Have recently moved from 24" PC Monitor to 48" 4K TV for playing EDH. I use a Thrustmaster HOTAS for controls and since moving screens have noticed that weapons which I had well under control on the old monitor are all over the place on the tv. I can kinda see that the bigger screen would have a effect on steering but it seems a lot. Has anyone else experienced this and can it be controlled or do I just have to learn to be better on steering the ship?.
Hardware & Technical Does Monitor Size Have an effect on Ship Manoeuvrability?
- Thread starter Saltyseadog
- Start date
It shouldn't technically but I bet as you are now close to a much bigger screen it feels like it so you will have to relearn your hand to eye coordination.
Although I liked my old Thrustmaster Hotas X I never found it to be that precise when aiming fixed weapons.
In comparison my T1600M FCS HOTAS is much better and I feel a lot more comfortable aiming with that.
I don't use any additional software with it and they just plug straight in.
You could try recalibrating your joystick to rule that out.
Also you could try Joystick Curves to smooth out your movement:
https://xedocproject.com/joystickcurves.html
There's a thread here that it gets a mention in:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/404948-How-to-configure-joystick-curves-for-dummies
Finally, you haven't upgraded your thrusters recently or changed your ship have you?
Although I liked my old Thrustmaster Hotas X I never found it to be that precise when aiming fixed weapons.
In comparison my T1600M FCS HOTAS is much better and I feel a lot more comfortable aiming with that.
I don't use any additional software with it and they just plug straight in.
You could try recalibrating your joystick to rule that out.
Also you could try Joystick Curves to smooth out your movement:
https://xedocproject.com/joystickcurves.html
There's a thread here that it gets a mention in:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/404948-How-to-configure-joystick-curves-for-dummies
Finally, you haven't upgraded your thrusters recently or changed your ship have you?
LCD TVs can sometimes introduce quite a lot of lag as they can push the signal through boxes of gubbins that add effects, etc. That's why you often see TVs slightly out of sync with each other in showrooms.
If your TV has a gaming mode, try switching to that.
If your TV has a gaming mode, try switching to that.
This^
My TV automatically disables all the imaging gubbins for my PC, but if I force it on, it goes a bit "slow" and laggy (but does smooth out the FPS nice. Lol)
I recommend you disable all of the image processing options.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
Input lag is the technical term for it. Lock max fps to 60, and disable vsync in game, you should be fine provided your pc can kick out a solid 60fps. I use a tv on my sim rig as well, it's not ideal but with that adjustment at least I can now shoot. Make sure the TV is in gaming mode as well, to give fastest response.
Thanks for the replies people, rep added and I will check out your suggestions. I actually used Joystick Curves when I began on ED about 4 yrs ago, there was a video on You Tube by a Scots guy detailing how to set it up. I think when I built my present Win10 PC I just forgot to reinstall it or maybe I had problems getting Windows to recognize it can't remember but I will try that again.
Not sure what you are trying to say andrak?.
I think they are being sarcastic.
Display latency (often referred to as display response time) and increased GPU loading for increased resolution are the only likely consequences for using a higher resolution/larger display.
It may be worth keeping in mind that if the match of optical FoV to rendered FoV is different then perceptions can be altered, that means regardless of the actual resolution of the display larger displays should always be placed at an appropriate distance from you so that the rendered view matches expectations. In your case: doubling the size of the display means you would be best advised to ensure you are twice as far away from the screen to ensure the same visual perception.
If Joystick Curves is what I think it is, then depending on the shaping applied that could be the primary cause of what you are reporting.
Fundamentally, AFAIK ED uses (in the main) the same underlying algorithms regardless of what your display setup is.
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I have have used joystick curves and Thrustmasters TARGET software and I can tell you for a fact they don't induce any lag. Besides, the OP isn't currently using it.
The most likely culprit is the TV itself. TVs have been very well known and documented to induce lag when gaming. Most new TVs will have ways to reduce this.
Problem solved folks, I downloaded and installed Joystick Curves but even though I did the pre flight checks as soon as I lifted off my ship became uncontrollable and I was destroyed in the station. After uninstalling it and rechecking my Thrustmaster settings I remembered seeing a piece in the video I followed on the HOTAS-X settings etc in Win 10 where you enter joy.cpl in the run box which opens up the joystick properties etc and in there is an option to re-calibrate the Thrustmaster. I followed the prompts and did the recalibration and on starting up EDH all my problems had disappeared and the ship was handling properly again. Due to a couple of things I think the problems I was having had been there for a while and the bigger screen had made them more evident in combat situations especially. I built this PC around 3yrs ago and I just plugged in the thrustmaster set and played with it as was, in fact I can only ever remember calibrating it when I first bought it and with all the updates etc in the past 4yrs it might be that all of you Thrustmaster HOTAS-X users should perhaps take a look at this option?. Anyway thanks for the replies and we can mark it up as problem solved for me. Thanks again.
