This is why I worry about the future of ED - it's FDev themselves

[Darth Ender]

Limiting BGS access is forcing into open.

We are just contract pilots in a galaxy sized galaxy, I'm fine with that. We can't all save the same princess, besides which shes got entire systems and billions of people at her command she doesn't need us.

Players can very easily influence the BGS.

​

I've played powerplay, it never struck me as a galactic domination thing where players could alter the destiny of humanity. People vie for control of systems sometimes win sometimes lose, the worlds keep turning its more politics than conquest.

The joined universe brings all platforms timezones and modes together into one game.

Also PVP is worse than useless at effecting the BGS as you are actively wasting time you could spend supporting a chosen faction.

​

I'm free to do what I want, the PMF I'm in is doing fine.

​

It only bothers people who don't like others being able to choose. I'll play whichever mode I like whenever I like, you don't have any input in that.

No. You pledged in poweplay maybe. You never played it if you think that. Entire populations of systems were decimated weekly. The amount of destruction in some battles over the expansion to a certain system completely overshadows any other battle done in the game. Yet you hear nothing of any of that. Because none of it mattered. Entire sectors should have fallen into anarchy with the loss of a power but that never happened. Why? the players had set all the right triggers...but the narrative was not impacted. If players had not been shackled by the narrative, then the bubble would be completely unrecognizable today, but it's exactly the same as it was when it was released. Despite even the changes to jump ranges that make it all look ridiculous.

Nothing in the game you do matters until fdev makes it matter. That alone makes the sandbox gameplay impotent. We're not talking about the viability of a single player making a difference in a galaxy. We're talking about hundreds of players destroying over a hundred thousand ships (literally) in the span of a few days not mattering. We get news stories about a station coming under attack all the time, but that's the narrative. Everything else is absolutely meaningless.

Yes, you can tip the bgs factions one way or the other, but that has almost no impact to the game. I dont have to care about which faction is in control in any system i go into. If i dont have to care about that, then why do you think being able to sway the particular factions matters ? You're giving it as an example of the power that players have on the game, but nobody cares. Your own example is an example that simply corroborates my statements.

If all you want to do is ride the wave, then the fact that you had nothing to do in the creation of the wave doesn't matter to you. But you can't pretend like that means you can do what you want. If a group of players got together and decided they wanted to roll over you and your wave, they wouldn't be able to. no matter how large that group is. You can't have your argument run both ways. Either you're free to do what you want, or you aren't. Fdev makes it very clear that they aren't interested in allowing players to do what they want. They allow players to interact with who they want. They allow you to do various things in whatever order you want. But when it comes to the shared universe, you can only do what they let you do. And the only they they let you do is flip minor factions around in systems. An activity that effectively means nothing in the game.

I know you enjoy this idea that i'm upset that you can play in solo and I can't stop you but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm stating that there would be a much better game and a happier playerbase if the modes existed but weren't a shared universe between them. I think the promise of a shared universe sounded great before the game was released but has failed to deliver. Players are giving up far more than they get back by it and it would be something that can begin to be solved very easily. Simply split the universes. Everyone still gets to play the modes they want whenever they want. The only difference is that the desires and needs of the modes wont undermine and compromise eachother.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I don't care about mac for the same reason I don't care about Betamax.

One is dead, the other is the company with the highest value as of 2018.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

While I am normally agreeing with the whole ED is in its death rattle type thing, the only thing I found true in OP post is that Frontier don't player their game or at least don't come across as playing the game especially when you look at the live streams... I could post countless examples of Frontier failing to play their own game in some of the most basic situations you could think of.

I've got some FSD booster flashbacks.

 

[Darth Ender]

One is dead, the other is the company with the highest value as of 2018.

to be fair though. Betamax was a better technology that had the wrong companies behind it.

Apple makes all their money on overpriced hardware designed for idiots and people who value status symbols by buying things that are overpriced.

Apple would have gone the same way as betamax if Microsoft didn't need to avoid being split in their monopoly fight against the government. Meh.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

to be fair though. Betamax was a better technology that had the wrong companies behind it.

Apple makes all their money on overpriced hardware designed for idiots and people who value status symbols by buying things that are overpriced.

Apple would have gone the same way as betamax if Microsoft didn't need to avoid being split in their monopoly fight against the government. Meh.

I do agree, Apple sucks.

 

[smiths121]

There used to be dozens of threads saying there should be no rebuy for PvP.

Dozens.

So they made CQC to cater to that exact “need”.

