The Right To And Value Of Dissent - Harrassment And Elite - And A Call For A Community Response

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This comment is going to touch upon a couple of interconnected issues, which have come into sharp, and unfortunate focus recently around Elite Dangerous. Hopefully we can have a mature discussion and response to it.

The Right Too, And Value of Dissent

With new patches on the way, here on the forums the Hype Train has begun to pick up steam again, and with it the rise in posts from players in love with the game still who are annoyed, even infuriated with criticism or scepticism. There seems to be the belief that anyone not supporting the game is somehow harming it, or attacking you personally for dissenting.

But I use the term "in love" not as an insult however but to draw out an illustration. Think about actual love; everyone has their own particular preferences; You cannot make someone believe they're attracted to someone else by persuasion, argument or dictatorship. You can perhaps silence them, so they can't express dissenting opinions to yours, but that doesn't make them change their mind, it just makes them angry they can't speak their mind; and would you feel happy if someone told you that you couldn't express love in your own way? Or even just "I don't want to do it like that?"

Pick a preference and now imagine that you're bombarded with examples of the opposite, whilst you aren't allowed to express your own. It should become obvious that a healthy community is one that not just allows free expression but also understand moderation in not attempting to drown out other voices with it's own. We are not all of one mind, and society should not attempt to be dominated by one.

Likewise someone in a healthy frame of mind should not feel threatened by the loves, or even dislikes of other people. After all, even the "straightest" person in the world is still reliant upon someone being attracted to the opposite of your desires in order to want to be with you. That doesn't make them inferior or alien; celebrate that difference, where ever it's found.

Here on the ED forums, just like so many gaming forums however, there seems to be a few people who can't tolerate the idea that people aren't attracted to what they enjoy personally playing. But so what? As long as they don't take away what you enjoy, why does it matter? Don't you want them to be happy? If so, then let them speak out about what they'd rather play with too.

That's constructive dissent; but critical dissent is valuable in it's own way too. How, exactly, do you say in a nice way that something is wrong, or even evil and just shouldn't be done...? Take for instance the recent story from Saudi Arabia for an extreme but effective illustration. How exactly do you say "journalists shouldn't be tortured and killed" in a comfortable way to those torturing and killing? "Journalists should be wined and dined" is both ridiculous and irrelevant... the only response is to say "That's wrong, and DON'T DO THAT."

Don't mistake the bluntness of the point with the bluntness of the person however; just as when your mother smacked your hand for trying to shove it into a plug socket it doesn't make your mother evil. Just sometimes the correct response isn't comfortable and shouldn't be comfortable. So it is with criticism even of a computer game; if people genuinely find something is harmful to their enjoyment of the game, they're going to be blunt. But you don't have to feel negatively towards the person. Focus on the issue. Try to understand if it's a genuine issue that can be fixed or just stopped, instead of attempting to turn it into yet another battleground against a real person.

Because...

Harrasment And Elite - An Example Of How Defending Something Easily Becomes Abusing Others

I'm going to be a little general here, although I do know the full story and it should start appearing in media and a few medium level youtubers videos soon. And it doesn't actually start with Elite, but it's also come here now, and deeply informs why I'm so personally sick of the assumption that you have to support something to be considered "Good".

It actually starts from Kickstarting another project, "Shroud of the Avatar". At the time for me, it was either backing Elite, or SotA, but Elite seemed to be so much further ahead in it's design I didn't feel it would need my support to get there. And full credit to Frontier, I don't feel like I've really missed out on not backing at the time, there's nothing except actually naming a system that I really wish I had today.

But its a decision I deeply regret to this date, because SotA not only was a dishonest kickstarter, and built a game that was based around a Mobile F2P income model, and real money trading of the Add On Store items between players instead of the story driven spiritual successor to the Ultima series we were promised... But that the combination of Crowd Funding cult like belief such a model tends to engender, and the real greed involved in it's operation led to an excessively toxic response to any criticism of the project. Check out the Reddits, the Steam forums, even the official forums for just how unhinged, or just hostile to any dissent the community has become.

And because I criticized the development, it's lead to a 2 year campaign of hacking, account shut downs, threats of violence and sexual assault, and just all round insane obsession with trying to harm me because I'm somehow evil for expressing dissent. For daring to somehow upset someone with a completely irrational, toxic form of "love" for a product. I won't say more on that wider experience, and you really don't want to wade into that sludge anyway, but what does that have to do with Elite?

