This is why I worry about the future of ED - it's FDev themselves

[krylite]

FD has to go about improvements and changes to the game gradually. The main sticker is the game and its infrastructure is on the bleeding edge of scope and gameplay compromise possible. To do and enable all the individual players' various wishes for the game would require a project on a level of a DoD initiative. The tech isn't just there for an instant holodeck entire universe world yet. Until CIG-land , DualUni, or some other party that purports to do that really get there, FD's ED is the leading edge and recent developments have shown a welcome new commitment to expanding on the already excellent game.

Stigbob, and now Eagleboy are "paid shills"? What a farce. They are just two of the most rational voices on this forum currently overwhelmed and tainted by those who have too much fun on the trolling bandwagon and FDev pinata whacking conveying a false image that the game is doom/dead/&dying. Frontier and FD have delivered an excellent product for the price. Even with a lot of free addon and development post Horizons. I don't know what "business 101" imaginary world is being referred to, but Frontier have certainly excelled in the business dept. in the real world so much that a number of venture and hedge funds ( who have probably also done professional financial analysis of the success of Frontier & ED) have become major shareholders. They know ED is delivered value to a consumer segment, and not some underhanded marketing ploy ponzi like CIG-land & SC.

"go play another game" , of course Stigbob is right on point to a particular FD-bashing troll who has already been infamous for doing so regularly. There's not much more to say to someone who condemns FD and the game like that to ludicrous levels. edit: "complaining is better sport"^, exactly.

 

[Tarman]

I don't understand how there's so many people that think this game is medicore and boring, yet they play it and complain about it on the forums. Some don't even play anymore, since complaining is better sport.

That's probably one of my favourite bits about the forum. Baffling isn't it? I don't even have this much time to spend on things I actually like.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

That's probably one of my favourite bits about the forum. Baffling isn't it? I don't even have this much time to spend on things I actually like.

Yup it's strange. By the way I'm not trying to complain-shame. I absolutely believe that people should complain about things that dissatisfy them. Just with this game in particular, the amount of people that complain and play, the large ratio. Seems Elite must be a bit addictive, since usually in other games people will just move on to something else.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

There's nothing I hate more than people who've made a game that I really enjoy playing.

Even worse if I've spent thousands of hours enjoying it.

Do you mine - CqC - powerplay - Thargoids - multicrew - REGULARLY?

Or is it just pew pew, CG's, some exploration and trading to pay for all of it?

Thought so.

 

[Tarman]

Yup it's strange. By the way I'm not trying to complain-shame. I absolutely believe that people should complain about things that dissatisfy them. Just with this game in particular, the amount of people that complain and play, the large ratio. Seems Elite must be a bit addictive, since usually in other games people will just move on to something else.

I learned not to do this during my time with MWO. I was a founder for that game, which went basically in the complete opposite direction of what I wanted. I ranted quite angrily for a bit; then I remembered I had a Steam account and 4 Tb of HDD space, and everything became much better.

Bonus prize for me, the MWO devs finally got around to making the game I wanted in the first place (and they wanted too but couldn't make at the time for reasons), and I should be able to play it next year. If I'd waited around on the forums being bitter about it for all that time I doubt I'd even want to play the new offering when it comes out, because I'd be far too crispy from years of ranting.

 

[Sadistic Intentions]

So many times in so many games I've seen sections of the player base complaining that there is to much grind or this is too hard, or gimmeh, gimmeh, gimmeh.

Almost without exception whenever the game in question's developers give in to this complaining and give the vocal few what they want it is only a short matter of time before the same complainers are whining that the game is too easy or/and there is no end game content.

Having played Asherons Call back in '99 I can tell you that there is no grind in ED. ZERO! It is already ridiculously easy to obtain whatever our little hearts desire in next to no time at all.

This is most certainly the age of entitlement and instant gratification and what amuses me is that these same people, after whining until things get dumbed down to elementary level for them will then go onto facebook or similar and brag and show off their so called acheivements.

Smart game developers always read the communities input, but rarely or never give in to their whining.

Flame on and I like salt. Salt makes things tasty! [big grin] hehe

 

[Sadistic Intentions]

You don't have to worry about ED's future - it doesn't have any. After whatever mediocrity dressed up as "exciting" and "new" "content" drops in Q4 it will be maintenance mode until they drop whatever excuse for paid "content" in a couple of years so that LEP wouldn't be an outright scam and they will simply call it a day until such time when they decide they can't be bothered to copy-paste CGs every week any more and run the servers in general.

I wouldn't spend ANY money or invest huge amounts of time in anticipation of any substantial changes or new content, because there aren't going to be any.

