Modes Is attacking clean players (not npcs) in Open harassment?

[Braandlin]

Again, as above. There's options available to avoid undesirable behaviour built into the design of the game. I'll recap them in case anyone else is interested...

Private Group
Solo
Block Player
High-wake escape manoeuvres (my favourite!)

NO.

The answer to bullying is to change the behaviour of the bully or to remove the bully from the situation.
The answer is not to tell the victim to change behaviour and play in solo or PG.

Now I do however agree that there is a huge difference between someone who has been genuinely bullied and simply losing one fight in a video game space ship.

Sadly too many people scream "Bullying!" at the slightest issue these days and it makes those who genuinely have serious concerns harder to hear.

 

[JustJon]

NO.

The answer to bullying is to change the behaviour of the bully or to remove the bully from the situation.
The answer is not to tell the victim to change behaviour and play in solo or PG.

Now I do however agree that there is a huge difference between someone who has been genuinely bullied and simply losing one fight in a video game space ship.

Sadly too many people scream "Bullying!" at the slightest issue these days and it makes those who genuinely have serious concerns harder to hear.

Yeah - well that's what you get for encouraging snowflakes.

 

[Marra Morgan]

NO.

The answer to bullying is to change the behaviour of the bully or to remove the bully from the situation.
The answer is not to tell the victim to change behaviour and play in solo or PG.

Tell me; which is in your control - the options I presented, or changing the behaviour of the perceived bully?

 

[Braandlin]

Tell me; which is in your control - the options I presented, or changing the behaviour of the perceived bully?

I agree My behaviour is in My control, the behaviour of bullies is not.
But that's why there are controls on most networked systems to attempt to police genuinely criminal bullying behaviour.
And reporting incidents IS in the victims control.


However It isn't that simple. The symptoms of some one genuinely being bullied and suffering emotional problems often include a significant drop in self worth and the inability/unwillingness to communicate the problem with others.

Therefore whilst your comments are true - and the victim has options to protect themselves it is often not possible for them to do that.

The issue is the bully needs to be dealt with, not put them emphasis on the victim.


I reiterate that I am talking about true bullying and harassment here. I am not advocating crying to FDev over being interdicted. There is an enormous difference between simple PvP disagreements, and sustained genuinely damaging bullying.

I have been associated with some family members that have been through some elements of cyber bullying and it is genuinely horrifying what some groups of human beings will plan, and enact against others simply for their own twisted enjoyment. The lack of empathy is breathtaking. At the same time it can be very difficult to understand the choices and actions a previously sensible person will make when their self worth has been beaten into the ground.

o7

 

[Marra Morgan]

I agree My behaviour is in My control, the behaviour of bullies is not.
But that's why there are controls on most networked systems to attempt to police genuinely criminal bullying behaviour.
And reporting incidents IS in the victims control.


However It isn't that simple. The symptoms of some one genuinely being bullied and suffering emotional problems often include a significant drop in self worth and the inability/unwillingness to communicate the problem with others.

Therefore whilst your comments are true - and the victim has options to protect themselves it is often not possible for them to do that.

The issue is the bully needs to be dealt with, not put them emphasis on the victim.


I reiterate that I am talking about true bullying and harassment here. I am not advocating crying to FDev over being interdicted. There is an enormous difference between simple PvP disagreements, and sustained genuinely damaging bullying.

I have been associated with some family members that have been through some elements of cyber bullying and it is genuinely horrifying what some groups of human beings will plan, and enact against others simply for their own twisted enjoyment. The lack of empathy is breathtaking. At the same time it can be very difficult to understand the choices and actions a previously sensible person will make when their self worth has been beaten into the ground.

o7

I think we're in agreement there. To reiterate my earlier reply to Mouse, genuine incidents of abuse and cyberbullying should always be reported, and the leadership of the player group concerned informed. Player communities can play a big part by making it clear that such things are not tolerated in their groups, and take appropriate action though outing and banning guilty parties.

 

[ZeroAi]

I think in the end, many of us can't even agree on what Harassment and Harassing mean.