Well, I knew my stalker was coming here when, (link removed) (read the comments in the archived copy of the article): I'd gone exploring to Beagle Point before then, and a friend let me know that someone was trying to destroy his NPC faction in game, United Imperial Dairies. By the time I'd got back, they'd lost a largely irrelevant system (Aiga) and someone was pushing against their home one, Cowini. I started doing the odd mission to keep them in control, and it became obvious that if ever I reclaimed any influence, the effort against them escalated... one weekend I decided to see how much time I could put in, and 8 hours of missioning later, someone put in even more work the next day to try and remove it all again. That's the kind of irrational sickness I've unfortunately had to try and deal with over the last 2 years in multiple other ways, and now someone was doing it in Elite too.

Ok, it could just be normal gameplay, and conflict is indeed part of the game; but I've spoken to the customer support team of Frontier since and they've confirmed that there's basically just two people doing any missions there. And one of them is me. Elsewhere across the internet where this bizarre campaign of stalking and hatred was being pursued, he'd tried to drop hints as to another player guild in game who was supposedly helping him, but no, it was indeed still just one other person at that point. They won't name the account, quite reasonably, but I'd bet anything it's my stalker yet again. No one else would likely even care who controlled an obscure backwater system.

And all because I'd criticised a completely different game.

Now I'm not saying anyone on the forums is this kind of unhinged... but I often see uncomfortable echoes of the same inability to accept even the existence of contradictory minds to your own in some of the claims that critics with their evil critical comments here are just not welcome here; that it's somehow an incredible moral evil that you puncture their bubble of "love"; and it makes me feel very, very sick indeed knowing the darkest side of such irrational devotion.

A Call For A Community Response Then:

On a personal level, I hope the decent players here will consider my public call for good souls to help counter-act the attempts to cause drama in Elite Dangerous too, and take part in supporting my friends faction. After posting it, unfortunately however the attacks on the faction just got worse still. Some friends also cross-posted that to the Elite Reddit; a few people wondered there if it was an attack on animal lovers, and just to clarify we've tend to play it as a satire of corporations and their lack of concern for everything including animals, but most of us actually are veggie/vegan or just animal rights believers. And just a heads up, if you see a [removed] on Reddit, it's my stalker trying to gaslight people as me I'm afraid... he's tried that twice now already. But back on point, it's my hope on the specifics of UID, we can show you can defeat a tiny number of unhealthily obsessive individuals with a genuine wider spread attempt to minimize griefing.

And on the forums, and in the wider sense, I hope people will at least try and understand that people who criticise the game aren't doing it as "haters" themselves; even some of the most risque language is just coming from a different perspective, rather than one that wants to harm you or take away what you have. And the thing is, if Frontier listens to them, rather than you "lovers", there's a chance they'll get more players back, or even new players, by offering something different. After all, Frontier already has you "lovers" and your support. Your voice has been already been heard and welcomed. But like with the example of who you physically love, if outsiders want inside they have to campaign, shout, even protest... and we should be welcoming that, not complaining about it.

And there will be ALOT of complaining about the coming Beta. I know I'm likely to be myself, because those exploration changes look horrible to me. And it already makes me sick to my stomach to think of where even trying to express that could lead. So I'm asking, nay begging the community here to try and have the maturity to deal with the inevitable dissatisfaction with a more constructive outlook. It's not an insult to you if people complain; critics are an artists best friend in fact, because they tell you where you can improve, rather than telling you that you shouldn't try any further.

I want Elite to do better, and have more players: Don't you? So when people say what will get them inside the door, or is keeping them outside, why not listen to them and see if they can be made to feel at home here too?
 
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Criticising criticism is an important part of, well... criticism. Otherwise you don't get anywhere. It's rather bold to assume that your personal opinion will bring more players to the game. A battle royal mode would also bring more players to the game, so what? Also it's unreasonable to assume that people are disagreeing with you because they want to defend the game while it's entirely possible that they just have a different opinion. I, for example, like the proposed exploration changes, not because I am a stupid fanboy who wants to harass you, but because I think the current implementation is rather boring.
 
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Holy berevity, Batman, that’s a wall of text.
Since you know your harasser file a police report, take appropriate legal action and never look back. Make an international incident of it if you must.

