Opinions on combat logging

Nobody is going to supply any useful evidence either way, it's just opinion based on personal experience. JasonBarron has taken the time to get to know some players that PvP, and s/he thinks all their friends are awesome. You have met some players too, and one of your criteria for thinking less of a player is that they don't play the same rules you do.

And of course each of you naturally puts more weight on your own assessment. None of this is a reason to quit playing, just try to avoid players of that type if you know they'll only annoy you. Or stop complaining about what others do that you don't like and be grateful when you find some common ground.

No you misunderstand. I'm not putting more credence in my own experience over others and my "feelings" are not colouring the discussion in any way. Neither am I trying to discredit an individual. Rather I am tackling the argument itself. I am tackling the cold hard facts of the matter that no metrics exist that can confirm or deny that "most PvP players are helpful".

It cannot be proven. Cold hard fact. Therefore the assertion that "most PvP players are helpful" is bull.

Most *might be* helpful. Who knows. But the assertion that "most are helpful", is Bull.

What I *can* comment on is that some of us - including me, I guess - are thinking more in terms of "inside the game", whereas others like JB are invoking some magical realm of outside game influences called "Discord".
They also make the telling distinction of "if you approach a PvP combat player for advice on PvP combat". Which ignores the fact that players like me have absolutely no interest whatsoever in PvP combat. Diddly.
Why on earth would I, or any player who shares my view, go searching, outside the game, for advice on PvP combat? I mean, really? Use some logical analysis here fellas. Exercise that grey muscle a bit more.

I could give you other reasons why it is highly likely that most PvP players are not helpful. This centres around the activity of PvP combat itself, where the players involved are more likely to be highly "competitive" individuals. Many PvP combat-centric players have even used that very same term, unprovoked, to describe themselves. Human nature dictates that the very competitive will most likely withhold information that gives them the competitive edge. It is therefore highly likely for these individuals to be less helpful than individuals of a less competitive nature. That's simple observation of basic human nature. It is a cold hard fact.

What I can't say is that this simple observation, this cold hard fact, *disproves* the original assertion of "most PvP players being helpful". It doesn't disprove it. I know. In cold hard fact land it doesn't. At least I am honest and cognisant of this. Unlike someone who is reaching with their wishful thinking to prove an assertion that cannot be proven here. An assertion that is, in cold hard fact land, bull.

Nothing against the individuals concerned. I'm all about tackling the subject matter itself.

Cheerz with beers, on a rainy Friday afternoon

Mark H
 
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If you have ever pulled the plug on your router or menu logged on another Cmdr you shouldn't be in Open play.

You're just lying to yourself about your abilities. You're an also ran, a figure of fun.

The insult about "abilities" and "also ran" and "figure of fun" has got me smirking all righteously.

I will decimate this train of thought by asking who would win in a PvP combat contest between:

1. *YOU*, flying a PvP outfitted, fighter vessel, that is engineered exclusively for PvP combat, and;

2. *YOU*, flying a non PvP outfitted, multi-role vessel, not engineered for PvP combat.

Of course number 1. would win. Convincingly.

That, of course, since both pilots possess equal skill, entirely removes "ability" from the whole equation, which trashes any comment or insult anyone might care to make against the "ability" of anyone who doesn't fly a competitive PvP combat vessel and renders the insult obsolete.

Then let's replace the *YOU* in number 1. with *YOU AND YOUR WING*, against just *YOU* in number 2.

Let us consider the outcome...


Yours Aye

Mark H
 
I think the point is you take your lessons like a man. And I kinda agree to be honest. It's about who you are, not how good you are.

No discussion about "taking your lessons like a man" would be complete without also considering the "man who is foisting a lesson onto others". Don't you think?

Neither is really very helpful.

Any thoughts on that?
 
No discussion about "taking your lessons like a man" would be complete without also considering the "man who is foisting a lesson onto others". Don't you think?

Neither is really very helpful.

Any thoughts on that?

I don't see it that way, not because it shouldn't be seen that way, it should, but I'm a realist. I prefer to analogise (is that a word?) it with the jungle. You don't go into the jungle and expect not to meet the occasional tiger, or possibly three tigers cooperating. Fortunately in elite, the tiger encounters aren't real life fatal. I guess I've come to accept it, and find it easy to justify my acceptance of it, because at the end of the day, in my life, it's a relatively trivial matter. I support a three strike system to reports of combat logging, or something like it, and more effective in game penalties for blatant griefing. But really, yeh, bottom line, you clicked open, take what's coming like a man. Fight your best fight, try to kill one of them, even if you're unarmed, If you know you won't escape at least try and ram then, try to make one of them combat log! But don't take the cowards way out. I live by those words myself and while I have no realistic expectation that others will reciprocate, I don't need them to, so that's fine. :) I see a combat log as a win, no salt from me, though I would report it, because I feel that's everyone's responsibility, especially those of us who pee and moan on the forum about it.
 