Tumbleweeds. Wind through empty wires.
A bit of corrugated iron creaking in the dusty midday sun.
A rusted out “Population” sign riddled with bullet holes.
“And over your cities, grass will grow”

3.0 C &P is the other recent example. Huge bounty levels for killing other Commanders, meaningful punishment outside of credits to effect the billionaires. All asked for by parts of the community, went through a forum review process. All you see these days is people moaning cos they have a 200Cr bounty for not being very good at the game, and have either min/max'd their FSD drive away or do not know where to get rid of their bounty. You can serioulsy go off a cmmunity of gamers, no wonder I am so anti big group - bad enough mixing here.

Simon

 

[Stigbob]

No. You pledged in poweplay maybe. You never played it if you think that. Entire populations of systems were decimated weekly. The amount of destruction in some battles over the expansion to a certain system completely overshadows any other battle done in the game. Yet you hear nothing of any of that. Because none of it mattered. Entire sectors should have fallen into anarchy with the loss of a power but that never happened. Why? the players had set all the right triggers...but the narrative was not impacted. If players had not been shackled by the narrative, then the bubble would be completely unrecognizable today, but it's exactly the same as it was when it was released. Despite even the changes to jump ranges that make it all look ridiculous.

Some leaflets got shifted and people accessed special things that's Powerplay. Not everyone is interested in ruling the universe, I have other games for that.

Nothing in the game you do matters until fdev makes it matter. That alone makes the sandbox gameplay impotent. We're not talking about the viability of a single player making a difference in a galaxy. We're talking about hundreds of players destroying over a hundred thousand ships (literally) in the span of a few days not mattering. We get news stories about a station coming under attack all the time, but that's the narrative. Everything else is absolutely meaningless.

Nope its really easy to effect the BGS, one player can send a faction into lockdown overnight if they know what they are doing.

Yes, you can tip the bgs factions one way or the other, but that has almost no impact to the game. I dont have to care about which faction is in control in any system i go into. If i dont have to care about that, then why do you think being able to sway the particular factions matters ? You're giving it as an example of the power that players have on the game, but nobody cares. Your own example is an example that simply corroborates my statements.

Because some players enjoy it (me included). Its a player choice thing, don't worry about it.

If all you want to do is ride the wave, then the fact that you had nothing to do in the creation of the wave doesn't matter to you. But you can't pretend like that means you can do what you want. If a group of players got together and decided they wanted to roll over you and your wave, they wouldn't be able to. no matter how large that group is. You can't have your argument run both ways. Either you're free to do what you want, or you aren't. Fdev makes it very clear that they aren't interested in allowing players to do what they want. They allow players to interact with who they want. They allow you to do various things in whatever order you want. But when it comes to the shared universe, you can only do what they let you do. And the only they they let you do is flip minor factions around in systems. An activity that effectively means nothing in the game.

I can already go where I like and do what I want. There are no restrictions.

I know you enjoy this idea that i'm upset that you can play in solo and I can't stop you but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm stating that there would be a much better game and a happier playerbase if the modes existed but weren't a shared universe between them. I think the promise of a shared universe sounded great before the game was released but has failed to deliver. Players are giving up far more than they get back by it and it would be something that can begin to be solved very easily. Simply split the universes. Everyone still gets to play the modes they want whenever they want. The only difference is that the desires and needs of the modes wont undermine and compromise eachother.

No, the sort of person who demands BGS access be restricted to their preferred mode is only interested in getting their own way. The last thing they have on their minds is improving things for everyone.

Choice is good, best you come to terms with it.

 

[Eymerich]

I am not worried about the future of ED. FDev know what they're doing.

That's the problem… unfortunatly

 

[Darth Ender]

Some leaflets got shifted and people accessed special things that's Powerplay. Not everyone is interested in ruling the universe, I have other games for that.



Nope its really easy to effect the BGS, one player can send a faction into lockdown overnight if they know what they are doing.



Because some players enjoy it (me included). Its a player choice thing, don't worry about it.



I can already go where I like and do what I want. There are no restrictions.



No, the sort of person who demands BGS access be restricted to their preferred mode is only interested in getting their own way. The last thing they have on their minds is improving things for everyone.

Choice is good, best you come to terms with it.

If you're going to talk to yourself and make up the other side of your argument, you're not going to convince anyone of anything.

I spell out examples where player actions would have completely re-shaped the bubble but it was ignored by fdev because it didn't fit their narrative. you start talking about leaflets.

