Hardware & Technical High-end HOTAS & control options?

[who?]

What are the best joystick and throttle options for ED? Happy to mix throttle & stick from different manufacturers (or even, different grips and bases).

Currently I have a Warthog pair. Very solid, but not without its flaws:

- Stiction issues on the stick: Especially notable when you pull back on the stick, then slowly release. It doesn't return smoothly to centre, but moves, then gets stuck, then jumps the rest of the way. I was able to improve this by opening it up, sanding and re-greasing the ball with Lewmar gear grease, but it's not the easiest. Plus, since re-assembling I've been unable to get it precisely calibrated, it still rolls very very slightly to the left.

- Faulty button on throttle: Red button on the throttle lever started failing not long after buying. Stops working, then starts firing randomly. Took it to repair shop who couldn't see anything wrong, but still not working.

- Throttle died after ~18 months. Hadn't been used in a while, tried turning on the PC and throttle was dead. Had to get an (out of warranty) logic board replacement from TM.

- Thumbstick 'sticky' on joystick. I use that stick for navigating around the UI, and sometimes it fails to re-centre causing it to scroll like crazy so I have to push it back to centre.

In terms of design, it's great though I wish the throttle unit had more buttons (and possible wheels/knobs) instead of being very switch-heavy; it'd be better suited to ED.

I've been looking at combining the VKB Gunfighter Pro joystick, with the VPC throttle. Does anyone have experience of these, for comparison? There's also the VKB TECS throttle, though I don't know if that's out yet. I like the look of it (big 'n' chunky) though it seems to have fewer controls on it.

Also, does anyone know long delivery times are? I know with the smaller OEMs, it can take months (it certainly was with the MFG Crosswind pedals).

And for extra nerdiness (no, I'm not a 13 year old boy. Honest!!) Has anyone tried a korfx force feedback vest? I don't even know if I'd use it.. I'd prefer something like a Buttkicker, but on a 1st floor apartment with wooden floors that's not an option!

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I have a warthog throttle and for ED, it's a terrible throttle.
Not at all suited for quick and maxing outputs.

It's more suitable for sims, where 100% throttle output is not something you need often, and if you did push that far for long, your engines will blow up.

Elite is comparably arcade.
It's 100% on one axis or input and very rarely between.

A more generic option is probably better.
The virpil is an option, heck I have one on order but been waiting for over two months now and just filed a support request on what's going on there. After they moved the webstore I can't even login and check.
If it's not in transit already I'm thinking of cancelling.
The VKB I'm not sure that is out yet either and when it does.
I wouldn't expect any change in how they operate in batches like MFG.

Currently I am using a virpil t-50 with cosmo-sim cam and the light springs.
The center position sensitivity is as good as I think anything can be.
I do not need any deadzones or curves with this stick.
And I mostly now use it to fly helicopters in DCS.
No stiction.
For throttle I have a ch pro, and the warthog unit which is working as intended but intended use is very slim outside of flying the warthog in dcs.
I also have the Crosswinds for rudder control.

I still use the ch for elite.
But the pots on that are a bit noisy almost, so noisy it has nearly killed me in DCS a few times.
But the short flat travel, and myriad of easy buttons and hats and analog stick for thrusters is to nice to give up.

An option would be the TWCS throttle that is sold separately and in the thrustmaster 16000m HOTAS set.

Personally at the moment I'm getting tired of waiting for the virpil throttle and am exploring how to make my own.
Well actually I'm intending to diy my own helicopter collective.

You can buy those, by the cheapest I have seen is $900 without shipping and tax..
A hall sensor and a magnet is $3.

How hard could it be?
Probably very.
But here we go.

As for the vest..
I'm dubious.
I would much rather just go for a buttkicker or transducer setup.
I have used the latter, buttkicker is just one of the brands doing bass transducers.
If you reduce contact between the chair and floor, like soft carpet or thick rubber mat. Or both.
It really should not bother the neighbours.

I have experimented with transducers in my home cinema setup and it's mostly just a matter of tuning.
And indeed they can be good fun. And even with a pair rather small ones they could push my recliner across the floor like an old cell phone.
While I was sitting in it.
And we where talking about 200 pounds of an almost 40 year old and a 100 pounds of chair..

 

[Bill Clement]

TorTorden, I now have coffee all over the darn place, stop being so funny, immediately! [haha]

Who?- I'm still using an X-55 Rhino throttle with my Gunfighter. If Saitek ever start selling them individually I might even buy a replacement (rewiring the thing is a pita!). The new ones (X-56s) claim to have fixed the old one's reliability problems, so you might not even have to repair or replace a new one every couple of years.

