Combat Logging, and the Terms of Service

[Spudmuffin]

Hi CMDRs,

So, this is a question more geared for any actual Frontier employees. Since I cannot find precise or even updated information on the concern.

As the title suggests, it is about combat logging and whether or not it is against the Terms of Service, thus a bannable offense. In fact, the only stipulation I can find is when the logger uses something like ALT+F4 or some other way to kill the application to quickly exit the game. This, I get. I understand that, and that is not what I'm concerned with.

My concern is the combat logging from the SAVE AND EXIT with the 15-second cooldown. This is a function built into the game. That means an employee at Frontier took the time to code this. It had to go through in-house Quality & Assurance. It had to be approved by someone else. It has been years since the game has come out. If this feature is the bannable offense of Combat Logging, it should not exist. That is not an exploit. That is an intentional mechanic of the game.

Proof of this being considered the bannable combat logging would be greatly appreciated. And if it is, even more appreciated, would be removing the mechanic from the Save & Exit mechanic. Otherwise, the PvPers can stop whining about this. Thanks.

 

[Braandlin]

Pretty sure that frontier have explicitly commented that exiting via the save and exit and through the countdown timer is acceptable and this does not constitute combat logging.

 

[Ian Phillips]

SAVE AND EXIT with the 15-second cooldown via the menu is perfectly fine. I use it every time I log out of the game.

If FD were to ban everyone who used that method of leaving the game, why then, there would soon be no-one left playing.

Edit.
Who is saying that this is a bannable offence, and what are their reasons? Because I have never heard of a more daft idea yet! (and there have been a few really dumb ideas posted over the years)

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sandro's stated opinion:

Hello Commanders!

To clarify: the official stance on exiting the game via the menu, at any point, is that it is legitimate. I suspect at some point we may increase the "in danger" countdown, but for now you just have to wait fifteen seconds.

However, we can't speak for how other Commanders view such actions.

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Combat Logging;

When one leaves a log in their pants during combat

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Alt F4 is a shortcut that brings the menu exit, with the timer. Ctrl-shift-escape is a Windows shortcut to display the task manager.

Several engineers and economists at FDev labs led an extensive study on QA monkeys and found 15 sec was the sweet spot where 97.2 % of the time, the timer couldnt be exploited to exit the game at a gracefulness rating of less than 7 milliSandros (bear in mind, it's both a relative and logarythmic scale).

So combat logging is a shadowbannable offense that will shadowsend you to the fabled shadowserver. That's pretty much a less crowded Elite's server where they tried to patch instancing issues, and it's a lot more stable, but a lot less multiplayer. So beware, combat loggers, shadowsupport is shadowinvestigating.

 

[Kaltern]

Sounds legit.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Sandro's stated opinion:

This. I feel using it to escape danger is weak, lame and sad. But it is allowed, no doubt. I hope the timer is increased, or reset when danger is taken.

 

[Spudmuffin]

sluetelbos,

I don't doubt that many people do view it as weak, lame and sad.

But which is weaker, lamer and sadder? I like to think fully engineered PvPers targetting unshielded, full cargo racked haulers is significantly weaker, lamer and sadder. Mostly because the "v" in PvP means "versus" which kind of implies there is a fight, meaning fighting chance. There is no fighting chance. The only thing I can do is submit, charge the FSD and hope me hull holds out against fully engineered weapons. its faster to just save&exit log, and swap to solo for a bit, rather than lose whatever the haul is worth, plus the fines associated with having to abandon failed cargo missions, plus rebuy.

It stacks up quick and isn't worth being another kill tally on someone looking for easy ganks. I get the name of the game is "dangerous" but there is a great distinction between dangerous and targeted assault. I could go into it, but I feel no matter what I say, it's going to be countered with "its a legit playstyle", which, yes, but so is save & exit logging if I feel the need to. I won't log the first encounter but if the same player is after me, I'll log the second time and hide in solo/private til the weekend is over.

That said, don't want combat loggers? Don't shoot first. If a player interdicting me engages me before my FSD is fully charged, demanding cargo, I'll hand over the cargo. much cheaper than rebuy. But I'm not going to sit and be cannon fodder just so someone can help themselves feel better, while I'm grinding for credits.