You keep talking about flipping minor factions and putting them in various states. I already told you that nobody needs to care about that. You can visit any system and not have to care 1 iota about the faction in control or the state it is in. it doesn't change how the game is played to any kind of measurable degree outside of spreadsheets. Yet you keep using it as if it was something important. If it doesn't change how anyone plays, you can't use it as an example of players shaping the game in their sandbox. It's lip service at best.

Nobody is arguing over whether some players enjoy the activity (faction board flipping) or not. It's an argument over the objective point of it. If people dont have to alter their gameplay in the game due to it, then it's objectively pointless.

You can't go and do what you like where you like. You can only go where fdev lets you go, and you can only do what Fdev has allowed you to do. Can you get together with other players and topple governments? Can you organize a blockade of a system and keep it from doing whatever it is they were doing? Can you destroy an opposing player group? Can you even really destroy another player? Only if they allow. Can you do all the things you'd expect from a single player game? Can you mod it? Are you pulled into an immersive narrative that weaves a story around your character as events unfurl? Can you make the NPC's harder to match your skill level? Can you enable or disable certain features within the game (Turn off engineered weapons, increase piracy, decrease police response, etc etc)? And any number of other things that you'd have the potential to be able to do if single player wasn't connected to multiplayer?

All of those things are potentials that you are eliminating by compromising the game with a connected universe between the two modes. Not necessarily things I'd want, or that you'd want. But things that could be available and would make the game better for the respective playerbases but simply _CANT_ exist in the current state.

Now what do you gain by having a connected universe?

The only thing we've gained is having our items and income follow us between modes. That's the only thing i can think of that is a positive brought about by the connection so far. Everything else is a negative or limitation compared to them being separate.

What you're really afraid of is your pet mode not being considered "the canonical or relevant" mode since a separate universe means people will have to decide which universe they care about. The Fdev sanctioned narrative (which is what i'd expect Fdev to consider as canonical) or what the internet would follow, which is the multiplayer universe. It wouldn't matter to me which one people care about, but it seems to be what you care about since there's no other reason why a single player proponent would care about what other players are doing by the definition of the style of game they're preferring.

Nobody is denying choice. Nobody is denying you a background simulation that simulates even when you're not playing. The literal only change is the connection between the BGS's of the different modes. And the only argument i can see for keeping it is a selfish one where players are afraid that the internet wont care about the narrative single player universe as much as the non-canonical multiplayer sandbox one. Otherwise why would you care if it's connected. Whether it's other humans or some code making the bgs changes, it makes absolutely zero difference to solo.

 

[Blackcompany]

I do and it's impossible to please all customers world wide when selling an off the shelf product. There will ALWAYS be something a customer wants that our software doesn't do...or they want something so weird that I simply don't want to push that into our production software. Week in week out we add features, yet the feature list just gets bigger. Nature of the beast. I dare you to do better and write some enterprise software that is a) 100% bug free and b) contains every last feature that any customer could ever ask for in the next five years.


So one metric. Nice. I would say FDs accounts show a better picture.


In one sentence you make up a statement and in the next you question someone else's facts and then go on to make up more stuff.



So while some of these are bugs and some of them are mildly frustrating for about 10 seconds, even all combined doesn't warrant toys being thrown out of the pram.

This is hilarious, since fdev numbers actually show they'd be in the red if not for the cash injection from ten cent last year.

The game is a broken mess of RNG grind, wait walls and loading screens.

 

[Stigbob]

Nobody is denying choice. Nobody is denying you a background simulation that simulates even when you're not playing. The literal only change is the connection between the BGS's of the different modes. And the only argument i can see for keeping it is a selfish one where players are afraid that the internet wont care about the narrative single player universe as much as the non-canonical multiplayer sandbox one. Otherwise why would you care if it's connected. Whether it's other humans or some code making the bgs changes, it makes absolutely zero difference to solo.

I play the BGS all the time from whichever mode I want. I don't have a preferred one, they are all good in their own way. The rest of my PMF seems to be largely the same, always a variety of modes in use looking down my friends list. Yet we are all working on the same goals in the same game, no matter what platform timezone or mode we are in.

That's the game they sold and the one I bought. If you don't like it leave, that's how it is and the opportunity to oppose that passed years ago.

This is hilarious, since fdev numbers actually show they'd be in the red if not for the cash injection from ten cent last year.

The game is a broken mess of RNG grind, wait walls and loading screens.

How would you avoid loading screens in a galaxy sized game ?.

 

[Darth Ender]

The game you bought was sold with the promise of having both modes.

I'm arguing that with a connected universe we have been shown that what we get is a poor reflection of either mode of gameplay that does far more harm to the game and community than the alternative.

