Ok well here's the thing: if 99% of dungeons contained a rabbit and two potatoes, the complaint should be about the fact that the dungeons contain a rabbit and two potatoes. The complaint should not be that the dungeons are a Time Wall. And that's the whole point. So far, people are used to gathering up rabbits and potatoes, and they're getting upset about the creation of dungeons because There's NO POSSIBLE WAY that the dungeons could ever contain anything other than a rabbit and two potatoes. Therefore we oppose the creation of the dungeons in the first place, which I think is incredibly short sighted.
News Chapter Four - Exploration Reveal
Ok well here's the thing: if 99% of dungeons contained a rabbit and two potatoes, the complaint should be about the fact that the dungeons contain a rabbit and two potatoes. The complaint should not be that the dungeons are a Time Wall. And that's the whole point. So far, people are used to gathering up rabbits and potatoes, and they're getting upset about the creation of dungeons because There's NO POSSIBLE WAY that the dungeons could ever contain anything other than a rabbit and two potatoes. Therefore we oppose the creation of the dungeons in the first place, which I think is incredibly short sighted.
All you're saying is that the new scanning system is gonna suck and be unfun. And if that turns out to be the case then, YEAH, I'm on your side in the sense that if something has to be an unfun, low-stakes meaningless CHORE, I'd rather do less of it. That being said, I HATE the current system, which is about as low-stakes and unfun as it gets. It is literally a timer. Not a "Time Wall," just a timer where you point a crosshair at something and wait X amount of seconds before you get your money. Terrible. I don't know why I've convinced myself that the new system is going to be better, but I guess between the vague description and my overactive imagination it sure SOUNDS better, and I want to give it a fair chance without hobbling it at the outset on the basis that maybe it will be an engaging process of discovery which employs skill, knowledge, and planning, plus maybe collaboration with wingmates, to produce something resembling an engaging play mechanic. You know, something you can do better or worse at, that you can improve at over time, that you can feel a sense of satisfaction for doing really really well.
But if we already get every piece of meaningful information instantaneously at the press of a button, like we do now, then there's not much room to create an engaging sense of discovery with the new system. So I'd rather that Frontier implement the whole thing as envisioned, and then if it turns out to be garbage we can agitate for some changes. But right now I don't think it's possible to build anything resembling a compelling exploration/scanning mechanic without rolling back the already established (PLACEHOLDER !!!!!) mechanic of "You get everything instantaneously for free."
Again, if the rough draft of the Legend of Zelda was "press start" ---> "Congratulations you saved the princess!," with intermediary content to be added later; I think it would be incredibly stupid for the playerbase to insist on the preservation of the initial condition of "press start" = "you win." There has to be some room for inserting obstacles, mechanics, etc; in between those two points otherwise it's gosh-darn impossible to build out the game at all.
I agree with the general sentiment of your post but there are an awful lot of systems, I don't want to spend much time establishing that there is nothing I'm interested in in each one. If the new system takes more than a few tens of seconds I'm probably going to just skip it until I reach whatever my destination is. This may be the intended result - we will actually have to explore to find anything at all.
I think this is what they want.
Real explorers. People who genuinely love flying from system to system in search of the unique.
Not the "honk, check system map, fire up FSD if nothing interesting" folks.
Sadly, I belong to the latter group because I know 95% of systems look somewhat similar to each other.
"Oh another Red Dwarf and the Seven Snow Whites".
Yeah. I couldn't hope to recall the number of 'ooh shiny' moments I've had, and I think it would be a great shame to lose what is such an important motivating factor in longer-range travelling - the distractions from what would, without those distractions, be quite a dull activity.
Most will just want to get to their destination, by the cheapest/fastest/easiest route and for them the new mechanism works just fine. But the galaxy is so big, and tagging systems (and seeing who tagged them) has become a significant part of exploration gameplay, and if I travel through a sector I want to be able to spot that same name cropping up, clearly some previous traveller has taken a similar path but hah! they missed that Herbig Ae/Be because they excluded unscoopables, what an amateur
I want that distraction. It's not all about the destination, it's not always all about the star systems themselves either. There's a bit of madness & camaraderie too, that I'd prefer to not lose.But the new system will increase the possibilities of finding the cool stuff that actually is already out there, as well as new stuff we don't know anything about yet, and I want that too. But I don't want it at any cost, there is a legacy that should not be discarded lightly.
Nope. That's your interpretation of a very selective misreading.
See… this is why you're having problems: you're talking about something completely different than what we're actually discussing with the time wall comment. Now, I could help clarify the difference, but I've done that already on numerous occasions and your rather hostile attitude has made me disinclined to be all that helpful. Instead, I'll just ask you to go back and actually read the things you commented on from the beginning to get the context.
I think you'll be surprised about what you find…
Nah, one has almost nothing to do with the other, and in large part because we can't get “every piece of meaningful information” instantaneously right now. What we get is the information needed to start making choices, which is something very different. You get agency with the current honk; you get none with the new one. You get no sense of discovery with either because that's not its role and function (and indeed, unless they actually start adding content or mechanics, chances are you won't get that at all). With a bit of luck, that might be covered by the probe mechanic, but that depends entirely on what's actually there to find.
It sounds amazing... But... I'm just worried about the extra screen affecting immersion, especially in VR.
Sounds yummy so far, but:
1. I agree with an earlier post which was that X may be fun a few times, but after 100, etc times not so much. So please (with sprinkles on top) consider exploration mechanics from the point of view that they may need to be done hundreds of times in a row and could get very grating if there is no variation.
2. My big request, it will be nice to have some shiny new tools but only if there are things to find. When I have gone well outside the bubble (say e.g. more than a few thousand light years) have generally found it as barren as the north pole - no USS, POS, debris, wrecks - not even an old sock! Need random and surprising content in the deep too. Doesn't need to be everywhere, just occasional and captivating.
