Why is 'space legs' so technically difficult?

[phong]

... speaking of this issue like if it was some kind of dream fantasy made up by some players...

Which it absolutely is.All technical issues aside,the game has always been about the ships in the galaxy.The ships are and always have been the stars of the show,together with the galaxy in which they exist.Adding legs would change that balance fundamentaly and the game would cease to be what it always has been.The only reason the topic is on the table is because the players have put it there.It is an interesting project,but would best benefit from being developed as a stand-alone project imo,since the focus of damage would switch from the ships ability to absorb it to the player's vastly more fragile frame,and everything has to be rebuilt to accomodate this fact.And you just know as soon as it was introduced people would be screaming for jet packs.

 

[Hellakitty]

I just skim read the last page of this thread, then my head exploded when I saw someone say 'Q5'.

 

[askavir]

Which it absolutely is.

No, it's absolutely not. You are free to cover your eyes and ears and pretend what you like, but it won't change the fact that FD, by the voice of it's CEO and founder David Braben, plus it's game designer and other devs repeatedly disagree with you.

 

[Hellakitty]

No, it's absolutely not. You are free to cover your eyes and ears and pretend what you like, but it won't change the fact that FD, by the voice of it's CEO and founder Davide Braben, plus it's game designer and other devs repeatedly disagree with you.

I'm not saying they'll say whatever it takes to sell copies of the games, but they care about their shareholders more than the players.

 

[Old Duck]

The only reason the topic is on the table is because the players have put it there.

I thought we all agreed that David Braben does not play his own game?

 

[askavir]

I'm not saying they'll say whatever it takes to sell copies of the games, but they care about their shareholders more than the players.

True, but baiting and switching such huge "details" like space legs or atmospheric worlds, most especially after speaking about them repeatedly, and using them as bait to sell expansion passes, would not go well for Frontier future game sales either.

The thing with selling a car but then delivering a cartwheel, is that it only works one time. Not saying this is the case, but hypothetically.

Also, shareholders wan't money. Money only comes from 2 sources, either more people buying the game or expansions, or more active players spending on the store. Either case, that won't be achieved just by keeping adding trivialities or more of the same.

 

[Old Duck]

Whatever you like to believe. Just one comment to your second last post: I've already heard voices saying that even without any sensible activities 'space legs' would be worth it. And so much I don't care about space legs coming or not, in this case I care very much when precious developer time will be wasted for nothing more than some good looking fluff while the game suffers on so many other construction zones.

As I said in another thread, many of us would be happy with an EVA suit as a new type of "SRV", around which there is plenty of "sensible activities" already in the game.

I want an EVA as a new type of SRV. Everyone assumes "space legs" means Star Citizen, but I'd be very happy to climb in a suit like I would climb in an SRV and walk around places I would normally drive around. This would require minimal programming on Frontier's part, since they'd basically be adapting existing SRV and Holome code. I'm pretty sure walking / running physics would actually be easier to implement than a fast SRV with shock-absorbers.

Do not underestimate the desire and enjoyment of walking around a Guardian Ruin, or jetpacking up to the top our Anaconda and walking around on the "deck", or taking selfies with other player around a "campfire" (fumeroles).



An EVA suit could have a heads-up display similar to SRV (think Iron Man), a jetpack, even a hand-held mining laser for gathering materials and charging Guardian Pylons. Oh, and a data scanner. In other words, it would be just as easy to add to the game as any other new SRV type IMO.

I'd also request that EVA suit be usable without an SRV hangar. I'm not saying it replace the SRV entirely, as walking / running is slow, nor could we carry 1 ton cargo canisters on our back (unless we have thruster sled to put them on).

That's not to say I don't want to someday walk around my ship, but an EVA would at least be a start for those of us who want it, and despite your constant objections, it would not be that terribly hard to do.

 

[askavir]

Whatever you like to believe.

I'll still rather believe the poeple who are making the game, over people who deny the existence of something just because they don't like it, thanks.

Just one comment to your second last post: I've already heard voices saying that even without any sensible activities 'space legs' would be worth it. And so much I don't care about space legs coming or not, in this case I care very much when precious developer time will be wasted for nothing more than some good looking fluff while the game suffers on so many other construction zones.

And that's your fair opinion which is fine. I also want activities to go with it. But the thing about "I'd rather see the dev time used for other things instead", is that it can be said about every single thing, by every single player. Everybody has it's own likes and dislikes, his own wishes, his own favorite parts of the game. If something was ditched because someone doesn't like it, then never would ever be done. Pretty sure there are people who think legs is just a pile of poo, but if they present their own list of "better things to do instead" there will be also things that are just a pile of poo for others, guaranteed.

 

[askavir]

Ah c'mon now. Don't you think you're overdoing this comment a little bit? I'm following the forums as you do and I really can't get how you can pretend as if the developers would frequently talk about space legs. All I can recall are some early visions/dreams by David Braben and maybe Sandro as well but nothing even remotely close to a 'promise' or seriously resilient. That said, there's possible error included (I'm just human and miss things on the forum every once in a while) and I'd be happily educated about the opposite.

Though I'm pretty sure I already know your 'sources'...

They talk about it with the same frequency that they talk about anything, which is, as you know, very little.

But I didn't only had the dev diaries and kickstarter videos, it was again pitched just before launch when the sale of expansion passes began (it was also the main part of the newsletter article that promoted the LEPs). Later it was again stated by devs that it was on the roadmap. They don't talk about it "frequently" (at least in my definition of frequently), but FD doesn't exactly talk frequently about anything do they?