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I don't see it that way, not because it shouldn't be seen that way, it should, but I'm a realist. I prefer to analogise (is that a word?) it with the jungle. You don't go into the jungle and expect not to meet the occasional tiger, or possibly three tigers cooperating. Fortunately in elite, the tiger encounters aren't real life fatal. I guess I've come to accept it, and find it easy to justify my acceptance of it, because at the end of the day, in my life, it's a relatively trivial matter. I support a three strike system to reports of combat logging, or something like it, and more effective in game penalties for blatant griefing. But really, yeh, bottom line, you clicked open, take what's coming like a man. Fight your best fight, try to kill one of them, even if you're unarmed, If you know you won't escape at least try and ram then, try to make one of them combat log! But don't take the cowards way out. I live by those words myself and while I have no realistic expectation that others will reciprocate, I don't need them to, so that's fine. :) I see a combat log as a win, no salt from me, though I would report it, because I feel that's everyone's responsibility, especially those of us who pee and moan on the forum about it.

Totally cool with that.

I like analogies too.

If you're talking actual Combat Logging. With initial capitals. Then sure, report it.

The analogy is ok about tigers although a little bit incomplete.
Some hardy souls might venture into the jungle with weapons and stuff. Because, you know, they *enjoy* that kind of adventure. In fact, they want to go out looking for tigers to shoot. Then there are those who take it even further and want to hunt those that hunt the tigers. They want to *be* the tiger. This is all well and good. Sadly that excludes some others, because they have no real interest to be hunters in the first place.
So the Jungle Ranger has arranged it so that anyone being attacked can call SOS and be air lifted out by helicopter in 15 sec.
The Jungle Ranger thereby gets much more in the way of income, because his Jungle now caters to many more people.
Then, of course, we have those that want to *be* the tiger attacking the bunch who only came on the strict understand that a 15 sec rescue would save them from the tiger or those that want to *be* the tiger.

More income for the Jungle Ranger should mean that *everybody* wins. Not just those that want to *be* the tiger that makes the Jungle more problematic than it was when there were just tigers and no people.
 
No you misunderstand. I'm not putting more credence in my own experience over others and my "feelings" are not colouring the discussion in any way. Neither am I trying to discredit an individual. Rather I am tackling the argument itself. I am tackling the cold hard facts of the matter that no metrics exist that can confirm or deny that "most PvP players are helpful".

It cannot be proven. Cold hard fact. Therefore the assertion that "most PvP players are helpful" is bull.

Most *might be* helpful. Who knows. But the assertion that "most are helpful", is Bull.

What I *can* comment on is that some of us - including me, I guess - are thinking more in terms of "inside the game", whereas others like JB are invoking some magical realm of outside game influences called "Discord".
They also make the telling distinction of "if you approach a PvP combat player for advice on PvP combat". Which ignores the fact that players like me have absolutely no interest whatsoever in PvP combat. Diddly.
Why on earth would I, or any player who shares my view, go searching, outside the game, for advice on PvP combat? I mean, really? Use some logical analysis here fellas. Exercise that grey muscle a bit more.

I could give you other reasons why it is highly likely that most PvP players are not helpful. This centres around the activity of PvP combat itself, where the players involved are more likely to be highly "competitive" individuals. Many PvP combat-centric players have even used that very same term, unprovoked, to describe themselves. Human nature dictates that the very competitive will most likely withhold information that gives them the competitive edge. It is therefore highly likely for these individuals to be less helpful than individuals of a less competitive nature. That's simple observation of basic human nature. It is a cold hard fact.

What I can't say is that this simple observation, this cold hard fact, *disproves* the original assertion of "most PvP players being helpful". It doesn't disprove it. I know. In cold hard fact land it doesn't. At least I am honest and cognisant of this. Unlike someone who is reaching with their wishful thinking to prove an assertion that cannot be proven here. An assertion that is, in cold hard fact land, bull.

Nothing against the individuals concerned. I'm all about tackling the subject matter itself.