I seriously doubt the future is anywhere near as gloomy as you suggest but even if it was a lot worse, many of us have had thousands of hours of enjoyment for a pittance of a cost.
ED has so far been one of the best value games I've played in over 20 years of online gaming.
[up]
.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

But these "hard questions" are undisputed, I guess even by Eagleboy! I'm really curious what you're trying to imply with the sheer existence of these questions that no one knows anything about yet btw. Is this some sort of "meta-conspiracy" that I just don't get? As in the accusation being already the judgement? Even a 'hidden' accusation in this case that's pushing it to unknown levels of ridiculousness...

I don't follow?

Someone said that the players were "pushing hard" on FDev about certain topics - Eagleboy in his usual way - said

You don't have data to make such claims. FD has. So I will go with their decisions thank you.

So he IS disputing them.

and my reply of - "but it's open knowledge that people were asking some hard questions about things, things FDev couldn't directly answer and had to leave the room to look it up" because ObAnt stated that in his vid, and he was IN THE ROOM when it happened" - firsthand experience as seen with his own eyes and ears.

Now if that isn't good enough evidence that players were "pushing hard" [to FDev] then I don't know what other version of reality you might be referring to, but it's not the same as what ObAnt has stated to be a fact and while lately I think he's got a little too cozy with FDev for my taste, I'll not accuse him of being a liar, openly or otherwise, because he's shown no evidence of that whereas eagleboy most definitely has.

How eagleboy thinks he can claim "you have no data" is just beyond my scope of understanding - and hence my "you are a paid shill" because that's about the only reason I can think of for a person to post such a thing in the face of evidence.

[video=youtube;Lvcnx6-0GhA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvcnx6-0GhA[/video]

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Nice smokescreen. I know what your assignment is. Making people who point out shills seem nuts so the whole conspiracy can go on in the open since whistleblowers will have zero credibility. That's how to cloak and dagger.
#tinfoilageddon

Shhh! you forgot the secret sign.

Seriously though - I just think when someone says "you got no proof" and proof is standing right next to them, blood all over them, smoking gun in hand, then either they are a paid shill, or a complete nutter who's grasp on reality is even more tenous than my own.

I chose the former, because despite what I may think about his views on ED and his often ridiculously fanboi statements, Cmdr Eagleboy seems like an otherwise nice chap. I've never seen him swear, or harsh language, even in the face of some of my more spectacular rants (which are actually a necessary evil Tarman - it's a release I need when people say stupid sh.. and my passion compels me to reply - it's also less painful than self-harming).

Seems to me he just wants the entire community to "just get along" and I honestly do respect that.

I can honestly say if I met him I'd buy him a beer or three, I'd even talk ED stuff, as long as he left the extreme fanboi stuff at home.

No this isn't a double triple bluff, I honestly do respect how he conducts himself in the forum, something many of us could learn from, including me.

(just don't tell him - he'll think I've gone soft)

 

[Rafe Zetter]

But these "hard questions" are undisputed, I guess even by Eagleboy! I'm really curious what you're trying to imply with the sheer existence of these questions that no one knows anything about yet btw. Is this some sort of "meta-conspiracy" that I just don't get? As in the accusation being already the judgement? Even a 'hidden' accusation in this case that's pushing it to unknown levels of ridiculousness...

Sorry I don't think I actually replied to you properly before - what I'm implying is that FDev weren't giving the expected answers to "hard questions".

People don't generally "push hard / not make it easy for them" (ObAnts words) if they are hearing what they expected to hear within reasonable expectations, considering they were invited at FDev's expense to see a showcase of "stuffz" by FDev.

It may be that the questions were about what comes AFTER Q4, and FDev were evasive, only giving partial information - despite all those in the room being contractually under an NDA - thus FDev would have been free to leak a few morsels of information about actual upcoming content IN DEVELOPMENT, unless they didn't trust the people in the room to maintain that NDA, which just isn't cool.

Or maybe FDev just said "we have plans" and left it at that - which is as vague as it gets (and par for the course from them) and just infuriating to travel to FDev's HQ (possibly time off work etc) and get only small amounts of information about stuff that's just around the corner anyway, and be no wiser about the longer term development of the game.

I'll be honest if I had taken time away from work to be there, and got vague answers and little more than "maybe's", I'd have walked out and told them they were "wasting my time" to thier collective faces, but I'm bolshy like that, I don't like being treated for a fool, which is why I get so narked in the forum.