I'll play my way, you play yours, and deal with the consequences of such actions.


At any rate, thank you all for the quick responses. That said, I don't intend on logging every single chance I can. Have only done it once and told a wing in discord and they 'd all over me saying its a bannable offense, but I assumed the Save & Exit with the 15 second timer was being counted as "combat logging" which they said it did and violated the ToS.

o7 CMDRs

 

[DaggerSnake]

So let’s define “combat”.

Two to tango rule?

 

[Tarman]

sluetelbos,

I don't doubt that many people do view it as weak, lame and sad.

But which is weaker, lamer and sadder? I like to think fully engineered PvPers targetting unshielded, full cargo racked haulers is significantly weaker, lamer and sadder. Mostly because the "v" in PvP means "versus" which kind of implies there is a fight, meaning fighting chance. There is no fighting chance. The only thing I can do is submit, charge the FSD and hope me hull holds out against fully engineered weapons. its faster to just save&exit log, and swap to solo for a bit, rather than lose whatever the haul is worth, plus the fines associated with having to abandon failed cargo missions, plus rebuy.

It stacks up quick and isn't worth being another kill tally on someone looking for easy ganks. I get the name of the game is "dangerous" but there is a great distinction between dangerous and targeted assault. I could go into it, but I feel no matter what I say, it's going to be countered with "its a legit playstyle", which, yes, but so is save & exit logging if I feel the need to. I won't log the first encounter but if the same player is after me, I'll log the second time and hide in solo/private til the weekend is over.

That said, don't want combat loggers? Don't shoot first. If a player interdicting me engages me before my FSD is fully charged, demanding cargo, I'll hand over the cargo. much cheaper than rebuy. But I'm not going to sit and be cannon fodder just so someone can help themselves feel better, while I'm grinding for credits.

I'll play my way, you play yours, and deal with the consequences of such actions.


At any rate, thank you all for the quick responses. That said, I don't intend on logging every single chance I can. Have only done it once and told a wing in discord and they 'd all over me saying its a bannable offense, but I assumed the Save & Exit with the 15 second timer was being counted as "combat logging" which they said it did and violated the ToS.

o7 CMDRs

IDK, in my own playbook they're fairly equally sad, but not overly sad on either count as it's all Pretend Spaceman to me.

Attacking someone with no retaliatory consequences is legal but pretty weaksauce; but so is fleeing out of the game with the quit button to avoid pretend adversity. I don't consider gankers to be anything but severe environmental effects tho, which is not a viewpoint shared by all so ymmv.

I think if people were getting killed by purely environmental effects the level of upset at game setbacks would be at a lower volume. Throw another live player in there, as the dealer of what would be the same hit to the pocketbook as getting sucked into a black hole, makes it personal for some.

 

[Spudmuffin]

So let’s define “combat”.

Two to tango rule?

two or more ships shooting at each other.
this is why we don't call armed-mugging a combat encounter. any more than we call German u-boats targetting supply convoys.

EDIT: I understand, these occasions, the victims don't have a way out, so I realistically shouldn't either. But thats the perk of it being a video game. I don't plan on logging every chance, as I've said, its just when there is a lot to lose, and it is clear that the interdictor only has murder on his mind and not actually acquiring my cargo as loot, I opt out.

lately, to avoid the necessity, I've been playing solo/private to acquire the money needed to afford a nice rebuy pad, since thats what it really all comes down to. The loss of time sunk.

 

[Strangepork]

Hi CMDRs,

So, this is a question more geared for any actual Frontier employees. Since I cannot find precise or even updated information on the concern.

As the title suggests, it is about combat logging and whether or not it is against the Terms of Service, thus a bannable offense. In fact, the only stipulation I can find is when the logger uses something like ALT+F4 or some other way to kill the application to quickly exit the game. This, I get. I understand that, and that is not what I'm concerned with.

