Its time for a bigger newer SHIP

[Daish]

let's forget all about the copy & paste ships of old yes we have all seen them and not impressed.
Now it's time for something bigger...


keeping with two aspects from the days of the original and frontiers concept that never made it...so far...

It's time to bring in both the Boa & the long overdue Panther clipper, where have they gone???

Why,

Well why not, A bigger cargo transporter would be a welcome change to the mid level copy & paste that we only seem to get of late.

Boa, from the original Elite 1984 a larger than the Connie holding more cargo, would be the first place to start not combat focused as that's all we seem to get, but a dedicated cargo hauler.

Panther clipper, used to be as common as todays stating about space legs, the panther clipper, should have been here by now, it has dragged its bottom for a few years, unlike the dolphin that also took it's time to arrive.

So WHY are we still waiting for these ships, why are we not getting a good balance across the board for both trading, exploring, and end the combat pushed only game play for next season, 2019 should be about making Elite what it should be a multi verse of "Blazing your OWN way", and not having to push material to get that whopping big gun!!!.

Bring back the elite trading, exploring, Pirating fun that we used to know all those years ago, and with less material grind would be a welcome break.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

let's forget all about the copy & paste ships of old yes we have all seen them and not impressed.
Now it's time for something bigger...


keeping with two aspects from the days of the original and frontiers concept that never made it...so far...

It's time to bring in both the Boa & the long overdue Panther clipper, where have they gone???

Why,

Well why not, A bigger cargo transporter would be a welcome change to the mid level copy & paste that we only seem to get of late.

Boa, from the original Elite 1984 a larger than the Connie holding more cargo, would be the first place to start not combat focused as that's all we seem to get, but a dedicated cargo hauler.

Panther clipper, used to be as common as todays stating about space legs, the panther clipper, should have been here by now, it has dragged its bottom for a few years, unlike the dolphin that also took it's time to arrive.

So WHY are we still waiting for these ships, why are we not getting a good balance across the board for both trading, exploring, and end the combat pushed only game play for next season, 2019 should be about making Elite what it should be a multi verse of "Blazing your OWN way", and not having to push material to get that whopping big gun!!!.

Bring back the elite trading, exploring, Pirating fun that we used to know all those years ago, and with less material grind would be a welcome break.

I'm all for it!
I used to love my Boa, get attacked by pirates in falcons (jump drive or weapon... lol) I'd just stop and the bounties would arrive along with the familiar 'pop' when they crashed into me.

But things change and we're makin a 'helloaload' of credits with nothing to spend em on, I know we could buy a bigger ship... carry more cargo, get more wedge, the cycle goes on unless something changes, and I really don't think it can, the Economy is broken and has been since day one (the writing of the first passage in the ED chapter)

ED made the same mistake as do all adventure and RPG's when creating their economy, except in ED's case it's bigger because they expect/want the game to be played for a decade or more not just a few weeks or even months.
The mistake was, they let someone in the office do the economy and picked arbitrary numbers to represent a loaf of bread base price (base ship price in this case) and then it kinda just all got out of hand with numbers being based on a 'desire of the moment' instead of a real actual cost for creation... further enhanced by the problem of there is no mechanic for ship creation other that another desire of the moment, so we have all of these inconsistencies now holding as lore, and the 'old guard' keep reminding us about the game in 1984... which is utterly pointless but they do it anyway.
There's a ton of ships that could be reintroduced from the older game, I'd truly love to see the old 'Tiger Trader' the 'Lion' and such like plying the space lanes as of old, but the 2014 game ships have been homogenized into an expected goo with differences made up by 'slots' and gun quota, the 'old' game had Acceleration and Deceleration stats that affected your choice.

So we have the best cargo ship is a luxury warship! the python is a tardis and the Anaconda is made of some magic, and these stalwarts will always dictate what we can have as ships because their 'numbers' were made up with no thought for the future, as the Physics and Economy charts should have dictated the ship and the market instead of the other way round.

so, with the damage done on page one I think that the big trade tools are likely to come towards the further end of ED development, unless of course they keep introducing ever bigger ships for players to squander credits on, we may well be getting the Fleet Carrier 'later' but I fear it'll somehow be excluded from the solo player... though why I can't tell, I have a fleet, albeit a small one!

 

[CMDR Iolair]

I don't understand why we've not seen the Panther Clipper (or Panther Clipper LX, as some NPC crew describe it) yet. It could dock in a station in FE2/FFE, of course it would fill out the maximum dimensions of a large pad and steer even worse than the Type 9. But it ought to have four Size 8 slots in there and at least one huge hardpoint, so that would be some recompense.