I totally agree with those who say "harassing" is continually pestering someone, like spawn killing over and over in an FPS.

But "harassment" can be a single instance or act, and you don't need to be killed many times in game to feel "harassed" by another player.

I'm a retired UK Constable - I know what constitutes "harassment".
Being blown up once by a random person in a video game that advertises the ability to kill other players; is not it.

In fact, the entire concept is a mockery to all the victims of real harassment.

That's probably why you can't separate the two.

The simple fact is, there is nothing in the dictionary that states the word "harassment" can only be used to discuss actual legal crimes.

I never lived in Canada or the UK, but here in the USA it's very common to use the word outside of describing crimes.

Honestly, my grandkids harass each other occasionally, especially when they are bored or cranky.

Even our eight month old puppy occasionally harasses our older dog.

So if it offends you that I use the word "harassment" and "harassing" as described in the dictionary (and not in you local vernacular,) that's on you - feel free to be offended!

BUT this alternate definition sounds very British to me AND fits right in with Elite's gameplay:

Harassing: To make repeated small-scale attacks on (an enemy). "the squadron's task was to harass the retreating enemy forces"

Just stop.

No.

And I'll keep using the word as defined in the dictionary.

If you want to keep imagining I'm talking about a UK law, go right ahead, you're free to do so!

I cannot understand why a small minority try to equate harassment, bullying and even sexual assault to actions in a video game. It completely demeans real victims of those crimes. Some perspective is sorely needed in some people.

I can't understand why a small minority take a word used in discussing an in-game action and apply a legal meaning to it?

When game companies talk about killing, are we now going to admonish them because they don't take into account those people being killed in actual wars?

When game companies talk about death in game, are we now going to admonish them because they don't take into account those of us who recently lost loved ones in real life?

When a game gives us a mission to "harass the retreating enemy forces," are we going to censor them because to use the word in such a way is offensive to those suffering criminal harassment in real life?

Some perspective IS sorely needed, but not what you're bringing to the table.

Agreed, but if you try to play a game and someone or a group of people repeatedly hound you, follow you, do all they can to interrupt your gameplay? What would that be? And my original question from earlier, could someone who prowls around looking for "newbie" ships to destroy... would that be a form?

I'd say that's one player (or players) "harassing" the other - as in the standard definition of harassing aka bothering, pestering, troubling.

But it's obviously not a criminal act in the physical world, because it's in game.

If it's "seal clubbing" i.e. the aggressor is in a vastly superior craft then yes it's technically harassment. As others have said if aggression is maintained over a period of time it's harassment too.

Also it IS bullying if the aggressor is after "salt".... fact. No amount of language gymnastics will avail you, if you WANT to upset a fellow human being then you ARE a bully. end of.

I must admit I'd like to see how many who say "it's just a game", "it's just pixels" etc have a hissy fit when someone combat logs on them.....as after all "it's just a game/pixels" and means nothing doesn't it?

Good points!

There is no threshold.

Correct. A single instance is all that is needed to meet the definition.

a real commander

Wait, we're talking about Elite, a video game. There are no real commanders in Elite.

If you cannot deal with the enemy... cannot handle pvp or do not like it , go to a private group , fly solo , etc..

Way off topic but true.

You can also join Mobius PG for PvE, but that's also off topic.

don't try to impose new rules or regulations

Did you read the question?

It was if a well armed player blows up a clean player is that harassment.

The obviously conclusion is (if you use the definition of the word "harassment") it is if the clean player was going about his business and not doing anything to make himself a target.

And yeah, it's totally within the rules to do so, but like spawn camping in an FPS, most people also think it's bad behavior.

If I'm carrying cargo in Open I accept that piracy is a thing but I want to some roleplay / gameplay out of it. I want to be hailed and ordered to jettison like NPC pirates do. If I'm not doing / carrying anything of value, I should still be a potential target for attack, murder is a thing and sometimes it's indiscriminate, but to be killed in that situation should be rare. The problem is that multiplayer games distort this balance and indiscriminate murder becomes the norm.

