News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal

[JosiahD]

So by 'cherry picking' since you mentioned a 'mercenary approach' I assume you're thinking of people who scan only high value (in credit terms) planets?

Are you willing to accept that players may have reasons other than a credit hunt for being selective? Asking because there seems to be a near-universal assumption that it's all about credits when as many players have already commented in the previous 200 pages, much of the reason for being selective has absolutely nothing to do with credits.

It grinds my gears in particular because one of the things I've always looked for when exploring is terraformable words. Say that to someone now and they're automatically going to assume it's about credits but it's been a motivator to me since long before the buff to exploration payouts saw them paying a fortune for first discoveries. It was actually some of the very small amount of roleplay I employ when playing the game; searching out what are potentially colony worlds. Seeking out potentially colonisable areas and areas rich in natural resources was in fact one of the main motivators of all of the great voyages of discovery in human history. That's exploration - it's not even a debate.

Other than that I'm looking for things that I find interesting or attractive. I couldn't even begin to give you a detailed list because it is in itself subjective - often you don't really know until you find it. Again, that is most assuredly exploration.

Finally I have an ongoing mission to discover high-G landable worlds. They're almost exclusively worthless in credit terms since they're bog-standard HMCs the vast majority of the time.

They could put the credit payouts back to what they were when I earned my Elite exploration rank before the buff and I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

There's nothing praiseworthy about habitually scanning everything in a system either by the way. People do it either because they find it entertaining, which is the entire point of playing a computer game but means they're doing it purely for themselves, just like I play the way I do for myself, or because they feel it's the 'proper' way to explore. Anybody who does if for the second reason and feels some kind of compulsion to do it even if they may not always enjoy is is a fool.

This is a game. We aren't compelled to do anything. It's supposed to be about having fun not having a second job, despite the fact that some people seem to treat it like one both in terms of the seriousness they attach to it and in the way they seem to think people should accept a certain amount of drudgery as being part of the overall package. That's an approach I've always applied to life because if we don't, we're going to spend a hell of a lot of it miserably fighting against things we will never change but it has no place whatsoever in a leisure product which we play voluntarily to make us happy.

Of course the motivations for cherrypicking are varied. But I would suggest an approach like yours is more the exception than the rule. And in any event, from a scientific or possible colonisation point of view, if we were to roleplay this out, having found and scanned only such objects (as terraformables or earth-likes) is only part of the picture - one needs also the other objects in the system, and likely neighbouring systems as well. That's what I do when I find an earth-like.

But as I wrote, cherrypicking is not an invalid approach, just not one I agree with.

I would argue the exploration mechanics proposed are what we should have had from the start - an initial honk to detect objects (but not to the point of being sure what they are), further scanning to get more detail on each object (eg planet type, composition), additional tools to then actually map the surface to identify locations of interest or resources. Bring on the beta with the proposed mechanics I say, then let's see just how it is before we get too carried away.

 

[GJ51]

If I only scan one object in a system, does that somehow change under the proposed changes?

Or are we just rehashing the old notion that what any one CMDR chooses to do is worthy of criticism by others?

 

[Faded Glory]

So it's making exploration even more shallow then what it already is. Not what I want to see.

Max, I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

At no point do I suggest taking away any of the proposed new mechanics or game-play such as it is. I'm simply saying that being able to ascertain that there are reasons for me to engage in the new game-play would make sense.

400 billion systems... Probably still less than 1% discovered. When I explore currently, I jump into a system, honk, look at the system map, and if there's anything there that makes me want to take a closer look, then that's what I do, currently passively by flying to the planet and letting my DSS do it's thing. Under the new system / mechanics there's no reason it shouldn't be exactly the same, jump into the system, honk, and if things look interesting start tuning you scanner to find and scan the bodies you are interested in, and further to that, in the new system you may find anomalies or POI's that tweak your interest and lead you to fly to the body in question and map it using probes.

I don't see how being able to see what is in the system via the system map would change any of that.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

IMHO alot of the potential fears or risk assessments currenty come from a single, basic but quite significant issue :

FDev seem to have only very recently started concepting the Q4 Exporation update and it's very early in development, despite being due for Beta "in a few weeks".
Thus, all we have now is a Wall of Text and 2 concept images.