You don't even have to fight the argument on the examples I've given.

In what way has the connected universe given solo a better solo experience than you would have if your bgs was silo'd to your instance?

In what way has the connected universe made multiplayer better than it would be without its bgs being connected to solo/group?

Both of my arguments have been that it has directly harmed by inclusion of features and exclusion of others simply due to the requirement of the connected bgs. Feel free to offer some features in the game that are better because of it that would be worse without.

For someone so against being forced to have other players force them to change how they play, your arguments seem completely biased around your ability to manipulate the game for other people while being able to hide from any kind of response. Where as mine has been about making the game experience better for the largest amount of people instead of just accepting the status quo of constant bickering and impossible compromises.

 

[Stigbob]

The game you bought was sold with the promise of having both modes.

I'm arguing that with a connected universe we have been shown that what we get is a poor reflection of either mode of gameplay that does far more harm to the game and community than the alternative.

You don't even have to fight the argument on the examples I've given.

In what way has the connected universe given solo a better solo experience than you would have if your bgs was silo'd to your instance?

In what way has the connected universe made multiplayer better than it would be without its bgs being connected to solo/group?

Both of my arguments have been that it has directly harmed by inclusion of features and exclusion of others simply due to the requirement of the connected bgs. Feel free to offer some features in the game that are better because of it that would be worse without.

For someone so against being forced to have other players force them to change how they play, your arguments seem completely biased around your ability to manipulate the game for other people while being able to hide from any kind of response. Where as mine has been about making the game experience better for the largest amount of people instead of just accepting the status quo of constant bickering and impossible compromises.

I've already told you I don't have a preferred mode, your fear of solo underminers is showing.

PVP is the least effective way to counter them in the BGS as well, do something constructive like missions for influence instead. A desire for open only BGS just shows a lack of understanding of how the BGS actually works.

 

[Darth Ender]

I've already told you I don't have a preferred mode, your fear of solo underminers is showing.

PVP is the least effective way to counter them in the BGS as well, do something constructive like missions for influence instead. A desire for open only BGS just shows a lack of understanding of how the BGS actually works.

It's not a fear of undermining. It's an observation that everyone has had and was made painfully clear from the day powerplay was first introduced. Any kind of multiplayer gameplay that can be constructed within the current game mechanics is easily undermined by untouchable players in other modes. It goes both ways obviously, but when you reverse the argument, you tend to not get the same cost.

Your dependence on the BGS being how players can fight off undermining is laughably weak. It completely assumes that the players in other modes care about the bgs changes you're doing to them as much as what you would be doing to the other players. That's hardly ever the case. So if the cost is much less for one group, how is that better gameplay? I'm not talking about credit cost, I'm talking about time, emotional, and in immersion. If I dont care what you do to the BGS, but i know you do, and I sit in a mode that's not yours, what can you do to stop me? What can you do to keep my activities from interfering with yours? Nothing. It works both ways, if you happen to be a solo player who likes the BGS flipping, how can you hope to do as much activity as a group of players who would potentially be active 24/7? We see the complaining happening _ALL_THE_TIME_ on both sides of the mode equation. For what? For a connected universe that offers nothing beneficial other than knowing that someone else might see your name associated with a planet/star. That's not worth the limitations we've seen. Disconnected, the modes could at least have the opportunity to achieve their potentials. Connected they will continue to be what the game has been.. frustratingly incomplete.

edit: and I'm not talking about ideals either. Nobody is expecting perfect instancing in the hypothetical multiplayer game in order for it to be preferrable to how things are currently. It just has to be better. If the game makes the random choice to not instance a couple players together in a location, that's fine. That's preferable to allowing a player to choose not to in that game-mode. All i'm concerned with is that the game can be better separate for everyone than it can be and has been connected.

 

[Kubicide]

Reading comments about the future of ED, one comment stood out like a sore thumb for me:

Obviously we don't know what it was, or what the resistance was, but it's been known for a long time that what a large amount of the community wants, and what FDev thinks they want (or thinks they'll appreciate), are sometimes light years apart.

You are right. This has been a problem since release, and even leading up to release back in 2014. It's been holding the game back and things would be much better if they understood what the customers really wanted and expected.

 

[Brrokk]

You are right. This has been a problem since release, and even leading up to release back in 2014. It's been holding the game back and things would be much better if they understood what the customers really wanted and expected.

Who are "the customers"? This customer wants and expects a version of the long-running Elite franchise and is mostly satisfied with the one we have. (If I wasn't satisfied I'd play something else).