Harassment is something else entirely and suggests something more prolonged.

Thanks for sharing your opinion

NO.

The answer to bullying is to change the behaviour of the bully or to remove the bully from the situation.
The answer is not to tell the victim to change behaviour and play in solo or PG.

Now I do however agree that there is a huge difference between someone who has been genuinely bullied and simply losing one fight in a video game space ship.

Sadly too many people scream "Bullying!" at the slightest issue these days and it makes those who genuinely have serious concerns harder to hear.

You make some great points about... bullying. Very sound.

But being harassed (pestered, bothered, etc) by another player in game doesn't seem to rise to bullying very often, imo.

-------------------------------------------------

Well that's all I have to say on this one :-D

Feel free to keep the conversation going, or (for a select few) continue to insult me.

Fly Safe and Proud CMDR's

o7

Grey

 

[Braandlin]

I think we're in agreement there. To reiterate my earlier reply to Mouse, genuine incidents of abuse and cyberbullying should always be reported, and the leadership of the player group concerned informed. Player communities can play a big part by making it clear that such things are not tolerated in their groups, and take appropriate action though outing and banning guilty parties.

Agreed o7

 

[Mouse]

No, I don't think the act of attacking in itself constitutes harassment. That's part of the game's design - Frontier have anticipated and permitted player groups to fight against each other, either indirectly through the BGS or directly through PvP (or in my group's case - both!).

However, if those actions are accompanied by abusive and unpleasant communications in an out-of-game context, that goes directly against the Code of Conduct. That's where there may be cases of cyberbullying and other hate-crimes and I encourage anyone unfortunate enough to experience behaviour like that to report it to Frontier, the Community Managers and the leadership of that player group.

At Loren's Legion, we have very strict policies around how we communicate with our in-game foes, keeping it all within context of the game and its lore. I strongly feel that player groups have a responsibility to ensure good conduct from their members and they should investigate any accusations against their members seriously.



Infiltrating a PvE group isn't a breach of the Code of Conduct in itself, however it does breach the no-PvP rules that the groups may have made for themselves. It is down to the group's owner(s) to act on that and ban offenders as appropriate.



I must admit, sometimes I do have a little giggle at all-caps, exclamation-overkill, large-type-in-bold rants about things which were wholly avoidable. The ones about the C&P system are my favourites

But when it comes to people deliberately making other's leisure time a misery, I'm not a fan. I'd much rather everyone was honest and sensible about their expectations of the game and chose a mode that best suits their playstyle. If you don't like other players shooting at you, please don't choose Open. If you want to shoot other players, please don't choose a Private Group with no-PvP rules. It's really not difficult

Thank you for your answers. I love how your faction handles things, but I admit I still disagree somewhat as I don't feel that abusive communications are needed in some case. Because again if someone is playing in Open knowing they may get attacked, yet for no reason they are killed and they take it in stride and it happens repeatedly and each time they take it in stride, yet it is the same person who is following them and specifically targeting them for whatever reason. After continual issues they are forced to block, or switch to another mode... to me that is harassment. It's gone beyond playing the game, but again that is just how I view it. The commander isn't complaining about being attacked in Open they know it happens and accept it. Yet it went beyond being attacked and that is where the grey area comes in and some say it isn't and others say it is.

And while infiltrating a PVE group isn't a breach of the code of conduct as you say... it shows again that someone is going beyond playing the game. They didn't do it to play the game, but are purposefully doing something to harass other players who do not want to play their way.

If it's "seal clubbing" i.e. the aggressor is in a vastly superior craft then yes it's technically harassment. As others have said if aggression is maintained over a period of time it's harassment too.

Also it IS bullying if the aggressor is after "salt".... fact. No amount of language gymnastics will avail you, if you WANT to upset a fellow human being then you ARE a bully. end of.

I must admit I'd like to see how many who say "it's just a game", "it's just pixels" etc have a hissy fit when someone combat logs on them.....as after all "it's just a game/pixels" and means nothing doesn't it?