The players have been asking, nay BEGGING for some sort of roadmap and FDev have flatly refused at all turns, even despite announcing to great fanfare a year or more ago "we are going to be more open about stuff" - I guess the joke is on us, because they never actually specified WHEN they were going to be "more open".

It just begs the question (another possible) do they even have one at all - or is it all knee-jerk reactionary developing, based on what they think is the biggest fire of the moment they need to deal with?

Time will tell.

 

[Stigbob]

I'm done with you. join Stigbob.

@Stigbob (even though you're ignored) I would absolutely expect the DEVELOPER of a product to be a bloody master, because if they don't know every single aspect, and have dedicated as many IF NOT MORE hours into it's application that the players, how on earth can they be questioned and give answers with any beleiveable level of accuracy?

I get you're upset that ED jilted you at the altar in 2014, but you should try to move on with your life. ED just doesn't love you anymore and isn't coming back. Take the wedding dress off and clear away the feast in Havisham hall, its starting to smell.

Say what you will about Chris Roberts, but he knows his game inside out - when he does LIVE "10 for the chairman" question and answers, I've NEVER ONCE in the YEARS he's been doing them had to say "excuse me - I just have to leave the room to get that information for you" which ObAnt said happened REPEATEDLY during the 6 hour presentation, which was PLANNED (lol what a joke) by FDev to give. FDev PLANNED the visit yet couldn't directly answer quite a few of the questions posed to them.

Of course not he just makes it all up on the spot, so there is no actual information to verify. That's the advantage of not having a working product.

 

[znôrt]

"hard questions"

since i cannot sleep, i'll share my (expert!) view on these hard questions and on some reveals that ed&will did slip on the livestream and may have gone unnoticed to the untrained listener.

so we were told our 17 heroes were attended by some staff, iirc about 6 people, ed and will among them.
we were also told that the staff (and the team) transpired real passion for the game.
we were also told that some of the staff had repeatedly to excuse themselves to ask additional info around to answer specific questions the ambassadors made.
we were also told that will was very busy writing down notes.
we were told that frontier had been highly sensitive to the feedback about the new exploration reveal.

well, all this doesn't add up, at least not unless the content they were shown was in a very inmature, unfinished state. else it just doesn't make sense that 6 specifically chosen representatives 'passionate' about the game can't answer several questions posed live by a bunch of players about exciting(tm) new content they are just been invited to see for the first time. either the guests have really privileged and analytical brains, or they were making really stupid questions, or there was nobody in the room that had given a half serious read to the feedback, or the demo was just very superficial, or the hosts had little clue about those aspects and were not really that passionate, or those aspects hadn't even been considered by frontier at all until that point. same goes for the note taking. there must be quite some loose ends in a demo if you have to take notes about stuff to check or sort out later, that's more common in a working meeting, or in demos of very crude material or that somehow go wrong. yes, taking 'some' note does convey the message that you care, but if you invite some people to show them work and have to take a lot of notes about your own work it just means your work has still a lot left to sort out. you do not take notes about what you already know you have left to do.

or some of what we were told is simply not ... really ... true?

what all this means is left as a silent exercise for the reader.
answer, as always, in the spoiler

Spoiler

jr'er qbbzrq!

 

[Stigbob]

what all this means is left as a silent exercise for the reader.

You tinfoil hat is on way too tight.

 

[znôrt]

You are basically reducing Frontier to a service company including 'game design on demand'. You know nothing, because such a concept simply can't work.

i agree with the gist of your post but game design on demand is a thing. actually, frontier have been working 'for hire' for most of their history. of course that doesn't mean sucking out the design from a disorganized crowd, and i guess in each project they had varying implication in the design and specifications, from 2.8 to 100+ depending on the client, but yeah, games can be and are developed on demand. at the end of the day, games are software.

another thing are games with open development plans and counting on active input from the playerbase. there are several examples of that too, with varying degrees of success. of course that's complicated, it does require very commited communities, and the developer has always the last word. then it's also not always about letting players dictate the design or features, but about adapting sensibly to player reactions.

what strikes me a bit is you describing elite as suffering from too much player input. this is a recurrent meme around here but imo mostly false, and only applies to very specific and secondary aspects. e.g. ship transfers, weapon balancing, mission payouts. i don't know of any core aspect of elite that traces back to player demand if we except the very early design discussion phase (and i'm not really sure that corresponds very much to the final game). e.g. rumor has it that frontier asked the community if they would prefer a subscription based server approach, or rather not. i don't know if they actually cited p2p as an alternative, but i doubt the playerbase was made aware of the consequences and compromises of such a decision. so the question 'do you want to pay monthly or not' might have been a tainted one. apart from that initial era and some minor aspects, most of the content and core aspects after that i've seen literally come out of the blue and as a (not always happy) surprise to the playerbase.

then again player driven design can be quite elastic: players will demand it all, even contradicting stuff. you pick as you wish from that list and can still say you have pleased the playerbase, even though you have only taken part of it into account, and the game's 'face and edges' are still on you

 

[Brrokk]

I seriously doubt the future is anywhere near as gloomy as you suggest but even if it was a lot worse, many of us have had thousands of hours of enjoyment for a pittance of a cost.
ED has so far been one of the best value games I've played in over 20 years of online gaming.
[up]
.