I am not convinced that the lag you are referring to is the primary issue in play, it might be a factor but only 1-2 frames (at 60Hz) perhaps (depends on make/model of device) but differences in input shaping can make things feel either more twitchy or more sluggish depending on the precise circumstances.
Edit
Ninjad by the OP - @OP: Glad to hear you got it sorted, I did not even think about mentioning calibration of the stick but it is one of the first things I check when analog inputs feel squirrelly.
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Nah it depends on vsync not the number of fps, a typical response time of a good TV is 15ms, three times that of even an average monitor. Vsync introduces input lag as it waits for those frames, it's as simple as that, and to the op, I'm glad you figured the main factor was your joystick profile, but I bet you'll still find that it's not as responsive as before, due to the way vsync affects tvs.
Anyway, the info is all here so he's well equipped to work out any further issues now, and indeed if it's a top quality, new TV, the difference should be small.
Actually it is not, and there are ALOT of variables wrt general software design that have impact in that regard.
15ms lag would be around one full refresh of a proper 60Hz TV (~16.6ms refresh cycle time) whether it is V-Synced or not. 4K Monitors can vary from 1ms to 8ms, 1ms is pretty much the norm for gaming 1080p monitors IME. However, this all moot since the OP has obviously resolved their particular issue.
Actually it is not, and there are ALOT of variables wrt general software design that have impact in that regard.
15ms lag would be around one full refresh of a proper 60Hz TV (~16.6ms refresh cycle time) whether it is V-Synced or not. 4K Monitors can vary from 1ms to 8ms, 1ms is pretty much the norm for gaming 1080p monitors IME. However, this all moot since the OP has obviously resolved their particular issue.
Yeh, I corrected you because I don't know what I'm talking about. Uh-huh, yeh, people do that a lot. As for that second paragraph...lol. Just, wow, and you were doing so well.
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There is scaling/processing lag on many displays that is entirely separate from, and in addition to, any pixel response, which is in turn in addition to any time the system and the renderer take to prepare the frame in the first place.
My current primary display (a BenQ BL3200PT monitor) has about a one refresh/frame (~17ms) processing delay from the time the signal hits the display until the time it can even start to draw the image to the panel. Pixel response then depends on the degree of change being made to a pixel (certain transitions are faster than others), the scanline that pixel is on (top of the screen is refreshed first, even in LCDs), and any response time compensation setting used (which can dramatically improve pixel response, but may cause overshoot ghosting).
Most monitors and modern TVs with a 'game mode', or options to otherwise limit the amount of processing, will have very low input latency (anywhere from zero to one frame worth), other than the pixel response proper. However, some TVs can have as many as four or five full frames of input latency (upwards of 80ms in the worst cases) which will destroy their utility for gaming. Fortunately this is rather rare today.
Any sort of frame rate cap, including vsync, is generally bad for input latency as it increases the time it takes to draw frames. Normally this is not a big deal, unless you allow frame rate to dip too low, or the queue depth is too large (this can be adjusted in NVIDIA's driver settings, or in the registry values for AMD's drivers, though the latter is usually well optimized by default). The real issue with vsync is that any missed refresh causes the duplication of a frame, which can present as stutter in addition to automatically making the minimum latency hit one full frame (worse, if a queue has built up). Even with triple buffering or the like, you'll be bouncing between frames that are displayed for ~17ms and ones that are displayed for ~33ms, if you can't maintain a frame rate at least that.
Also, if you are trying to avoid tearing, frame rate caps aren't a substitute for synchronization. You'll almost never be able to set the frame rate cap to exactly the refresh rate of the display and even if you could, you would have no way to control when the refresh starts relative to the frame, or vice versa. You can use frame rate limiters in conjunction with vsync to limit peak queue depth while removing tearing, but most in-game limiters aren't accurate enough to completely eliminate stutter with this.