- it would make alot more sense for them to assemble a Video of the typical functionality and upload that as work-in-progress/Alpha footage
-> that allows to get a rough grip of what happens when, see the flow of events in action and assess the Utility (and time required) for the new mechanics to do their thing

- it also tells me personally that we'll likely only see a purely mechanical change to Exploration and possibly no real other related updates
Maybe just me, but I expected a very broad range of more Exploration content and deeper Gameplay coming from it, due to being in development since months already - not just a new mechanic.
Might turn out nice but is only the foundation for a supposed big Exploration Update.
The big piece of meat required is what new things to find in Systems, the incentive to dig through a System with the new mechanics and invest the time & effort plus Probes.

If my assessment is correct, we might (worst-case) see the exact same boring, repetitive old existing System Maps with minimal variation and pretty much nothing to find on Planet Surfaces or inside the Systems in general - just requiring 10-100x more effort depending on number of Objects in the System.
The 2nd "I bombarded this Planet with Probes" tag is a nice touch but really isn't much. Just another Tag likely noone will ever see anyway (in Deep Space).

Long story short, I think some Video footage of the new parts moving and doing their thing would be required to build solid and pinpoint feedback on it.
Also hoping the Patchnotes will list alot of new Exploration related additions. It needs to count, not much room for underdelivering or errors this time.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I think that there are three things FD are trying to do with the new exploration stuff.

1. Make it more interactive / engaging.
2. Streamline / remove the need for long SC trips in order to 'discover' bodies in a system.
3. Add more stuff to find.

Right now, it's fair to say that exploration mechanics are passive, and potentially long winded. However, to achieve the above points, there's no need to remove the honk being visually represented.

The new process once the system is shown will satisfy both points one and two, as players will use the new more active scanning mechanics to fully reveal the details of the planets in the system, and won't have to fly there to do it. If point three is valid in a system the player will have the opportunity to make the SC trip to the relevant bodies and undertake another active scan with probes.

Removing the ADS scan's visual results is something that FD presumably felt was a good idea, but the community reaction is mainly about some people pointing out it might be detrimental, and then a few others lambasting them as lazy, wanting an I win button or claiming that they don't want exploration to be difficult.

It won't be difficult either way, that's not what FD are trying to do. They (I'm sure) want it to be more fun so more players do it. It also likely won't be skillful whatever some people want to believe, I mean it's a computer game... It will be more active and engaging though.

You're right, the current ADS provides no game-play, and neither does the exploration process after the honk. It also doesn't let players actually 'discover' a system, just shows them whether there's stuff there to investigate further or not. Game-play that occurs after the honk is what FD are trying to address and make more engaging and fun.

Sorry, but I cannot see how "one honk magically reveals all surface details of every stellar body in the system" is equivalent to "fun". Convenient, perhaps, but not fun. Indeed, the instant loss of mystery feel like the opposite of fun to me.

Now I am not opposed to having players getting some visual representations of the stellar objects prior to signal resolution-like the HUD circles showing approximate positions, and/or the darkened spheres of a crude system map-but the current ADS mechanic really does need to go.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

IMHO alot of the potential fears or risk assessments currenty come from a single, basic but quite significant issue :

FDev seem to have only very recently started concepting the Q4 Exporation update and it's very early in development, despite being due for Beta "in a few weeks".
Thus, all we have now is a Wall of Text and 2 concept images.

- it would make alot more sense for them to assemble a Video of the typical functionality and upload that as work-in-progress/Alpha footage
-> that allows to get a rough grip of what happens when, see the flow of events in action and assess the Utility (and time required) for the new mechanics to do their thing

- it also tells me personally that we'll likely only see a purely mechanical change to Exploration and possibly no real other related updates
Maybe just me, but I expected a very broad range of more Exploration content and deeper Gameplay coming from it, due to being in development since months already - not just a new mechanic.
Might turn out nice but is only the foundation for a supposed big Exploration Update.
The big piece of meat required is what new things to find in Systems, the incentive to dig through a System with the new mechanics and invest the time & effort plus Probes.

If my assessment is correct, we might (worst-case) see the exact same boring, repetitive old existing System Maps with minimal variation and pretty much nothing to find on Planet Surfaces or inside the Systems in general - just requiring 10-100x more effort depending on number of Objects in the System.
The 2nd "I bombarded this Planet with Probes" tag is a nice touch but really isn't much. Just another Tag likely noone will ever see anyway (in Deep Space).

Long story short, I think some Video footage of the new parts moving and doing their thing would be required to build solid and pinpoint feedback on it.
Also hoping the Patchnotes will list alot of new Exploration related additions. It needs to count, not much room for underdelivering or errors this time.