While it hasn't been written in blood under penalty of Braben losing it's soul to Satan, it was still stated several times in a manner that we can't trust them to their words, then we couldn't trust them with anything they say. After all, saying "look at all these amazing things we're going to add in the future, now buy expansion passes" and then dropping said stuff would be a huge bait and switch.

That's absolutely ok. That's why we talk and don't have to agree.

We finally agree!

 

[Barking_Mad]

How long can you enjoy combat in ED with no other mechanics, other than moving around?

How long can you enjoy trading in ED with no other mechanics, other than moving around?

How long can you enjoy mining in ED with no other mechanics, other than moving around?

See a pattern? It's what you can do when moving around that's quite a key factor to how enjoyable it is...


Again, there's sooooo very much in the core game that's bare minimum and/or NOT EVEN THERE... Please let's not invent an entire new area for placeholder gameplay to be created. Please...

You're assuming nothing in the core game will be improved upon between now and spacelegs arriving. Mining itself is about to get a large overhaul.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. This one is very concrete with a debitable statement: "Major new features will include planetary landings and even walking around inside ships, stations, and planet surfaces with time." It clearly says "will" and not "may" or "could". That's critical and I stand corrected. Doesn't mean I'm suddenly on your side and promote space-legs now, I just admit you do have a point here. [up]

but mind, it also ends with the words "with time", the ancient predecessor of Soon(TM)

A few quotes on my blog, the last one I'm aware of being David Braben in April 2017 saying,

“It’s coming, but obviously it’s not imminent, but it is coming and it is planned.”

https://elitedangerous2016.wordpress.com/2016/06/14/beyond-the-horizon/#4

 

[askavir]

Doesn't mean I'm suddenly on your side and promote space-legs now, I just admit you do have a point here. [up]

Fair enough!

 

[Mephane]

Just as it stands right now, between 3.1 and 3.2, there just isn't really anything to actually DO with a biped.

In retrospect, I think SRVs were a mistake. All the SRV gameplay should instead have been on foot (with things like the distances between rocks scaled down accordingly since you'd move slower).

 

[Ian Skippy]

They talk about it with the same frequency that they talk about anything, which is, as you know, very little.

But I didn't only had the dev diaries and kickstarter videos, it was again pitched just before launch when the sale of expansion passes began (it was also the main part of the newsletter article that promoted the LEPs). Later it was again stated by devs that it was on the roadmap. They don't talk about it "frequently" (at least in my definition of frequently), but FD doesn't exactly talk frequently about anything do they?

While it hasn't been written in blood under penalty of Braben losing it's soul to Satan, it was still stated several times in a manner that we can't trust them to their words, then we couldn't trust them with anything they say. After all, saying "look at all these amazing things we're going to add in the future, now buy expansion passes" and then dropping said stuff would be a huge bait and switch.



We finally agree!

You forget the reddit AMA with Braben, where he explicitly said Space Legs is coming and being worked on. The space legs wikia has the reference, plus a few more.

There really is no ambiguity.

 

[Bob McBobblehead]

Why is it so difficult?
[video=youtube_share;PtiBe_kvAUk]https://youtu.be/PtiBe_kvAUk?t=49[/video]

 

[Tarman]

That would be a pity. I have a lot of fun lately with SRV driving over various surface conditions and gravity. Can't imagine something similarly entertaining on feet. It's one of the most rewarding aspects of SRV driving, to find the right balance between speed and grip and well timed jumps. Such a thing would be trivialized with space legs as you never realistically reach a comparable speed. The same thing at best but in super slow motion...

I like the Space Engineers jetpack. It's fun and can get up to some good speeds, but also if you get out of control you'll wipe yourself right out waaay harder than an SRV rollover. ED could always steal that.

 

[Chaparral]

Varying G (from zero to huge) has an enormous impact on locomotion mechanics. Artificial G (Krait MkII!) would help a ton.

 

[Tarman]

But help me try to understand what is so appealing on that? We already have that with the up-thrusters. With the additional bonus of wheel control + some nice break effects on top of that. Reduced to this certain aspect, what you'll get is less than what you already have.

edit:
But is the idea of a Jet-pack not already way off when it comes to legs?

For me the concept is based around scale of operations. We have spaceship, then the scaledown to SRV and SLF, then the proposed future scaledown to person-sized. Jetpack is just a part of person-scale operation to me, and jetpacks are cool.

I don't actually care if we ever get legs in Elite or not, tbh, but in Space Engineers, I found the person-sized movement arrangements quite satisfying. If legs happen before I die in Elite then I'd like a jetpack too, because I don't have one IRL.

 

[Ian Skippy]

But help me try to understand what is so appealing on that?

Honestly, that is a futile question. We can provide arguments back and forth, but ultimately it isn't about that at all. Some people find a certain gameplay idea simply intrinsically appealing. Jet-packs/EVA is simply something many people find enjoyable. Maybe it is about the sense of scale. About feeling like a person rather than a ship. Maybe it is something very different. But if you dont get it, you won't get it no matter the arguments.

 

[Tarman]

Fair enough. But all what ultimately could convince me is a really good implementation of space legs. So, pretty please, surprise me and - bring it!

Actual implementation is probably the most important consideration by far. If it sucks bricks, nobody will like it whether they wanted it in the game or not. We'll then have our usual time-machine-based statements of "well they shouldn't have made it in the first place".