The Rhino is very 'arcady' (is that even a real word? :S). It's got a gazillion buttons, hats, switches and axes. It's happy going from zero to full throttle and back, quick as you like, repeatedly. This is helped enormously by the tensioner, which doesn't. The thing is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard! The throttle is very loose. In spite of that, it's reasonably accurate and will stay in place as long as you like.

It's a lovely bit of kit, I was properly gutted when mine gave out at around the three year mark...[sour]

...and, like I said, it's a nightmare to rewire.

I'm really impressed with the Gunfighter, so much so that I think I'll buy their throttle when it finally comes out. With VKBs legendary speed and efficiency that should be some time next year(ish)! Maybe the European shower will have sorted out their ordering process by then!

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Virpil promises to ship my order this week.
And I do want it..

But there is certainly no doubt in my mind VKB is good stuff.
And if I remember correctly they wanted their throttle to support optional extra button boxes. Which could always come in handy

Yeah this thing looks good...

http://forum.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2880

 

[who?]

Very much appreciate the feedback!

The main problem with the Warthog throttle for me is the lack of buttons. For the throttling, it's a fairly basic usage in my case: full throttle, or middle of blue-zone, or zero. It's a bit more varied when driving the SRV on low-G ice worlds, where you do need a bit of throttle discipline. Plus it's awkward when doing the roll forwards-backwards-forwards to scoop up materials in the SRV.

I've tried finding some use in ED for the split throttle, but can't think of any. (Sometimes, I think I use games to play with my gadgets, rather than the other way around!)

From what I've read, Virpil is better than VKB in terms of 'prompt' shipping. I do see you can reserve the Gunfighter Pro from mid-October again, for December delivery. I don't know how accurate the estimates are.

What's the build quality like on the MongoosT-50 or Gunfighter grips? They're both plastic, is that correct?

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I can only speak of the virpil.
And yes they are plastic, but a very sturdy and high grade plastic, I would say same grade as the CH gear or a notch higher.
And I would expect the ch plastic would survive getting run over by a buss.
Certain parts from what I gather on the Vkb are metallic, like the brake lever.

Some would prefer the VKB for this, but if you are applying anywhere near enough force to break the virpil handle, which I find anything but flaky, you are applying 100x more force than what is needed for full activation.

In elite for instance I use that for deploy/retract hardpoints, it's a nice and long tactile motion.
So when I deploy it's because I mean it.

I find it very very odd to use metal on a control stick, even in actual planes these are mostly plastic or before then carved wood.
Even though while wearing gloves, at certain altitudes the air temperature outside would be below -60c.
If something where to go wrong and cockpit temp drops grabbing a metallic surface at those temps could cause severe injury.

Just using a petrol pump at -15c is something I truly loathe to do unless I got thick gloves.

So that for instance thrustmaster using metal in the warthog is purely marketing.

Take for instance the Crosswinds. Their made of high density composite wood.
At first I raised an eyebrow at that. But when I had my hands on them. They where as solid as anything.
But vastly different from metal and to a lesser degree plastic.
The wood is warmer.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

And as I typed that virpil has shipped my throttle.

Interesting they do so 30 hours after I start a support ticket inquiring.


Guess I need to go start building my proper pit now or something....

 

[Bill Clement]

Very much appreciate the feedback!

The main problem with the Warthog throttle for me is the lack of buttons. For the throttling, it's a fairly basic usage in my case: full throttle, or middle of blue-zone, or zero. It's a bit more varied when driving the SRV on low-G ice worlds, where you do need a bit of throttle discipline. Plus it's awkward when doing the roll forwards-backwards-forwards to scoop up materials in the SRV.

I've tried finding some use in ED for the split throttle, but can't think of any. (Sometimes, I think I use games to play with my gadgets, rather than the other way around!)

From what I've read, Virpil is better than VKB in terms of 'prompt' shipping. I do see you can reserve the Gunfighter Pro from mid-October again, for December delivery. I don't know how accurate the estimates are.

What's the build quality like on the MongoosT-50 or Gunfighter grips? They're both plastic, is that correct?

The build quality on the Gunfighter is exceptional. All load bearing components are metal, there are an ample supply of spare springs (they'll wear out eventually) and the Pro even comes with spare buttons for each of the five way hats, just in case you decide that you don't want a hat in a particular position. The grip is high quality impact plastic, the three position flip trigger and the brake lever/pinkie trigger are both metal, the base, grip connection and the s-stick extension are all metal.
The thing cost a fortune, but they haven't cut any corners that I can see.