That is highly doubtful. Even back at Lavecon they were showing off aspects of the Q4 exploration update, which suggests they have been working on it for close to a year now. Sure they didn't share all the details with us, but given how the forum has responded, & given how the forum usually responds to stuff, I can hardly say I am surprised at their reticence.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Sorry, but I cannot see how "one honk magically reveals all surface details of every stellar body in the system" is equivalent to "fun". Convenient, perhaps, but not fun. Indeed, the instant loss of mystery feel like the opposite of fun to me.

Now I am not opposed to having players getting some visual representations of the stellar objects prior to signal resolution-like the HUD circles showing approximate positions, and/or the darkened spheres of a crude system map-but the current ADS mechanic really does need to go.

and the problem with both new and old mechanics being optional is?

 

[Marc_Hicks]

On a related note.

Its a minor quibble, but when it comes to scanning for USS's, I hope they might consider moving that scan to a seperate controller, minus the honk (it should produce a sound, but maybe something a bit less raucous?) This same, secondary controller could also be a means by which players can bypass the FSS resolution mechanic, if they are within a certain range of a stellar body.

Also, not so much for Q4, but maybe further down the line, it would be great if scans could be low, middle or high powered, with the power level effecting how much is revealed to the player, as well as how much the player is revealed to nearby ships.

 

[Faded Glory]

Indeed, the instant loss of mystery feel like the opposite of fun to me.

Well, it horses for courses, isn't it.

For me, I'll be honest, the feeling of mystery every time I jump into a system will soon turn to a feeling of misery, knowing that only way I'll find out that the system wasn't worth investigating is by investigating it.

As others have said, it's not only the mechanics of exploration that need some work, there's the question of what there is to find and what you can do with it. With the new DSS, FD are trying to give players a way to find needles in haystacks, which is good. I just don't see how hiding the haystack makes any sense...

I'm not sure what the hostility to the current system map stems from. All it does is let a player see quickly whether they want to spend any time in a system. It's no more or less than a mission description, or CG description, an invite to engage or not.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

and the problem with both new and old mechanics being optional is?

Because having two doesn't make any logical sense. It needs to be one of the other.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Because having two doesn't make any logical sense.

How exactly?

 

[Faded Glory]

Because having two doesn't make any logical sense. It needs to be one of the other.

I'm not sure it's about logic... Claiming it has to be one or the other seems more of an emotional response.

Unless you understand the current scanning system working differently to how I see it working (and of course we could both be wrong ), my previous posts show how to me at least, knowing whether what is in a system before I commit too much game time to investigating it will be worth that time, would be a positive step.

Not having this information would be worse IMHO than simply leaving stuff up to RNG, which can be an awful waste of time. It's the opposite of what they are proposing for USS discovery, which has generally been well received. We're no longer expecting you to fly around aimlessly waiting for what you are looking for to spawn, we're going to let you actively discover it instead.

But while we're at it, we're going to hide the contents of a system so that you won't know if it's of interest until after you've actively scanned / investigated it. If it wasn't what you're looking for, well, sorry, try another of the 399 billion systems.

 

[iain666]

But, upon honking you would at least see how many astronomical bodies you will have to work with.

As described the honk gives you the main star and the screenshots shown have a % bodies scanned number so you've got that under the new system.

 

[iain666]

It is easy to assume & berate, isn't it?

You are certainly making it so, but I will resist.

 

[Ziljan]

Because having two doesn't make any logical sense. It needs to be one of the other.

Eh, maybe let them have this one. It is true, it does have to be one set or the other set. But I don't see why we can't have both sets of scanners in the game, as long each set will only work with its paired scanner, eg New with New and Old with Old, but no mixing of Old ADS + New DSS (or New ADS + Old DSS), because the technologies are incompatible. Of course, both sets would still be able to launch probes.

I think I would actually be just fine with this because the new set has some rather serious advantages:

NEW SYSTEM:
1) infinite range
2) easier cherry picking
3) faster scanning with no travel times, and will allow for use of probes without necessarily increasing the time relative to the old system

OLD SYSTEM:
1) instant reveal of system map
2) you can still watch Netflix, binge drink/toke, be missing half a brain and still play it
3) will take FOREVER once you add probes to the old point+travel+wait mechanic, which gives you more time to watch Netflix per system


If die hard clingers of the old ways want to hold onto their old ADS and old DSS combo why not let them? They'll be moving along like happy little snails. As long as they're happy who cares how much faster we collect high value tags?

