The Compromise to End All Compromises - Exploration Scanner Edition

[racer1]

I don't see a big issue with keeping existing behaviour along side the new. I wouldn't want any new features being added to the old scanner though. I can't see FD going with it myself.

For me this whole week of rampant speculation could have been avoided by FD waiting a week for the reveal and actually demoing it! It must be ready for demoing in some form or else I can't possibly see it dropping Q4.

 

[Sylow]

The game already has enough compromises. We don't need another one, especially not this one.
.
The proposed "compromise" would be an opt-out of new content and another heavy rock around the developers neck. Not only would they now have to maintain two different systems which have the same purpose, any new content would also be limited that it would have to fit into both different concepts of exploration. Considering that "honk and scoot" never really was so much of exploration, I personally don't see the big use of it.
.

 

[kilon]

The ADS was never the real issue IMO. We just need to agree on a comprise of what it can "reveal" quickly, then we can get into the DSS meat and potatoes of the real discovery fun and hope FD can deliver on making that fun (not hard considering the current DSS gameplay is a void of nothingness).

ADS was definitely the real issue the first time I used it, my reaction was

"Is this just it ? Really ? I must be doing something wrong. Maybe I broke it"

I later found that I did something wrong

I though that ADS stood for "Advanced Discover Scanner" but I found that was a typo

It actually stand for "Absence of Doing Something" , so now I use it expecting it to doing it nothing meaningful exploration wise and everything now makes sense.

 

[Leper Messiah]

ADS was definitely the real issue the first time I used it, my reaction was

"Is this just it ? Really ? I must be doing something wrong. Maybe I broke it"

I later found that I did something wrong

I though that ADS stood for "Advanced Discover Scanner" but I found that was a typo

It actually stand for "Absence of Doing Something" , so now I use it expecting it to doing it nothing meaningful exploration wise and everything now makes sense.

The "amount" of info was the problem not the game mechanic, it's the first simple step that should lead into more complex and meaningful gameplay...the DSS. Also, don't like it then don't buy it or use it, the choice was yours from the beginning.

 

[disorganise]

The derogatory and inflammatory tone is a bit disappointing tbh.

I think the core idea is sound, but propose some modification...

Having two sets of actual scanners feels unnecessary. There is no outfitting in the deep black, so options to change from one type to another become impossible. I'm guessing that's the intent - punish the explorers that wish to have the system map

I would sooner go the route of maintaining the two code paths, but in the single new ADS. When arriving into a system, you have the option of doing the current honk and receiving the system map *OR* the new honk and following the new radio twiddle method.
Choosing the old way will require flying towards the planet to get the material details etc, like today. Once the planet is scanned, you would *also* then receive the new 'anomaly detected' notification of the new system.
Choosing the new way is per the announcement, with the planet scan being possible without moving from the main star.
Once you have honked with one option or the other, you cannot change your mind for that system.

Selection of the honk type would be via firegroups, so it is easy to swap from one to the other. This allows you to mix it up, and honk scan your way to destinations like today, whilst also being able to full scan systems quickly for a change of pace. (I see this as a similar choice to setting turrets or gimbals to fixed ahead)

Regardles of the honk choice, the new gameplay from the replacment DSS remains the same - probe launching for POI location discovery.

"To allow for skilled play you can aim probes away from the planet, allowing them to arc around it, potentially letting you hit the surface on far side of the planet. If you aim too far away, the probe will fly right past and miss, but by using mass and size information displayed on the HUD you will be able to lob probes and get full coverage without having to fly around the planet."

reads to me like we're gonna have to be close enough to at least determine the planet is a sphere - not a wee dot. Especially the "get full coverage without having to fly around the planet" suggests to me that we're expected to be close enough for flying around the planet to be a consideration. I think we're gonna need to be a lot closer than is needed for the current DSS, but we'll see.

So taking from your OP it'll be more like
NEW SYSTEM BENEFITS:

1) infinite range
2) easier cherry picking
3) faster scanning with no travel times (detail scan and 1st discover tag)
4) engaging (hopefully)
Negative - use of probes will need you to fly out to the body anyway

OLD SYSTEM BENEFITS:

1) instant reveal of system map
2) easier identification of unique and intriguing system compositions (or fast triage to move on to next system)
3) faster probe launch since you're already there for the body scan to kick in
Negative - have to fly to the body to scan it

 

[quilvein]

PROPOSAL:

Much noise has been made about finding a compromise, but I say forget that noise. How about NO ONE compromises!! It is true, there is no real way to combine the systems that won't destroy the integrity of the either the Old or the New system, so we can only have one set or the other. But I don't see why we can't have both sets of scanners in the game. Hear me out: as long each set will only work with its paired scanner, eg New with New and Old with Old, but no mixing of Old ADS + New DSS (or New ADS + Old DSS), because the technologies are incompatible. Of course, both sets would still be able to launch probes.