Unless, of course, they've retasked the Panther name/design as one of the upcoming fleet carriers, which would explain the extended delay.

Ships do have different acceleration/deceleration characteristics - for example some have noticeably bad retros. It's just not the headline feature it was in FE2/FFE.

 

[Kamiyoda]

I don't understand why we've not seen the Panther Clipper (or Panther Clipper LX, as some NPC crew describe it) yet. It could dock in a station in FE2/FFE, of course it would fill out the maximum dimensions of a large pad and steer even worse than the Type 9. But it ought to have four Size 8 slots in there and at least one huge hardpoint, so that would be some recompense.

Unless, of course, they've retasked the Panther name/design as one of the upcoming fleet carriers, which would explain the extended delay.

Ships do have different acceleration/deceleration characteristics - for example some have noticeably bad retros. It's just not the headline feature it was in FE2/FFE.

Doee anyone remember the Panther LX Mockup they did a while back? I liked that

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Ships do have different acceleration/deceleration characteristics - for example some have noticeably bad retros. It's just not the headline feature it was in FE2/FFE.

I'd like to see some data/figures on that then... do you have any or is it just a feeling you have?
If you have them lets see it an I'll retract my claim and bow down!

 

[Arry]

let's forget all about the copy & paste ships of old yes we have all seen them and not impressed.
Now it's time for something bigger...


keeping with two aspects from the days of the original and frontiers concept that never made it...so far...

It's time to bring in both the Boa & the long overdue Panther clipper, where have they gone???

Why,

Well why not, A bigger cargo transporter would be a welcome change to the mid level copy & paste that we only seem to get of late.

Boa, from the original Elite 1984 a larger than the Connie holding more cargo, would be the first place to start not combat focused as that's all we seem to get, but a dedicated cargo hauler.

Panther clipper, used to be as common as todays stating about space legs, the panther clipper, should have been here by now, it has dragged its bottom for a few years, unlike the dolphin that also took it's time to arrive.

So WHY are we still waiting for these ships, why are we not getting a good balance across the board for both trading, exploring, and end the combat pushed only game play for next season, 2019 should be about making Elite what it should be a multi verse of "Blazing your OWN way", and not having to push material to get that whopping big gun!!!.

Bring back the elite trading, exploring, Pirating fun that we used to know all those years ago, and with less material grind would be a welcome break.

Making larger ship would mean, having to make the mail slots larger across the whole Galaxy. Do you have any idea, just how mush work that would entail?

 

[ogrando]

the return of the Panther Clipper, with payload of 2100 ton [heart]

 

[who?]

Making larger ship would mean, having to make the mail slots larger across the whole Galaxy. Do you have any idea, just how mush work that would entail?

Or park the ship outside, and use ship-launched shuttles to ferry cargo and fetch missions. For outfitting etc., add a select few planetary or orbital shipyards with huge landing pads. Probably easier than re-doing all the stations.

 

[RamirezKurita]

Making larger ship would mean, having to make the mail slots larger across the whole Galaxy. Do you have any idea, just how mush work that would entail?

Actually, there's still quite a lot of space available on both large landing pads and the mailslot for the Boa and any potential Federal Frigate as they are both so much smaller than the Beluga and Cutter. The Beluga is 34% longer than the Anaconda, 112% wider and the T-10 is 23% taller than the Anaconda, for example. Even if the Boa were to retain the exact same aspect ratio as the Anaconda but just be 23% larger on each dimension, then it would overall give 85% volume than the Anaconda. Considering how the Anaconda has relatively mediocre internal space despite its size, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a ship with those increased dimensions to offer close to double the cargo capacity (plus larger core internals to match).

A similar case could be made for a Federal Frigate, expanding a Corvette-like design to the dimensions of the Beluga and the T-10, possibly including altering the aspect ratio slightly, to offer significantly increased internal volume and bigger core internals.

Similarly, the Panther Clipper would occupy pretty much the limits of the large landing pad size and be in a similar size category as the Boa and Frigate. It would probably offer the largest cargo capacity in the game, but would be sluggish in both realspace and supercruise and offer terrible jump ranges to balance it all out and to prevent it just being the outright best freighter. I've also suggested before that they could add in a whole set of cat-named ships (Panther, Puma, Tiger, Lion, Lynx are all ships from FFE) under the Gupta Heavy Industries manufacturer, which would give us another trader-centric manufacturer now that Lakon is becoming the primary naval contractor of the Alliance.