This is mostly as I see it, but I tend to look at intent, as in why someone did something. If it was a PVP game and people were camping the spawn location... to me that would be harassment mainly because someone isn't playing to play the game...

Yeah - well that's what you get for encouraging snowflakes.

I would love to know where you are going with this comment...

 

[Klhank]

True story is...

As long as this game doesn't offer proper consensual pvp options we'll all have to deal with this nonsense.

The games has perfectly fine and functional consensual PVP options.

1) Save and exit to the main menu.
2) Click Start
3) IMPORTANT PART - Choose "Solo Play"

 

[Morbad]

Is attacking other players (not npcs) in Open "harassment," if those players are clean, law abiding, and not attacking you?

If by players you mean their in-game characters, then obviously not.

Also, if Elite is meant to be a fun game, should players in Open have the option to opt into (or out of) PvP?

No, as these players have already opted into the possibility that their CMDRs may encounter hostile CMDRs. That risk is supposed to be an inseparable and intrinsic part of the Open game.

Or, if Elite is meant to be realistic, shouldn't murder in game result in life imprisonment?

Only about half of murders in modern first-world democracies result in an arrest. Even fewer result in conviction and in rougher/poorer, or more isolated, areas the portion of murderers that are brought to any sort of justice by the de jure authorities can drop to near zero. Murder happens with relative impunity across huge portions of the world and even in the best of areas, there are segments of the population that have almost no legal protection or recourse.

ED's C&P system could certainly use work, but the report and solve rates for crimes is virtually 100% in any place that's under anyone's legal jurisdiction, which is far higher than it would be in any plausible setting.

Of course, CMDRs can't die in Elite, so murder penalties would only apply in the case of NPC victims, even if the perpetrator were identified and captured.

For me, attacking clean players in Open who are obviously not engaging in combat is like a interrupting a public chess game by knocking the table over.

If your CMDR could sit at table and play chess, knocking that table over then shooting that CMDR in the head still wouldn't be harassment of their player.

What you are arguing is that someone should be able to play chess without taking any pieces and thereby be exempt from the other player trying to take their pieces. My CMDR destroying your CMDR's ship in Elite: Dangerous is no more harassment than my queen 'killing' your pawns in chess.

However I think it's not in the spirit of the game.

Then you'd be mistaken.

If someone attacks me when I'm clean and they have no in-game reason, I add them to block because I want to play among people who take space piloting seriously. (To answer a possible question, it's me who decides whether they have an in-game reason, unless they offer comms giving explanation).

I take my presentation of my CMDR seriously enough that I have more than six-thousand hours of active play time, yet my CMDR lacks any PP modules because it wouldn't be in character for him to subject himself to the pledge of service required.

If my CMDR ever destroys your CMDR's vessel, you will never know why (unless you ask me, as a player, in an out of character context, after the fact), precisely because I take my space piloting seriously and undoing one's self in the exposition is comic book villain-level idiocy.

 

[Jockey79]

That's probably why you can't separate the two.

The simple fact is, there is nothing in the dictionary that states the word "harassment" can only be used to discuss actual legal crimes.

I never lived in Canada or the UK, but here in the USA it's very common to use the word outside of describing crimes.

Honestly, my grandkids harass each other occasionally, especially when they are bored or cranky.

Even our eight month old puppy occasionally harasses our older dog.

So if it offends you that I use the word "harassment" and "harassing" as described in the dictionary (and not in you local vernacular,) that's on you - feel free to be offended!

BUT this alternate definition sounds very British to me AND fits right in with Elite's gameplay:

Harassing: To make repeated small-scale attacks on (an enemy). "the squadron's task was to harass the retreating enemy forces"

Wow, you're having some issues communicating and understanding.

Where did "offended" come from?
As I said you're making a mockery of those who suffer genuine harassment.
No one mentioned being "offended".

Secondly, you even say it in the end of your own post;

"repeated"

Which means more than once.

As for "harass" in the general sense (as per your other examples), if that's what you mean then you need to be more clear when describing your experiences then as feeling "harassed" and suffering "harassment" are two completely different things.

