!!!

(Ba didly qua qua)

 

[Zvanya]

[ROLEPLAY]Actually I think all this talk about "gentlemanly pirating" is hogwash. Pirates are murdering scum and should be treated as such. If a pirate tells you "stand and deliver" your response should be >expletive< You! Fight, run, whatever. Anything but give him cargo. I'll self destruct before giving in to such barbarians.[/ROLEPLAY]

 

[Zenicetus]

[ROLEPLAY]Actually I think all this talk about "gentlemanly pirating" is hogwash. Pirates are murdering scum and should be treated as such. If a pirate tells you "stand and deliver" your response should be >expletive< You! Fight, run, whatever. Anything but give him cargo. I'll self destruct before giving in to such barbarians.[/ROLEPLAY]

Yeah, that's going to be me, if I'm coming in from the Frontier in a Cobra (or whatever the Explorer ship turns out to be), with an exotic alien artifact in my hold to sell somewhere. You'll get that over my dead body, because I won't have done all that work, which may represent days or weeks of game time, to just hand it over. Traders, smugglers, and explorers shouldn't be expected to just roll over.

Here's another wrinkle in all this. Right now, there is no indication of how much time a player has been in the game. No way to tell a newbie from a veteran. Someone who knows the ropes and is wealthy from trade might not give a second thought to just dumping all their cargo. It's going to feel very different for someone new to the game who just got their first Lakon 6 (and who should be playing Solo, I know), especially if the financial rewards from pure trading are toned down.

All I can say is that it will be fascinating to see how FD tries to balance all this, because while I think of myself as a smuggler/explorer in this game, I *do* want the risk of meeting pirates. But when stepping back, I can see where traders, miners, and explorers also need to have fun in the game.

P.S. Thanks to MahdDogg, Stoopyface, and everyone else here for the civil discussion of this topic. It's great to see all sides of this issue. We're really just sitting in a virtual pub here, sharing a few virtual pints while we talk about a game where all the mechanics aren't in yet. It's been fun, and I've shifted a few of my views as a result. Let's see what happens in the next Beta revisions.

 

[T.S.F.]

This is my solution to the traders blocking pirates from their instances.

If the ignore list was set to a maximum of let's say 50 people, and only 10 changes could be made per week. Because there are so many people playing as a pirate, ignoring 50 of them would be almost meaningless, forcing people to only use the ignore list the way it should be used: to ignore disrespectful players (aka people who act like 10 year old brats).

Edit: Rewards for the trading profession should be considerably less, making it more balanced with the bounty hunter profession and all the rest. The only outlier might be the pirate profession, which could be considerably less rewarding over time (credits/time) than the average profession shown above, depending on how good you are at being a pirate. Elite: Dangerous has become very biased toward trading. I never played the older Elite games (unless you count playing the original several months ago emulated in the DosBox for 20 minutes) but I always assumed that all the professions were, on average, equally awarding. I see people gaining 100-300 credits for taking down a wanted ship, and then see a trader making 10,000s of credits per run. The unbalance of it all ticks me.

 

[desposa]

The little pirating I've done till now was mostly on Unidentified Signals, so just npcs.
They dropped their cargo, yes, but I blew them away anyway, no survivors.
I know I'm a cruel, cold blooded pirate, but hey, I got to make a name for my self and in this proffession, nasty is a good thing.

 

[Andi]

The little pirating I've done till now was mostly on Unidentified Signals, so just npcs.
They dropped their cargo, yes, but I blew them away anyway, no survivors.
I know I'm a cruel, cold blooded pirate, but hey, I got to make a name for my self and in this proffession, nasty is a good thing.

The point being, that you will not make a name for yourself as a pirate, but as a killer. Pirates would scoop up the stuff, that's what pirates do. They're robbers, not murderers. At least in Elite.

 

[desposa]

The point being, that you will not make a name for yourself as a pirate, but as a killer. Pirates would scoop up the stuff, that's what pirates do. They're robbers, not murderers. At least in Elite.

They can and have been known to be both, like it or not, it's true.

 

[ENM]

If I was a trader I'd want to carry a few "weaponized canisters" that might look like normal commodity canisters but in fact be camouflaged mines. It seems like the kind of thing which would be likely to exist in a setting like this. Hopefully it'll be implemented at some point.

 

[Zvanya]

If I was a trader I'd want to carry a few "weaponized canisters" that might look like normal commodity canisters but in fact be camouflaged mines. It seems like the kind of thing which would be likely to exist in a setting like this. Hopefully it'll be implemented at some point.

I like it! Label them "Gold"