I think I would actually be just fine with this because the new set has some rather serious advantages:

NEW SYSTEM BENEFITS:

1) infinite range
2) easier cherry picking
3) faster scanning with no travel times, and will allow for use of probes without necessarily increasing the time relative to the old system

OLD SYSTEM BENEFITS:

1) instant reveal of system map
2) you can still watch Netflix
3) will take FOREVER once you add probes to the old point+travel+wait mechanic, which gives you more time to watch Netflix per system

ANALYSIS:

If the diehard fans of the old ways want to hold onto their old ADS and old DSS combo why not let them? They'll be moving along like happy little snails. As long as they're happy who cares how much faster people with the new set collect high value tags?

But perhaps the best argument to made here is that Combat pilots and even miners have a seemingly infinite set of possible loadouts. But Explorers really only have one possible loadout. I know this is asking Frontier to create code for 2 new modules, but I have to ask: don't explorers deserve to have options too?

POSSIBLE ISSUES:

The issues I foresee (besides having two versions of the ADS/DSS mucking up the code):

How to give people in deep space the option of upgrading. This could be done in several ways: A popup dialog at 3.3 launch asking if they want to upgrade or keep the old set for their current ship. Or automatically upgrade the new system so people could try it, and then let people know that if they didn't like it, they could simply contact Customer Service to have their scanners reverted to 3.2. People will likely know by the end of Beta, so maybe an Opt Out form could be created as well.

Wings would have to be altered so that they only share Level 2 or Level 3 scans (ie DSS or basic scanned objects). Currently they share all Level 1 scan data (eg ADS honk data). So if you have people with different sets in the same wing you have infinite honk + infinite scan = massive exploit.

One other possible issue is based on an unknown: if the new USS discovery mechanic relies on the distribution filter to resolve them (which I suspect it might since they used the word "skill" to describe finding them), then people with the old set of ADS/DSS might have to keep using the old USS mechanic of bumping into them in SC, which will still be a valid way to find USS in 3.3 btw. Also, explorers aren't really running into USS very often anyway. I explored for 5 hours last week looking specifically just for USS and found a total of TWO, so this may be a non-issue for most people who want to hold onto the old set.

An excellent idea in my book although I think old should remain old, why give it probes?

The new system may probably be fine but as I read it it's not like previous upgrades where they have been for particular player interests, this one will affect every player not just explorers and could make it a mess for them. This is why I think Ziljan has got this right as those who don't explore in a big way such as traders, miners, factions, combat, powerplay and CG's etc won't have to play with the changes that explorers will, ultimately, force upon them. Surely this could be handled in outfitting with fitting an ADS system including the existing system map or fit an EDS (Exploration Discovery System/Scanner) for the whole new system as proposed.

I just wish Frontier or someone would look at the rest of the game first and give some idea of just how it will be affected.

 

[kilon]

The "amount" of info was the problem not the game mechanic, it's the first simple step that should lead into more complex and meaningful gameplay...the DSS. Also, don't like it then don't buy it or use it, the choice was yours from the beginning.

On that we can agree

 

[Taen]

I hope they keep what they have created but maybe sped it up a bit and give a "discovered by" percentage on the initial honk.

Thats what is needed. So people can see if it's been partially discovered or fully discovered. If the scanning is done quicker like having planets that orbit each other and planets and moons as a single signal, I can see that being acceptable to most. Yes you will not please everyone though.

I've never heard this one before. I like the idea of having a percentage discovered quite a lot!

 

[Ziljan]

I've never heard this one before. I like the idea of having a percentage discovered quite a lot!

They have something like this in the screenshots in the bottom left screen. But it seems to refer to probe mapped objects, not pre-discovered objects:

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I see fear of the unknown here.

We've not even used the system yet and it's already being refused, primarily by those that want the easy life to continue.

cake and eat it... and can I pick my cherries too!

 

[quilvein]

How so?



source:

Spoiler

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ation-Reveal?p=7010492&viewfull=1#post7010492

Think it through a little. Currently we can travel from station to station including planetary stations. Think of how now and how after the update. Travel to an engineer, say one we know well like Farseer for instance. We will still be able to find her I think but despite the amount of times we have been there we will not be able to ee the planets and moons around her that contain all that lovely Arsenic. It was suggested on another thread that if you want to see the system then you will have to map it with the new system first. These are systems/info that we have used for years, are we going to have to map them all again and will we keep access to everything we map and how do we see it?