You put;

"Is attacking other players (not npcs) in Open "harassment," if those players are clean, law abiding, and not attacking you?"

Which the answer is no. As you are referring to the legal definition of "Harassment".
And as it is only happened once, which is also part of the advertised game - it cannot be "Harassment", it's gameplay.

Now if being attacked for no reason makes you "feel harassed" (in the more general sense).
Perhaps you should go play another game, as the design of this one invokes unpleasant feelings within you.

 

[Frank Craft]

The games has perfectly fine and functional consensual PVP options.

1) Save and exit to the main menu.
2) Click Start
3) IMPORTANT PART - Choose "Solo Play"

1) Save and exit to the main menu.
2) Click Start
3) IMPORTANT PART - Choose whatever mode you like, but don't be a

 

[Klhank]

Or do be a ... I just checked TOS and the word "" did not appear......

 

[Frank Craft]

Or do be a ... I just checked TOS and the word "" did not appear......

Mmmk.

 

[Saikun]

It depends on the roleplayed role you want to do. I have nothing against common terrorists (I mean, look at INARA, you can pick up such a career on their profile-keeping stuff). I am against seal-clubbing obviously new players as such behaviour, while in theory an actual DANGEROUS experience... works the opposite way and makes players not leave Private Groups at all.

I say that as a person that's not the best person in combat, but actually considered murdering transports while screaming For Jameson! (Yeah, seriously - screw you INRA for killing our hero!)

I mean, I am already disappointed by the fact that PowerPlay activities are disabled for Private Groups and Solo. And the arguments I've met - like "we cannot counter that, duh" - are pretty much like asking players not to play in their own timezones or on other platforms (since we all share the same presistent universe) just because it cannot be countered as well. But that's a wholly new thread I don't want to start up...

Agreed on Piracy (especially the NPC one) and Smuggling being dead. Why? Cause you are paid half of the sum you'd get for them in a legal way through Commodities Market. It kills any reason for even trying these two, except for pure roleplay... And I am a roleplaying type of a person, but in all honesty isn't CREDITS the very reason why you want the shady stuff? I mean, come on. Bakery doesn't earn more money than a small drug-dealing circle.

 

[cmdr underhill]

How 'bout this...

Choices:
A) Choose Solo - enjoy!
B) Choose a Private Group - enjoy!
C) Choose Open - beware of 's. Use the report player and block tools appropriately. Most importantly: enjoy!

 

[ZeroAi]

Wow, you're having some issues communicating and understanding.

*rolls eyes*

For me, posting here is as informal as having a conversation at a pub, and anyone who can't have a simple friendly conversation should leave.

Or prove your intellect level by resorting to insults.

I really don't care.

You're making a mockery of those who suffer genuine harassment.

You can keep posting that, but it will never become true no matter how many times you do, dude.

As you are referring to the legal definition of "Harassment".

Again, you can keep posting that, but it will never make it true. Check the dictionary out, dude.

And as it is only happened once, which is also part of the advertised game - it cannot be "Harassment", it's gameplay.

Only if you make up your own "jockey79" definition.

If you use the one from the dictionary, it works perfectly (as I show below in my examples.)

if being attacked for no reason makes you "feel harassed" perhaps you should go play another game, as the design of this one invokes unpleasant feelings within you.

Epic fail dude.

In the hundreds of hours of good times I live-streamed with my friends in Elite Dangerous, I never once thought of giving it up because some random grumpy dude twisted my words.

Instead, maybe you should find another game since you don't know the definition, and common use of, words like "harass."


For the curious

Anyone who thinks using the word "harassment" to describe something happening in a video game is "outrageous, disrespectful, and unthinkable" - you'd being doing yourself a favor to read the definition so you'll no longer be ignorant of it's meaning:

Definition of Harass (definitions and usage directly from the dictionary - don't read if you don't like little things called "facts.")