Personally, I prefer an uncapped frame rate, no vsync at all, and the lowest queue depth possible, as this is the lowest possible input latency, with no chance of artificially induced stutter. Tearing is generally not very perceptible either as the frame rate tends to be much higher than the refresh rate, minimizing the differences between one frame and the next (and thus what is above or below the tear line). There are some exceptions, but they are generally ones where vsync would be worse.
If tearing really bothers you, get a VRR display, use RTSS to cap frame rate to a hundredth of a frame below your true refresh rate (https://www.testufo.com/refreshrate) and turn vsync on, or use fast(NVIDIA)/enhanced(AMD) synch and set your "max frames render ahead" (for NVIDIA cards) to "1".
My current primary display (a BenQ BL3200PT monitor) has about a one refresh/frame (~17ms) processing delay from the time the signal hits the display until the time it can even start to draw the image to the panel. Pixel response then depends on the degree of change being made to a pixel (certain transitions are faster than others), the scanline that pixel is on (top of the screen is refreshed first, even in LCDs), and any response time compensation setting used (which can dramatically improve pixel response, but may cause overshoot ghosting).
Most monitors and modern TVs with a 'game mode', or options to otherwise limit the amount of processing, will have very low input latency (anywhere from zero to one frame worth), other than the pixel response proper. However, some TVs can have as many as four or five full frames of input latency (upwards of 80ms in the worst cases) which will destroy their utility for gaming. Fortunately this is rather rare today.
Any sort of frame rate cap, including vsync, is generally bad for input latency as it increases the time it takes to draw frames. Normally this is not a big deal, unless you allow frame rate to dip too low, or the queue depth is too large (this can be adjusted in NVIDIA's driver settings, or in the registry values for AMD's drivers, though the latter is usually well optimized by default). The real issue with vsync is that any missed refresh causes the duplication of a frame, which can present as stutter in addition to automatically making the minimum latency hit one full frame (worse, if a queue has built up). Even with triple buffering or the like, you'll be bouncing between frames that are displayed for ~17ms and ones that are displayed for ~33ms, if you can't maintain a frame rate at least that.
Also, if you are trying to avoid tearing, frame rate caps aren't a substitute for synchronization. You'll almost never be able to set the frame rate cap to exactly the refresh rate of the display and even if you could, you would have no way to control when the refresh starts relative to the frame, or vice versa. You can use frame rate limiters in conjunction with vsync to limit peak queue depth while removing tearing, but most in-game limiters aren't accurate enough to completely eliminate stutter with this.
Personally, I prefer an uncapped frame rate, no vsync at all, and the lowest queue depth possible, as this is the lowest possible input latency, with no chance of artificially induced stutter. Tearing is generally not very perceptible either as the frame rate tends to be much higher than the refresh rate, minimizing the differences between one frame and the next (and thus what is above or below the tear line). There are some exceptions, but they are generally ones where vsync would be worse.
If tearing really bothers you, get a VRR display, use RTSS to cap frame rate to a hundredth of a frame below your true refresh rate (https://www.testufo.com/refreshrate) and turn vsync on, or use fast(NVIDIA)/enhanced(AMD) synch and set your "max frames render ahead" (for NVIDIA cards) to "1".
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Your lack of knowledge and lack of knowing what you don't know just proves that you don't know what you are talking about. And yes - people do that a lot on the internet.
I often see certain things professed from certain quadrants of the gaming community that make so many assumptions about the software design it is ridiculous. In the old days when most games were single threaded V-Sync would have had a greater impact, in the current days of multi-threading there are various software patterns that can mitigate such concerns - I have used such patterns in R/T man-in-the-loop simulations as far back as 2000 and the patterns in question are probably older than that.
WRT HD TV refresh - a lot are actually interlaced so a 60Hz TV in such a case would have a 30Hz effective refresh (50Hz/25Hz if adhering to legacy PAL frequencies). There are however at least some TVs that are capable of 1080p60 and in those cases 15ms would be a near enough a single screen refresh of latency. A display can not update faster than it's refresh rate regardless of the frame rate a game is allegedly running at, if software tries to then you get tearing and/or other artefacts (one of the primary reasons for V-Sync in the first place).
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Not quite accurate - V-Sync holds up the render pipeline till the buffer it is has written to is displayed. While that can seem to induce "additional" latency depending on various factors it need not. Triple buffering paired with V-Sync can mean that a render pipeline can effectively free run with only the last complete frame being presented to the display for processing (what nVidia refer to as Fast V-Sync mode effectively).
Tearing can induce simulator sickness as well as generally looking ugly and potentially having an adverse effect on accurate targeting.