Cheerz with beers, on a rainy Friday afternoon

Mark H
You do realize that claiming something to be incorrect because it can't be proven is 'bull' itself, right?

Throughout history arguments have been made against and for things that were unable to be proven, until they were. I'm not saying your wrong either, just that declaring a statement wrong on the notion that it can't be proven is also fallacy.

That and if you haven't ever actually tried to converse with a pvp player after you encounter them, or avoid open and pvp altogether, that makes any arguement contrary to how helpful said players are moot.

Fair point about the use of 'most' (bantering semantics is a hobby of mine as well), so I shall amend:
Most pvp players I have encountered are quite helpful. Also, strangely enough, most are avid stoners.
 
Just for the record, my experiences with PvPers have also been mostly positive in both gameplay and any dialogue (be that in game or on the discords).
Maybe just a fluke, don't you think?
 
Maybe Frontier could rebind ctrl+shift+esc over with something like camera suite.

Oh wait, this game runs on windows. Damn that's inconvenient.

XD
 
combat logging it's a real problem ... but it remains a small problem. If the purpose of engaging in battle is to make your opponent disappear ... then it is not a problem. If the purpose of the battle is to damage the opponent financially then it is a problem.

In any case it is a marginal problem and certainly there are much more important things to deal with first.

The game is dying and not because of this small and limited problem.
 
As above I believe, it could maybe be less of a problem, if ships would just explode (visually) on CL. Would give some feeling of "giving up" / "hissing white flag" to the opponent.
 
I am not factually incorrect at all. You are reaching. A lot.

You are projecting.

Please tell me the steps you achieved to confirm, with positive evidence, that "MOST" Elite Dangerous PvP combat players even know of the existence of that Discord.

Yours Aye

Mark H

(I might add that I don't even know what Discord is. I see the word written occasionally, but have no idea what it is.)




Let me get this straight.

You clearly know nothing about the topic, and you are arguing with people who do?

That is pretty funny!
 
Here's a thought... Increase the timer, maybe even to 60-100s, but not front the last time the ship took damage, but from the last time they fired. Keeping it at 15s or even lower if they never returned fire at all. That way, people with zero interest in PvP get out quicker, while people who try to log when they find they are losing will have to tough it out.
 
Nobody is going to supply any useful evidence either way, it's just opinion based on personal experience. JasonBarron has taken the time to get to know some players that PvP, and s/he thinks all their friends are awesome. You have met some players too, and one of your criteria for thinking less of a player is that they don't play the same rules you do.

And of course each of you naturally puts more weight on your own assessment. None of this is a reason to quit playing, just try to avoid players of that type if you know they'll only annoy you. Or stop complaining about what others do that you don't like and be grateful when you find some common ground.



You can't compare the opinion of someone who has met probably 100s of PVPers with someone who has never really played PVP, or in fact hasn't even heard of Discord.

I'm certain Jason has met enough PVPers to come to reasonable and valid conclusions.

The rest of you are just making things up.
That you folks even participate in these conversations is really funny to me!
 
The rest of you are just making things up.
That you folks even participate in these conversations is really funny to me!

That's rather presumptuous don't you think?
Either you really believe everyone with a different opinion to you is lying, or else you're going out of your way to be condescending, if not outright insulting.

In any case, you, and Riverside are certainly right about one thing, and that is that it is not an argument that anyone can win. People here have strong opinions (and rightly so considering the topic), but none of us is going to change many (any?) minds. It's a hot topic, and it will live until the mods ban it outright. You continue it, Riverside does...and so do I. Everyone does!

It won't end and we'll never agree. I personally consider it a win when it doesn't spill over to other threads...

And I thought most cultures held necromancy to be wrong. Oh well.
 
That's rather presumptuous don't you think?
Either you really believe everyone with a different opinion to you is lying, or else you're going out of your way to be condescending, if not outright insulting.

In any case, you, and Riverside are certainly right about one thing, and that is that it is not an argument that anyone can win. People here have strong opinions (and rightly so considering the topic), but none of us is going to change many (any?) minds. It's a hot topic, and it will live until the mods ban it outright. You continue it, Riverside does...and so do I. Everyone does!

It won't end and we'll never agree. I personally consider it a win when it doesn't spill over to other threads...

And I thought most cultures held necromancy to be wrong. Oh well.


Ah no, if you haven't done an activity, you have no experience to draw upon.
The only possibility is making things up.

It's pretty simple and not presumptuous at all.
 
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