The biggest issue I can see at the top end, both with some of these larger ships being introduced as well as in our current lineup to a certain degree, is where the Cutter fits into it all. At the moment, the Cutter is pretty much half a ship class above the other large ships in terms of capabilities and price but not anywhere near the likely capabilities of the Boa, Panther and Frigate (which would all be around in the region of 1000 tonnes of cargo), which would either leave the Imperials without a competitive top-end ship if the Cutter is left where it is as or to give the Imperials two very similar ships at the top end. FD need to decide whether the Cutter is meant to be comparable to the Corvette/Anaconda or if it is meant to be a step up from it, balancing the ship's capabilities and price as necessary whichever way it goes.

 

[Iskariot]

let's forget all about the copy & paste ships of old yes we have all seen them and not impressed.
Now it's time for something bigger...


keeping with two aspects from the days of the original and frontiers concept that never made it...so far...

It's time to bring in both the Boa & the long overdue Panther clipper, where have they gone???

Why,

Well why not, A bigger cargo transporter would be a welcome change to the mid level copy & paste that we only seem to get of late.

Boa, from the original Elite 1984 a larger than the Connie holding more cargo, would be the first place to start not combat focused as that's all we seem to get, but a dedicated cargo hauler.

Panther clipper, used to be as common as todays stating about space legs, the panther clipper, should have been here by now, it has dragged its bottom for a few years, unlike the dolphin that also took it's time to arrive.

So WHY are we still waiting for these ships, why are we not getting a good balance across the board for both trading, exploring, and end the combat pushed only game play for next season, 2019 should be about making Elite what it should be a multi verse of "Blazing your OWN way", and not having to push material to get that whopping big gun!!!.

Bring back the elite trading, exploring, Pirating fun that we used to know all those years ago, and with less material grind would be a welcome break.

What use are bigger ships, if bigger is all they are?

I am all for having the Panther Clipper in Elite Dangerous, but I hope it is only added when FDev can also add a new docking method for these large vessels.
If the Panther Clipper has to fit through the slot then it will just be another big ship and that would be pointless.

The Panther Clipper does not have to be twice as big as a Cutter, but I do not want it to be able to fit through the slot.
I also would like there to be new mechanics for big ships, like a modest shuttle that can dock with smaller stations.
One might use them to transport a few passengers and a bit of cargo to a small station, or one might pay off some fines or bounties.

And most of all: We need a solid npc ship crew mechanic !!!!!
We should not be able to fly ships like these on our own.
In previous games even the Python needed 7 crew, just to be able to take off. A new crew system could be a bit more flexible, but flying the bigger ships on your own and use them at maximum capacity should not be possible.

 

[Old Duck]

I would love a large exploration ship, and I'm not talking about the Anaconda. Actually, give us two - one posh like the Beluga but optimized for exploration, and one more "utilitarian" like the Type-9. I'm not suggesting copies of these two ships, but rather their general styles.

 

[Jarge]

Hmmm.. I'm in two minds myself. Yes I would love to get my hands on a dedicated heavy freighter with circa 2100 tonnes payload.

BUT . Can the economy support such a beast ? . I fear I would be left with hauling large qty - low value items such as Hydrogen Fuel , Water, Biowaste etc as these seem to be the only type of goods held in any decent amounts. A grind in itself !
I would naturally want to exploit the additional capacity for high value, high profit items such as Slaves or precious metals. I can already see that the stations would not hold such qtys in stock for long, and given the restock lag.... Also if you had lots of Cmdrs all hauling serious tonnage the impact to local economies would be interesting. I would certainly want a wing protecting me as I plied my trade as I doubt it would have the handling of a drunk slug and would be a gift to pirates.

The community goal thresholds would no doubt be nerfed upward and there could be a danger of these becoming uninviting to smaller cargo vessels with the big boys getting all the credits.. and I already know how quickly the local stations run dry.

Any new ship should [ IMHO ] have a purpose and place within the mechanics of the game, the recent 3 Alliance ships being a case in point. I own all 3 , but really is there any justification for all of them ?. A cut back asp..OK , an explorer...Sure , they sort of fill a niche, but 3 ?

If I am going to spend my wedge on a new , and presumably expensive ship, I would want some kind of genuine return in sustainable, worthwhile trading/missions , and not have it be an expensive bauble to leave in the garage and collect space dust with the others !

That said, large scale haulage between the bubble and Colonia....does have possibilities.