(No matter how hard people try, these words don't only have criminal meanings)


Merriam-Webster

transitive verb

: EXHAUST, FATIGUE

I have been harassed with the toil of verse (or, I've been harassed by the toil of playing in the Star Citizen "verse" because of poor framerates - Grey)

b(1) : to annoy persistently

he was harassing his younger brother (or, he was harassing the player in the unarmed exploration ship with no cargo buy shooting at it - Grey)

: to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

she was being harassed by her classmates (or, he was being harassed by his wingmates - Grey)

claims that the police were unfairly harassing him (or, station security was harassing him by insisting on scanning his empty ship - Grey)

2 : to worry and impede by repeated raids

harassed the enemy (oh, I guess we can't call those attacking us in Elite "the enemy," the snowflakes might get upset lol - Grey)


Oxford Dictionary

harass

Subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation. (the NPC aggressively pressured, aka harassed, me via direct message to drop 5 tons of gold after interdicting me - Grey)

‘being harassed at work can leave you feeling confused and helpless’

Make repeated small-scale attacks on (an enemy)

‘the squadron's task was to harass the retreating enemy forces’ (oh no, with squadrons coming to Elite people might get harassed? What will the snowflakes do? lol - Grey)


More Elite Dangerous Examples - Grey:

I was exploring in my unarmed Anaconda when a ship interdicted me and demanded 5 units of gold. As I didn't have any gold, I ran, and after several minutes I was exhausted and fatigued from trying to evade the ship that was harassing me.

Wing, please harass the Thargoid Interceptor while I try to kill off the Scouts.

And finally

I posted a question asking if attacking unarmed players in-game was harassing them, aka harassment, and in return I was harassed by people who thought I was making light of those who are harassed in the real world. Funny part is, afterward many of these same people went on to discuss in-game pirating and killing with glee, not sensing the irony of their own statements ;-)

PS:

The grammar and spelling in my posts are never 100% correct, and I obviously don't have a problem with that.

If you do, I suggest you bite a rock.

Fly Safe and Proud Commanders!

o7

CMDR Greylock
The friendly and fun loving commander from the ELITEcast livestreams ;-)
https://youtube.com/thegamersshow1

 

[Darkfyre99]

No, we think somebody referring to normal gameplay as harassment is as silly as somebody referring to being grabbed during a wrestling match as harassment.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Please describe the method for determining exactly how much more powerful an attacker's ship must be before it crosses the threshold into harassment.

Common sense should dictate, it really doesn't take a rocket scientist.

 

[Leper Messiah]

No, that's just unfortunate.



Yep, it's a game. And as such, there are rules and a Code of Conduct in place. Combat logging, harassment, cyberbullying and abusive communications are all against those rules and Code of Conduct. As users of the Elite Dangerous product, we all agreed to those terms and it's down to Frontier to deem whether the rules have been broken - not you, not me or any other user.

Nope NOT unfortunate if the victim seems it so, the "aggressor" does NOT get to decide. If the victim is happy for the experience then it's not harrasment.

FD have created a game that ALLOWS bullying and harassment, FD do NOT define what those two things are. FD and almost all devs with MP games are woefully naive in what their games allow. It'll probably take a humongous lawsuit that if something bad enough happens (probably in the US) will ruin a dev and give all the others a kick up the .

Not necessarily context is everything, I recently took down the same player on a couple of separate occasions while he was in an unshielded, barely armoured ship and I was in A specced, fully engineered combat vessels and would have kept doing so had I bumped into him, the reason? We were on opposing sides in a BGS conflict and for the duration of that operation he and his wingmates were fair game.



I've had a few players log on me over the years, it's annoying but in the end it is indeed just pixels in a game.

Indeed the context is how the victim is playing and how they feel they have been treated, aggressor does not get to decide this. Common sense needs to be applied, I'm not going to supply the common sense if others do not possess it.

Top marks for being consistant in the Pixels issue, many are clearly not though (some of the most vociferous).

But ultimately those not wishing to experience the outright douchery of other people should play solo, but that's their decision and NOT mine. I just dislike it when those actively playing as a dbag try and justify it and get high and mighty when called on it, be a dbag and expect the fur to fly. end of.