As for Elite... I am not responsible for anyone else’s fun but my own. If someone isn’t having fun, I’m not being paid to entertain them. I’ve heard more than a few “what would you think if if X% of the community (over-inflated by Y%) quit?” I’d still feel like “don’t let the door hit you where your maker split you.”
I don’t require anyone else to entertain me either.

I also don’t know what you expect the community here to do. No one is going to take up arms and fight your battles for you. We’re not going to make the bad person stop being bad.

I also suspect, though I can’t prove, they don’t actually know who you really are. If they do, my solution would be to purchase a firearm, obtain a CCW permit and tell them to bring it on. But that’s me.

If this is just “internet crap talk”, then just let it go. There’s nothing they can do. I’ve gotten more than my share of crap talk from voiceless, faceless and meaningless punks online and I know full well that all that bluster is just pure B-S. As empty and meaningless as the person spewing it.

I am a product of several decades ago though, so my skin is thick, and I don’t cry when RandomUser245419 says I’m a “dummy head and better off dead.” or whatever it takes to make them feel like one day they’ll have a girlfriend that doesn’t require inflating.
 
Wow, no way I'm reading all of that. I'm just gonna read the last 2 paragraphs instead.

Ok so, we're not gonna do that. This is what's actually going to happen. They're going to reveal the new features and some people are going to complain about them, and some people are going to defend them. Some people will complain real loud. And some people will defend real loud.

Basically what happens every time.
 
If you have evidence of harassment, you need to report it in detail and block the person. I think the problem you're going to have is linking the gameplay with the harassment since attacking a faction isn't inherently harassment. This is an unfortunate case of internet anonymity and people deal with these sorts of things all the time. One can never truly have free speech, unfortunately. There is always going to be some sort of consequence for voicing your opinion if someone considers it negative. All you can do is document the harassment and report it through proper channels. Good luck.
 
Criticising criticism is an important part of, well... criticism. Otherwise you don't get anywhere. It's rather bold to assume that your personal opinion will bring more players to the game. A battle royal mode would also bring more players to the game, so what? Also it's unreasonable to assume that people are disagreeing with you because they want to defend the game while it's entirely possible that they just have a different opinion. I, for example, like the proposed exploration changes, not because I am a stupid fanboy who wants to harass you, but because I think the current implementation is rather boring.

You're not wrong, but this is quite a bit more than having a different opinion unfortunately. You don't follow people to different forums and media to continue the fight and you don't bother people in game over it.
 
Criticising criticism is an important part of, well... criticism. Otherwise you don't get anywhere. It's rather bold to assume that your personal opinion will bring more players to the game. A battle royal mode would also bring more players to the game, so what? Also it's unreasonable to assume that people are disagreeing with you because they want to defend the game while it's entirely possible that they just have a different opinion. I, for example, like the proposed exploration changes, not because I am a stupid fanboy who wants to harass you, but because I think the current implementation is rather boring.

This is a perfect example of the kind of commentary that I mean; you make no effort to even accept the validity of contradictory opinions, and instead use an ad-hominem to try and prejudice what mine might be even though I at no point state anything except concern for how Exploration changes have been implemented. That in no way means I want it to stay the same. You just assume that, and tell me what I'm thinking, instead of asking and listening.

And then you say that well obviously we can assume bringing in new gameplay would bring in new players, but that it shouldn't because your view of what gameplay should be is more important. That's a "rather bold position" to assume too, isn't it? But we already know Frontier is doing something you like to keep you here.

Fortnite of course added a Battle Royale mode, and became the most popular game currently in the world; and Old Fortnite is still there. No one took it away from the old players. But now it's got a tonne more income to help keep the original game supported too. But apparently applying a purity test is far more important than actual success?

If you want Elite to genuinely do well, you should want that for it too. It doesn't sound like you do.
 
You're not wrong, but this is quite a bit more than having a different opinion unfortunately. You don't follow people to different forums and media to continue the fight and you don't bother people in game over it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but should never expect everyone else to agree with that opinion.

Many people are dedicated to ED and play it for so many hours that it eventually becomes, for them, an alternative existence. Others play it as a game and only as a game. It is impossible to reconcile the two.

For myself, ED has absorbed my play-time for more than 1,700 hours in VR...but so have FSX and Xplane and, as a retired person, I have the time to give to ED, along with RaceFactor 2 which enables me to drive highly realistic racing cars, also in VR.

However great (or weak, depending on one's perspective) ED may or may not be, it is still a game and should be treated as such.