 

[Patrick_68000]

FDev are doing there best to try and keep its Cmdr's happy, the problem is, we are so many and all play the game in a different way so our priorities and wants are in there thousands. Most game developers use development staff that do not play the game so they don't become blinkered in their own views for the future content, however, I would expect they do have some players that are quite proficient at it and are in fact adding to the development, hence the changes in some of the content to come.

I personally feel the future of ED is ok as long as FDev start to pay attention to fixing the bugs in the game. The new changes that are coming are huge and will have a great impact on the game adding to the atmosphere and enjoyment thereby keeping Cmdr's happy for the next few months until they find problems with it and the complaints start coming in for FDev to have a look at it.

Overall I enjoy my time on ED even without the upcoming changes coming as there is so much to do and see, I have thousands of hours in game play and still have not seen or done everything. The Future of ED is looking good and the game is changing for the better in my eyes and as long as the bug fixing start to take precedence the complaints will reduce.

This is just my own view of the future of already the best space game by far out there.

Fly safe Cmdr's
o7

A good vision for the future

 

[WR3ND]

While I loosely share some of the same concerns as the OP, at this point I've more or less given up on compelling gameplay "progression." To me that more or less plateaued back in 3301 and tapered out in 3302 and 3303.

Sure, I'd like to do some more Engineering, for example, but it really doesn't suit my play style as an independent Commander in the Pilots Federation, preferring to play as a survivalist, adventurer, and explorer in the game.

These days I mostly just want to have fun messing with and mucking around in my spaceships in a cool sci-fi galactic sim. When intended "gameplay" seems like it might get in the way of that, that's when I tend to get more concerned with the direction that the game is heading in.

 

[Stigbob]

It's not a fear of undermining. It's an observation that everyone has had and was made painfully clear from the day powerplay was first introduced. Any kind of multiplayer gameplay that can be constructed within the current game mechanics is easily undermined by untouchable players in other modes. It goes both ways obviously, but when you reverse the argument, you tend to not get the same cost.

Everyone may be something of an exaggeration there.

They are not untouchable fight them via the BGS. PVP is totally ineffective at that and wastes time you could spend usefully.

Your dependence on the BGS being how players can fight off undermining is laughably weak. It completely assumes that the players in other modes care about the bgs changes you're doing to them as much as what you would be doing to the other players. That's hardly ever the case. So if the cost is much less for one group, how is that better gameplay? I'm not talking about credit cost, I'm talking about time, emotional, and in immersion. If I dont care what you do to the BGS, but i know you do, and I sit in a mode that's not yours, what can you do to stop me? What can you do to keep my activities from interfering with yours? Nothing. It works both ways, if you happen to be a solo player who likes the BGS flipping, how can you hope to do as much activity as a group of players who would potentially be active 24/7? We see the complaining happening _ALL_THE_TIME_ on both sides of the mode equation. For what? For a connected universe that offers nothing beneficial other than knowing that someone else might see your name associated with a planet/star. That's not worth the limitations we've seen. Disconnected, the modes could at least have the opportunity to achieve their potentials. Connected they will continue to be what the game has been.. frustratingly incomplete.

Players who don't care about BGS changes are not playing the BGS.

It's not always about attacking, support your chosen faction.

Mode changes would not have any effect on this mythical group of 24/7 players. They outnumber you and are outfighting you, you need to counter them via the BGS. Force them into open they still outfight and outnumber you so again no gain no point.

edit: and I'm not talking about ideals either. Nobody is expecting perfect instancing in the hypothetical multiplayer game in order for it to be preferrable to how things are currently. It just has to be better. If the game makes the random choice to not instance a couple players together in a location, that's fine. That's preferable to allowing a player to choose not to in that game-mode. All i'm concerned with is that the game can be better separate for everyone than it can be and has been connected.

You are wrong. That's why this argument has spent four years getting your suggestions absolutely nowhere.

Change your attitude to the game, as you cant change the game.

 

[Gully Foyle]

Don't Worry Op no one else is

It was simply a cost vs. reward decision from FDev to stop supporting macOS. Understandable from a business point of view.

All the technical stuff was/is just a "distraction" to make it easier for the customers to accept the decision. A lot of things suddenly become possible if the market is big enough - in the case of games on macOS the market is really small.

Completely off topic: It's highly interesting to see the development in mobile gaming and what advancements in computational and graphics power the state of the art smartphones have. I wonder at what point the smartphones will become the main gaming device even for games like Elite Dangerous.

Tencent(FD shareholder) is the largest Chinese mobile game company .....