That.

 

[Eymerich]

FD has to go about improvements and changes to the game gradually. The main sticker is the game and its infrastructure is on the bleeding edge of scope and gameplay compromise possible. To do and enable all the individual players' various wishes for the game would require a project on a level of a DoD initiative. The tech isn't just there for an instant holodeck entire universe world yet. Until CIG-land , DualUni, or some other party that purports to do that really get there, FD's ED is the leading edge and recent developments have shown a welcome new commitment to expanding on the already excellent game.

Stigbob, and now Eagleboy are "paid shills"? What a farce. They are just two of the most rational voices on this forum currently overwhelmed and tainted by those who have too much fun on the trolling bandwagon and FDev pinata whacking conveying a false image that the game is doom/dead/&dying. Frontier and FD have delivered an excellent product for the price. Even with a lot of free addon and development post Horizons. I don't know what "business 101" imaginary world is being referred to, but Frontier have certainly excelled in the business dept. in the real world so much that a number of venture and hedge funds ( who have probably also done professional financial analysis of the success of Frontier & ED) have become major shareholders. They know ED is delivered value to a consumer segment, and not some underhanded marketing ploy ponzi like CIG-land & SC.

"go play another game" , of course Stigbob is right on point to a particular FD-bashing troll who has already been infamous for doing so regularly. There's not much more to say to someone who condemns FD and the game like that to ludicrous levels. edit: "complaining is better sport"^, exactly.

Ahahahahahahahahahahah….

 

[Gully Foyle]

I seriously doubt the future is anywhere near as gloomy as you suggest but even if it was a lot worse, many of us have had thousands of hours of enjoyment for a pittance of a cost.
ED has so far been one of the best value games I've played in over 20 years of online gaming.
[up]
.

Shhhhhh!
That's a secret!
HSM (happy silent majority)

 

[Eukanuba23]

Do you mine - CqC - powerplay - Thargoids - multicrew - REGULARLY?

Or is it just pew pew, CG's, some exploration and trading to pay for all of it?

Thought so.

You are incorrect. Even if you were correct, it wouldn't counter my point.

How many games have more than 40 hours gameplay? How many have more than even 25 hours? Not that many.

To get to the point where you even notice what Elite is missing you need hundreds of hours of gameplay.

I'm not saying the game couldn't be better: of course it could, in many ways. I just think that a little perspective might help some of the people on these forums. So many of the arguments can be boiled down to, "I've lost interest in this game after 2000 hours".

Any developer that can keep interest in a game for that amount of play time should be applauded, or at the very least not treated like crap and insulted from here to eternity.

 

[Jimbodiah]

perhaps they'd have some understanding of the frustrations people have when it can take a dozen hours of play to recoup the money spent on one cutter repair after one combat mission that didn't even offer a strong reward in the first place, or cmdr's who want a higher variety in missions offered because they're bored of seeing the same old things every mission board..

Agree with your assesment of FDev skills at playing their own game. But why would you take a Cutter on a combat mission, WHY??!?!?!?!!?!?!?

To get to the point where you even notice what Elite is missing you need hundreds of hours of gameplay.

This is kind of the point with this game... There is so much grinding in every single aspect that when you get through grinding you find out that was all there is to the game. You keep at it because there has to be something at the end, but you find out there isn't.

 

[Eukanuba23]

This is kind of the point with this game... There is so much grinding in every single aspect that when you get through grinding you find out that was all there is to the game. You keep at it because there has to be something at the end, but you find out there isn't.

I'm still a relatively new player so I can't speak with much authority on this subject. However, I've not done any grinding. Admittedly, I've only got one piece of engineered kit and I've got no idea what a Guardian is, but my interest is being held by a combination of missions from the boards, and things that I decide to try to achieve.

Along the way, I'm picking up materials and so on. At some point soon I'll probably decide that I'll go and see another one of the engineers who's messaged me. But there's no rush, and if it turns out that I have to spend fifty hours repeating a boring task then I won't do it.