Mine is almost brand new, just under five months old. After my Rhino giving out on me I'm a bit wary of making unequivocal statements about any controller. It looks and feels beautiful right now, but for the price I think it'll have to last at least five years in decent working order to qualify as a 'well built' controller. I have a decade old Saitek force feedback joystick that's pretty much as good as the day I bought it. If it matches that then what feels like a massive expense right now will have been a bit of a bargain!

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I was before toying, planning, on a dual stick setup from virpil.

And at the moment, since I now have both a t50 grip and the constellation delta on the way.
I would only need the second gimbal.
Getting a warbrd gimbal for left/center stick would be sensible.

The less sensible option would be to order a Gunfighter pro...

 

[who?]

I find it very very odd to use metal on a control stick, even in actual planes these are mostly plastic or before then carved wood.
Even though while wearing gloves, at certain altitudes the air temperature outside would be below -60c.
If something where to go wrong and cockpit temp drops grabbing a metallic surface at those temps could cause severe injury.

Just using a petrol pump at -15c is something I truly loathe to do unless I got thick gloves.

So that for instance thrustmaster using metal in the warthog is purely marketing.

Hah. In fairness I live somewhere very temperate (south-west Ireland) so we get those temperatures perhaps once a century. Though I have noticed in mid-winter, it can be a bit uncomfortable gripping the stick at the start of a session.

It's probably more a personal thing - given we're flying ships the size of airliners/cruise ships, I like the controls to be big 'n' heavy. It feels all wrong to me if they're lightweight and with minimal resistance; even if they're still strong and sturdy.

I do find it odd that the Warthog grip is very sturdy metal, but the ball ("gimbal"?) is plastic. If anything, shouldn't it be the other way around?

Take for instance the Crosswinds. Their made of high density composite wood.
At first I raised an eyebrow at that. But when I had my hands on them. They where as solid as anything.
But vastly different from metal and to a lesser degree plastic.
The wood is warmer.

Aha! Is that what they're made of? I couldn't figure it out. It didn't have the coldness of metal but didn't feel like plastic either. That's one mystery solved.

Given that I'm a noob when it comes to pedals (or, indeed, joysticks) can you tell me: is the 'travel distance' in the Crosswind pedals normal? I've found it quite short - I'd have expected more distance between centred and maximum 'deflection'.

Also, is there any way of locking the 'yaw' effect in place, and just using the toe brakes as driving pedals. That to me would make a lot of sense, if playing both driving, and flight sims.

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Milan is apparently from a family line of furniture makers so he went with a material that he knows intimately and has the tools to shape he says it is about 3% weaker than cut aluminium. I believe him.

As for temps I live in Norway.
So I expect everything to be frozen by next month and stay that way until April most likely.

I have seen injuries from just simply grabbing a metal rod at -15 or -20c. Not pleasant.
Metal has many great benefits but there many cases where it might not be the wisest choice.
Mostly, you would be ok if you did this, but conditions could occur, like a wet or moist hand.
Like drop your keys in the snow, and after retrieving them, and grab a nearby hand rail getting up.

But this is all semantically moot.
We tend to have a normal 20c room temp so for flightstick it is as suitable as any other material.

Unless of course your pit gets delegated to an unheated garage during a Norwegian winter...

I don't personally know of a feature to block the swaying motion on the Crosswinds, but I'm certain you could design some chocks if you want.

But I would much rather recommend using racing pedals.
No doubt the Crosswinds are the better quality product, but for racing I would still prefer my g29's pedals. And most wheels has similar pedals included.
I find rudder pedals as unsuited for driving as I find driving pedals unsuited for yaw control but that is my personal opinion.

 

[who?]

The build quality on the Gunfighter is exceptional. All load bearing components are metal, there are an ample supply of spare springs (they'll wear out eventually) and the Pro even comes with spare buttons for each of the five way hats, just in case you decide that you don't want a hat in a particular position. The grip is high quality impact plastic, the three position flip trigger and the brake lever/pinkie trigger are both metal, the base, grip connection and the s-stick extension are all metal.

Sounds good. From what I can see - although the MongoosT-50 and Gunfighter have similar designs, the Pro has a lot more controls (I'm one of these people who couldn't possibly have too many buttons/knobs/switches/dials).

Very tempted now to go for the Gunfighter Pro and Virpil throttle combo. Only problem is - you can't even reserve either of them at the moment. Le sigh....

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Sounds good. From what I can see - although the MongoosT-50 and Gunfighter have similar designs, the Pro has a lot more controls (I'm one of these people who couldn't possibly have too many buttons/knobs/switches/dials).