 

[Ziljan]

Hey, that's an excellent idea, actually! So easy, can't believe I couldn't come up with this myself, so obvious. Everyone will be happy and all this shebang was actually for nothing. Brilliant.

Yeah the only hiccup is Wings, which currently shares ADS info. But you could solve that by either:

1) making wings only share Level 2 and Level 3 scans, but not Level 1.
2) or going nuclear and making the new system work with multicrew, while the old one would still work with winged gameplay (but not multicrew, because only one person can aim the ship at a time).

#2 sounds drastic, but if you think about it, the infinite range of the new scanner makes it ideal for multicrew, but only reveals level 3 data for wings anyway, so wings are really no better than multicrew (except for the whole 4:3 ratio thing)

 

[Red Anders]

Eh, maybe let them have this one. It is true, it does have to be one set or the other set. But I don't see why we can't have both sets of scanners in the game, as long each set will only work with its paired scanner, eg New with New and Old with Old, but no mixing of Old ADS + New DSS (or New ADS + Old DSS), because the technologies are incompatible. Of course, both sets would still be able to launch probes.

I think I would actually be just fine with this because the new set has some rather serious advantages:

NEW SYSTEM:
1) infinite range
2) easier cherry picking
3) faster scanning with no travel times, and will allow for use of probes without necessarily increasing the time relative to the old system

OLD SYSTEM:
1) instant reveal of system map
2) you can still watch Netflix, binge drink/toke, be missing half a brain and still play it
3) will take FOREVER once you add probes to the old point+travel+wait mechanic, which gives you more time to watch Netflix per system


If die hard clingers of the old ways want to hold onto their old ADS and old DSS combo why not let them? They'll be moving along like happy little snails. As long as they're happy who cares how much faster we collect high value tags?

That would be pretty much perfect. It's a genuine gameplay choice, with benefits and costs whichever you choose. Fast system overview but if what it shows you is that you want to scan it all, you're there all night. Or faster overall scan of a system but without the benefit of the front-loaded system overview.

As you say, the probes would have to be added to the current DSS because if a player is using the old set of devices they're going to have to fly to anything they think they might want to probe in order to detail scan it, so denying use of the probes at all (which I'm sure someone will say is what should happen) would be purely vindictive rather than something with any sensible basis in gameplay.

People may be able to collect 'high value' tags faster using the new system but assuming you're using the term 'high value' in the monetary sense, I couldn't care less about that. If both sets of gear were in the game I have no doubt at all that I would use the new set at some time but it would be for a specific expedition to a specific area where I knew I would want to be doing intensive scanning of everything. For a more general trip off into the distance I'd probably still use the old set and accept that supercruising to bodies to detail scan them is an acceptable trade-off for knowing whether I might want to detail scan them to begin with within ten seconds of arriving in the system.

God knows whether its coded in such a way that integrating both sets of gear simultaneously would even be plausible though.

I don't even have netflix by the way. Sorry and all that.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

and the problem with both new and old mechanics being optional is?

Why not apply that approach to other parts of the game then, hmmm? Normal FSD for people who want to travel the normal way, & insta-travel for those who want to get to Colonia in a more "convenient" manner. Or combat where some players can choose to fight normally, but give the option of an insta kill button.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Why not apply that approach to other parts of the game then, hmmm? Normal FSD for people who want to travel the normal way, & insta-travel for those who want to get to Colonia in a more "convenient" manner. Or combat where some players can choose to fight normally, but give the option of an insta kill button.

Both of those features have optional mechanics to speed up or slow down things.

FSD travel has neutron star jumping and engineering upgrades to increase jump range.

Combat has solo mode for those who don't want to participate in combat as well as all combat being locked behind either combat zones, uss instances or successful interdictions.

 

[Ziljan]

I'm afraid there is another one: What about all those explorers currently far out in the void? The new system is supposed to be automatically applied (I figure mainly with them in mind), how do they have a choice?

They could have a dialog box pop up when 3.3 launches that asks them if they want to upgrade their ship.

Just thought of another issue, USS are now generated for the whole system and found by the new discovery scanner. But it's not really a change for people with the old scanners, since the old ADS/DSS can still use the same previous method of locating USS: random proximity encounters. Depending on how the USS are resolved (using filters, or just passively pointing), there doesn't necessarily have to be a difference between the way USS work between the two sets.