1. I agree with an earlier post which was that X may be fun a few times, but after 100, etc times not so much. So please (with sprinkles on top) consider exploration mechanics from the point of view that they may need to be done hundreds of times in a row and could get very grating if there is no variation.
2. My big request, it will be nice to have some shiny new tools but only if there are things to find. When I have gone well outside the bubble (say e.g. more than a few thousand light years) have generally found it as barren as the north pole - no USS, POS, debris, wrecks - not even an old sock! Need random and surprising content in the deep too. Doesn't need to be everywhere, just occasional and captivating.
… to look for Klingons?
Yes, so much this^^^^.
The current ADS honk was fun to hear once. The second time I used it, I thought, "wait, this is it???". And the third time I was crestfallen, and turned around and went back to the bubble and sold my ADS and DSS.
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I had set myself the goal of doing most of the professions for at least a week, so I persevered. Didn't even have money for a DSS when I went exploring. The skill needed for parallax is highly overrated in my most humble of opinions.
It was only after I got enough money to buy the ADS and DSS I made my first multi 1000 LY trip out into the galaxy, caught the exploration bug and then I was hooked.
That would be me. I love flying from system to system in search of the unique.
That would be me as well. (except it's honk, scoop, fire up FSD, check system map, and abort if something interesting)
You have placed me in an existential conundrum where I am a real explorer and not a real explorer at the same time. I feel like a cat in a box.
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You're not a t̶r̶u̶e̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶s̶m̶a̶n̶ real explorer, if you don't fly out into the void, go uphill both ways, wear a blindfold, look for moving dots, and play a little game to slowly uncover the blindfold.
Only t̶r̶u̶e̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶s̶m̶e̶n̶ real explorers have a valid point of view here, so, how very dare you!
How else would you be getting the orrery map you were fantasising about?
No bodies (proposed honk) = no possibility of "in relation to". Ergo, you have to scan first.
I imagine that's going to be a balance between ease of use and complexity. If they want the mechanic to have longevity, then the signals need to be complex enough that there is at least some question of what you're looking at. However, the signal also needs to be able to give you a hint of the general class of objects you're looking at so you can quickly decide whether or not to move on to another system. There also needs to be curve balls thrown in to keep us on our toes and not get too dismissive of seemingly low value system that are hiding gems. That could come in the form of mapping results though, which hopefully isn't independent of the scanner results, so that they're connected and integral.
So yeah, even somewhat simple mechanics like the one they've described in the OP are very complicated to design properly. They may not get it perfectly right on the first try, but that's Ok. They do have a track record of somewhat perfectly dialing in far more complex mechanics like Combat and the BGS, so it can be done.
Fingers crossed here as well!! There definitely needs to be more granular level interaction with planets and POIs.
Agreed. Fortunately that's not how ED is implemented. It's more like "press start", "congratulations, you found a person "
Now you can decide whether to run away or go find out if this person is a princess, and then decide if you should save her.
That's the main difference of opinion regarding the proposed exploration "improvements".
To you (and many others), finding out where the planets are is the end. For me (and many others) it's just the beginning. Finding out there is some remote iceball somewhere doesn't fill me with any kind of joy or fulfillment whatsoever. Discovering and interacting with things on some remote iceball does.
While I (and many others) were hoping all year that content and mechanics would be added and expanded upon to what happens AFTER we locate the celestial bodies and proceed to actually explore them, FD thought it would be nicer to make the exploration "revamp" occur before the actual beginning, which is at the same time depressing and also genius, as it's the perfect way to tick the "we did the exploration revamp" box without actually adding anything to exploration.
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TBH, it doesn't really matter how the system is implemented if that's all the real change there is.
We need leader boards of records, and missions seeking out certain world's, personal narrative missions like "that HMC in system so and so you found 2 years ago, we've analysed it and it's quite unusual. Please go back and throw probes at it. Yes yes, 30kly is a long way to go, but these results look interesting"......some unique bacterial lifeform maybe. Which gets recorded and attributed to the commander.
That's how you make exploring more interesting and engaging in my opinion. By adding purpose beyond whatever self created goals you have. Let it *feel* like you are actually contributing to the galaxy knowledge. Let it then trigger CGs or further missions to collect samples and so on.
YMMV but that's the kind of thing I wanna see.
We need leader boards of records, and missions seeking out certain world's, personal narrative missions like "that HMC in system so and so you found 2 years ago, we've analysed it and it's quite unusual. Please go back and throw probes at it. Yes yes, 30kly is a long way to go, but these results look interesting"......some unique bacterial lifeform maybe. Which gets recorded and attributed to the commander.
That's how you make exploring more interesting and engaging in my opinion. By adding purpose beyond whatever self created goals you have. Let it *feel* like you are actually contributing to the galaxy knowledge. Let it then trigger CGs or further missions to collect samples and so on.
YMMV but that's the kind of thing I wanna see.
Oh, you mean that. I was more thinking of being in the bubble where we would have most systems already mapped or very easily use the nav beacon.
As to USS's in unexplored areas far from the bubble, yep exploring the system would be needed to see where they are in relation to the planets. No issues with that. Not that I would think that there would be many USS's anyway.
I imagine people who are not up to date with the coming changes might hold similar opinions when they discover the honk no longer works.
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If you take out the Community Goal bit (cos lets face it they are a bit naff at the best of times) and make it a more personal experience then yes this is the type of extension and change to Exploration that is needed. The point is you need to give a player interested in Exploration something interesting to do and ideally something linked to your progression or knowledge within the galaxy. Now a new scanning UI and mechanism might be a good way to access that experience BUT you also very much need that gameplay to be there one without the other doesn't work imho.