See you in the void.

 

[Arry]

Or park the ship outside, and use ship-launched shuttles to ferry cargo and fetch missions. For outfitting etc., add a select few planetary or orbital shipyards with huge landing pads. Probably easier than re-doing all the stations.

Actually, there's still quite a lot of space available on both large landing pads and the mailslot for the Boa and any potential Federal Frigate as they are both so much smaller than the Beluga and Cutter. The Beluga is 34% longer than the Anaconda, 112% wider and the T-10 is 23% taller than the Anaconda, for example. Even if the Boa were to retain the exact same aspect ratio as the Anaconda but just be 23% larger on each dimension, then it would overall give 85% volume than the Anaconda. Considering how the Anaconda has relatively mediocre internal space despite its size, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a ship with those increased dimensions to offer close to double the cargo capacity (plus larger core internals to match).

A similar case could be made for a Federal Frigate, expanding a Corvette-like design to the dimensions of the Beluga and the T-10, possibly including altering the aspect ratio slightly, to offer significantly increased internal volume and bigger core internals.

Similarly, the Panther Clipper would occupy pretty much the limits of the large landing pad size and be in a similar size category as the Boa and Frigate. It would probably offer the largest cargo capacity in the game, but would be sluggish in both realspace and supercruise and offer terrible jump ranges to balance it all out and to prevent it just being the outright best freighter. I've also suggested before that they could add in a whole set of cat-named ships (Panther, Puma, Tiger, Lion, Lynx are all ships from FFE) under the Gupta Heavy Industries manufacturer, which would give us another trader-centric manufacturer now that Lakon is becoming the primary naval contractor of the Alliance.

The biggest issue I can see at the top end, both with some of these larger ships being introduced as well as in our current lineup to a certain degree, is where the Cutter fits into it all. At the moment, the Cutter is pretty much half a ship class above the other large ships in terms of capabilities and price but not anywhere near the likely capabilities of the Boa, Panther and Frigate (which would all be around in the region of 1000 tonnes of cargo), which would either leave the Imperials without a competitive top-end ship if the Cutter is left where it is as or to give the Imperials two very similar ships at the top end. FD need to decide whether the Cutter is meant to be comparable to the Corvette/Anaconda or if it is meant to be a step up from it, balancing the ship's capabilities and price as necessary whichever way it goes.

Guys; I was being silly. Each time I go back to Cubeo; I see the solution, to my argument above.

The thread is basically about; boys toys. They can never be quite big enough.

 

[CMDR Iolair]

I'd like to see some data/figures on that then... do you have any or is it just a feeling you have?
If you have them lets see it an I'll retract my claim and bow down!

It was just a feeling ... so I just went and got the figures. Disappointingly, I appear to be wrong (or at least in the case of comparing Sidewinder, Hauler and Eagle).

It seems for each ship tested, the maximum reverse speed is 60% of the maximum forward speed.
And for each ship tested, the time to accelerate 0 to 100 m/s is 60% of the time to decelerate 100 to 0 m/s.
*And* for each ship tested, the maximum lateral or vertical speed is 80% of the maximum forward speed.
I'm rather disappointed :-( Ships should have different strength retros/laterals/verticals, according to their intended role.

 

[Daish]

Making larger ship would mean, having to make the mail slots larger across the whole Galaxy. Do you have any idea, just how mush work that would entail?

Not at all the mechanics are already there friend, with ship yards for the frigates all they have to do is what frontier do best copy & paste the yards in systems much like the largest ship to land on a port is the python, both clipper, and Boa could dock at the large frigate port easy as pye.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

It was just a feeling ... so I just went and got the figures. Disappointingly, I appear to be wrong (or at least in the case of comparing Sidewinder, Hauler and Eagle).

It seems for each ship tested, the maximum reverse speed is 60% of the maximum forward speed.
And for each ship tested, the time to accelerate 0 to 100 m/s is 60% of the time to decelerate 100 to 0 m/s.
*And* for each ship tested, the maximum lateral or vertical speed is 80% of the maximum forward speed.
I'm rather disappointed :-( Ships should have different strength retros/laterals/verticals, according to their intended role.

You are a thorough and honest man... credit to you,

I couldn't do it cos I'm in the black.


as an addendum, if ships had accel and decel in supercruise it would make pirating a positive joy in the right ships and a nightmare for the lumbering traders getting a warning and seeing the pirates closing hoping that the good guys can get there fast, but it ain't so, and I can't see it becoming so either.