Very tempted now to go for the Gunfighter Pro and Virpil throttle combo. Only problem is - you can't even reserve either of them at the moment. Le sigh....

After looking at this:

I can see where Virpil saved some dosh, especially on the grip.
I thought it was just the one top hat that was analog, but it's both the top, and the POV, as well as many of where the t-50 has 2-way hats the VKB uses 5-way hats.

Yeah, that isn't a small difference alright..
In fact the virpil goose, 'only' has 5 buttons, 1 2-way, 2 4-way, the 8-way POV which I only use as a 4-way, the foldable trigger, and the dual stage regular trigger.
I am thinking mostly due to reasons of cost, and the t-50 grip was first announced as an option grip for the wharthog, and could there not really exceed the electronics found in that base, apart from the analog brake lever the t-50 maps 1:1 input wise to the hog.

So it seems that eventually my cockpit setup will consist of my current T50 gimbal and grips in a center config, a right hand VKB.
The crosswind pedals, and both the warthog and virpil throttle..

And more I think about it the more possible the collective build seems.
Still waiting for some parts, and I need to get a soldering iron and some bit's and bobs.
And of course, learn to solder.

Last time I tried any soldering, it wasn't for electrics but an introductory plumbing class and we where using propane flame some 18 years ago.
How hard could it be ?

 

[who?]

And more I think about it the more possible the collective build seems.
Still waiting for some parts, and I need to get a soldering iron and some bit's and bobs.
And of course, learn to solder.

Last time I tried any soldering, it wasn't for electrics but an introductory plumbing class and we where using propane flame some 18 years ago.
How hard could it be ?

I'm really starting to worry about your safety.

Between your couch vibrating across the room thanks to the transducers, your skin sticking to metal components due to the sub-zero temperatures and now the risk of injury/explosion due to soldering/propane..

I never knew simulators could be so dangerous.

 

[DD_Crash]

How hard could it be ?

You will find out (easy peasy )

 

[who?]

FYI, the Virpil throttle is back "in stock" as of today, on the EU store.

Just bought one within minutes of the notification. Immediately have regrets. Am I a fool? How much did I just spend on a games controller? #GuiltIntensifies

 

[TorTorden_VR]

FYI, the Virpil throttle is back "in stock" as of today, on the EU store.

Just bought one within minutes of the notification. Immediately have regrets. Am I a fool? How much did I just spend on a games controller? #GuiltIntensifies

Hmm, their web servers seems a little sluggish, could be what's going on..

As for the throttle I'm in the process of setting mine up.

One thing to keep in mind, ED can only use 32 buttons from any one device, leaving most of the lower end of the buttons and encoders on the virpil unresponsive.

It's a directx limitation so yeah.

All buttons hats, and axis on the handles do work, abut those already amount to 21 of those 32 buttons, you do get the grid of 8 buttons right below which should see you sorted quite nicely if you think about it.

DCS on the other hand does not have this limitation, and using the mode selector the virpil can send something like 96 distinct button presses..

Heck, I can't even get the EU store to load.

 

[who?]

Hmm, their web servers seems a little sluggish, could be what's going on..

As for the throttle I'm in the process of setting mine up.

One thing to keep in mind, ED can only use 32 buttons from any one device, leaving most of the lower end of the buttons and encoders on the virpil unresponsive.

It's a directx limitation so yeah.

All buttons hats, and axis on the handles do work, abut those already amount to 21 of those 32 buttons, you do get the grid of 8 buttons right below which should see you sorted quite nicely if you think about it.

DCS on the other hand does not have this limitation, and using the mode selector the virpil can send something like 96 distinct button presses..

Heck, I can't even get the EU store to load.

Yeah, I started the purchase within a few minutes of the email notification; and even then it was really sluggish.

Thanks for the heads-up about the button limitation! Bummer. I presume there's no way of re-assigning which buttons can be used (e.g. if I didn't need all 8 buttons, but did want some of the knobs at the bottom).

 

[TorTorden_VR]

You can remap actually using the configurator software.
But an encoder is just like a set of regular buttons.

Only use I would see for it in Elite would be for instance the sensor zoom.

But that I could just put on the scrolling axis you have on the grip instead.

 

[who?]

You can remap actually using the configurator software.
But an encoder is just like a set of regular buttons.

Only use I would see for it in Elite would be for instance the sensor zoom.

But that I could just put on the scrolling axis you have on the grip instead.

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to do. One for sensor zoom, one for panning along the new sensor spectrum etc.

Ideally - no idea if this is possible - I could map the grid of 8 buttons to keypresses, and then use the knobs as part of the set of 32.