In fairness it depends on 2 questions, will the Galaxy map remain for route purposes and what happens to the existing System map that we have currently have many bookmarks in? and so it goes. As I said, forget exploring for a moment and think of anything else you do in Elite. A starting point could be that if you are going exploring you are almost certainly going to engineer your ship. Now look at every step or action you are going to do and try to imagine that but using the FD proposed system and finding the required materials again.

Just prove me wrong please and I will be the happiest commander out there!

 

[quilvein]

Lots of assumptions here that neither of us can know for sure at this moment. I think these are detail questions that make more sense after release of beta so we see how this all pans out. Fear they could have forgotten something crucial? Be patient and tell them from a better informed position after playing the beta for a while.

Very true. Just bear in mind that what we get in beta is what we get in the release................usually!

 

[Chrystoph]

Lots of assumptions here that neither of us can know for sure at this moment. I think these are detail questions that make more sense after release of beta so we see how this all pans out. Fear they could have forgotten something crucial? Be patient and tell them from a better informed position after playing the beta for a while.

As was pointed out elsewhere, Beta is for tweaking and bug fix, not for soliciting project level input.

Beta falls under Step 4, not under steps 1 and 2.

The fact that we did not have the Focused Feedback for these elements and that no other community wide engagement occurred leads me to believe that this is either a special interest sop or that Frontier is going where they want to in spite of the expected reactions from the player base.

Given what I've seen thus far, my opinion is that this is a mistaken attempt to claim they are adding "content" by eliminating swoop-n-scoop/honk mechanics. Unfortunately, what it does is to move us back to 18th century astronomy using 34th century technology; I emphasize my point in that the new honk cannot even discover all of the stars in the system without the Mark I eyeball on the scope.

 

[Chrystoph]

Sorry to inject cold hard reality into your fantasy existence...

 

[Ziljan]

what it does is to move us back to 18th century astronomy using 34th century technology; I emphasize my point in that the new honk cannot even discover all of the stars in the system without the Mark I eyeball on the scope.

They had graviton detectors in the 18th century? Did they also have time machines? Because that would explain how they bypassed 2018 and therefore exist in an alternate timeline, which only YOU know about. Which means you just outed yourself as a cross dimensional time traveler... cue the men in black knocking on your door.

As for detecting stars, Frontier have already said they will be looking into possibly changing that, very likely to a more sensible "if you can see it you can probably scan it" approach.

 

[Chrystoph]

Scanner methodology is not the point as you obviously understand; scanner capability is taking a hit that doesn't make sense.

Since you want to go down that road, though, I find the fact that radio telescopy, which is used in the current day to examine objects hundreds of light years away, cannot tell me what is in the same star system 1,300 years from now to be... unlikely.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

No compromises!

The ADS is vastly OP and should've been nerfed a long time ago.

Scanner methodology is not the point as you obviously understand; scanner capability is taking a hit that doesn't make sense.

Since you want to go down that road, though, I find the fact that radio telescopy, which is used in the current day to examine objects hundreds of light years away, cannot tell me what is in the same star system 1,300 years from now to be... unlikely.

And yet we still keep finding new objects in our own star system.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

No compromises!

The ADS is vastly OP and should've been nerfed a long time ago.

You can always fit a BDS if you don't like it.

Demanding that features that other people like are removed simply because you don't want to have them, is unhelpful.

 

[Chrystoph]

Oh, this "what we have in 3300" argument again. If you only would realize what a nonsense that actually is. I could write a book about things that wouldn't happen in 3300 but are in Elite, it's ridiculous. Following that mantra, we wouldn't have a game at all by now. But the perfect ammunition for nitpickers, naysayers and non-players, I give you that!

Because the concept that existing technology continues to improve is nonsense...

We have terabyte or better super luminal communication, also known as telepresence, and yet, somehow, 1,300 years of technological development cannot reduce a radio telescope into part of a sensor suite that can scan a star system.

Oh, wait, sensors are just handwavium because mechanics in a game that claims to be founded in scientific principles wouldn't do that.

Umm...

Oh, Murdock, you either need to be less intelligent or more, this middel ground thing just makes for easy targets. Radio telescopy was mentioned specifically because of things that EMIT in radio frequencies, you know, the stars I mentioned in the sentance. The objects you are referring to, asteroids and such, are not radio emitters.

If you just want to say that it is Science Fantasy, have the courage of your convictions and do so. For me, I remain convinced that Frontier is just adding slog to the game for no result.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

You can always fit a BDS if you don't like it.

Demanding that features that other people like are removed simply because you don't want to have them, is unhelpful.

I'll say what I want thanks.
Even a majority can be wrong.

If the ADS didn't reveal all at the start, I'm not convinced that there would've been any complaints.
Laziness just made us used to it.

The existence of a lesser option, doesn't justify an OP one.