My concern is the combat logging from the SAVE AND EXIT with the 15-second cooldown. This is a function built into the game. That means an employee at Frontier took the time to code this. It had to go through in-house Quality & Assurance. It had to be approved by someone else. It has been years since the game has come out. If this feature is the bannable offense of Combat Logging, it should not exist. That is not an exploit. That is an intentional mechanic of the game.

Proof of this being considered the bannable combat logging would be greatly appreciated. And if it is, even more appreciated, would be removing the mechanic from the Save & Exit mechanic. Otherwise, the PvPers can stop whining about this. Thanks.

If there was only a way to make shadow banning cmdrs make money...

 

[Erasmus Boone]

I really wish the menu exit was automatic after the timer was up, don't care if they make it longer. If I need to exit in a hurry for the doorbell or in my case i currently have issues with my er hmm 'waterworks' * then having to wait out the timer is stupid. Make it longer if needed but when i hit exit I want to be able to leave.

* Having test at the hospital next week and I quote from the letter 'This test involves a fine flexible telescope a bit like a catheter...' TELESCOPE!!!!!! Are they insane!

 

[Duc_Mallard]

The problem with exiting the game like this even using the timer is that for the commander who is winning the combat situation you literally disappear and escape death by virtue of exploiting mechanics outside of the in game galaxy.
Basically it's a poor solution by Fdev.
They don't want people to combat log proper because it screws the instancing, so they'd rather offer a solution where cmdrs get to feel like theyre not cheating and so encourages them no to log off the ungraceful way.
If they increased the timer to say one minute or even thirty seconds, those exploitatively inclined cmdrs would be more likely to just combat log the unofficial way.

 

[Drelthar]

Using the escape menu and the fifteen second countdown timer is legit.

Though I personally find it terribly unsportsmanlike to use this under any circumstance other than real life requiring you to stop playing.

It's designed for that, not as a way to avoid the consequence of combat.

 

[Spudmuffin]

The vital difference being is that the attacker legit loses nothing. The victim loses potentially everything. In my type 9 I risk up to 30mill in cargo, roughly 20mill (18mill or so) rebuy, up top 4mill in fines for abandoning unique cargo missions plus potentially the ship itself if I dont have the rebuy.

Why is this such a big deal for the attacking player? I legit dont get it.

Edit: also even if I didn't log, and let the attacker kill me in this instance, he would only get, at most 700t of either palladium, gold or silver which wouldn't net the same gain as me completing the mission so at that point it's a small financial gain at the cost of denying me my larger gain. So again, I can either spare myself the loss (why shouldn't I if I have the ability) or let the attacker take a steamy dump IF he is after my cargo at all.

If he's killing me for either sake, it's not very sportsman like to be attacking me in the first place.

 

[Tarman]

The vital difference being is that the attacker legit loses nothing. The victim loses potentially everything. In my type 9 I risk up to 30mill in cargo, roughly 20mill (18mill or so) rebuy, up top 4mill in fines for abandoning unique cargo missions plus potentially the ship itself if I dont have the rebuy.

Why is this such a big deal for the attacking player? I legit dont get it.

Why is it such a big deal that it is an attacking player? That's what I don't get.

As a player in this game you should be willing to accept loss at any point; stations can and will eliminate you purely for traffic flow concerns, even if you had a liner full of passengers. Whether a dood or the AI serves up rebuy is irrelevant imo. Would you exit out of an NPC attack as well to prevent a temporary setback, or is it just the burn of it being caused by a person?

 

[Spudmuffin]

Npc's demand cargo before they shoot. They're also significantly easier to evade in the interdiction minigame. They're also not engineered so escape is more viable. Need more?

It's also not the death that I care about. Its the severe punishment that death serves in this game. If it weren't for rebuy, loss of cargo, exploration data and fines for failed missions, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Has it been 24 hours already or are we early to dig up and beat this dead horse again?

OP asked, the answer was given: regardless of the circumstance, menu logging and waiting out the timer has been fully authorized and sanctioned by Frontier. Anything else is not, though I have no doubt there are some allowances made for incidents like game crashes, Windows crashes and the occasional cat in the desk. But these would be exceptions not rules.