The problems start when people forget that rel life still exists, imo.
 
OP If you at the 291 pages of response to the original Exploration announcement, and the 73 pages of response to the Beta announcement, you will see alot of dissent, applause, sniping, point taking, thread derailment, interesting quotes and comments.

In my opinion a healthy response to new news about this game.

If you also look at the people that post on these threads, I am not aware of any currently sporting the badge "I didn't obey forum rules" that the mods apply after people forget to follow the forum rules.

If you also look, there are a number of threads that have degenerated into handbags at dawn that the Mods quickly closed if people couldn't get a grip and calm down.

So i think this place, although full of people with widely differing points of view, expressing passionately there views and disagreeing with other people. That is a fundamental point of a forum.

The wonderful thing about the internet is that you can be anyone you want, cos you can choose your forum name, email address, date of birth, sex, orientation, fear of cats etc. and none of it has to be true.

This means people can (note not all people and note use of word can) quickly become extreme in their input on the internet.

It sounds like someone is doing this with you, so collect your evidence, keep a record of what happens when, and contact your local law enforcement, as cyber crime is taken seriously in most countries i believe.
 
This is a perfect example of the kind of commentary that I mean; you make no effort to even accept the validity of contradictory opinions, and instead use an ad-hominem to try and prejudice what mine might be even though I at no point state anything except concern for how Exploration changes have been implemented. That in no way means I want it to stay the same. You just assume that, and tell me what I'm thinking, instead of asking and listening.

And then you say that well obviously we can assume bringing in new gameplay would bring in new players, but that it shouldn't because your view of what gameplay should be is more important. That's a "rather bold position" to assume too, isn't it? But we already know Frontier is doing something you like to keep you here.

Fortnite of course added a Battle Royale mode, and became the most popular game currently in the world; and Old Fortnite is still there. No one took it away from the old players. But now it's got a tonne more income to help keep the original game supported too. But apparently applying a purity test is far more important than actual success?

If you want Elite to genuinely do well, you should want that for it too. It doesn't sound like you do.

What does Fortnite have to do with Elite? I couldn’t care less about the success or failure of Fortnite. Played it, decided it was garbage, deleted it. PUBG too. Neither have any bearing on Elite.

And how does any of this fit with how Exploration changes are being implemented?
Or some cyberstalker?
Or why I want a new Garmin chart plotter for my yacht?
See what I’m doing here?

Please, for all our sakes, make one concise point at a time.
 
This is a perfect example of the kind of commentary that I mean; you make no effort to even accept the validity of contradictory opinions, and instead use an ad-hominem to try and prejudice what mine might be even though I at no point state anything except concern for how Exploration changes have been implemented. That in no way means I want it to stay the same. You just assume that, and tell me what I'm thinking, instead of asking and listening.

And then you say that well obviously we can assume bringing in new gameplay would bring in new players, but that it shouldn't because your view of what gameplay should be is more important. That's a "rather bold position" to assume too, isn't it? But we already know Frontier is doing something you like to keep you here.

Fortnite of course added a Battle Royale mode, and became the most popular game currently in the world; and Old Fortnite is still there. No one took it away from the old players. But now it's got a tonne more income to help keep the original game supported too. But apparently applying a purity test is far more important than actual success?

If you want Elite to genuinely do well, you should want that for it too. It doesn't sound like you do.

Hmm, if that's a perfect example then I think the problem is you.
You seem to think that your personal opinion carries some weight, and then take any counter-opinion as a personal attack on you, and then create strawmen to counter them.
This is an actual example of what an ad-hominem looks like.

I had the misfortune of clicking your link and seeing the comments - it doesn't reflect well on anyone.
Quite honestly, if you feel that strongly about this other game, walk away. You got burned and it's a lesson learned.

I'm afraid that I'm not at all convinced that there is any link between what you think is going on with regard to that other game and what is happening to your friend's faction.
Your overreaction to a perfectly innocent post suggests a fertile imagination and more than a dash of paranoia.

Now I'm going to follow my own advice and walk away from this thread - nothing good will come of it.
 
i confess i haven't read the whole thing with proper attention, but i see where you're coming from. the news of you being stalked are appalling. it's a complex problem. my only advice here would be for you to just be above it. these people prey on weakness, just don't give it to them.

I want Elite to do better, and have more players: Don't you?

honestly? not necessarily. i'm actually a niche guy, worst scenario would be elite becoming a blockbuster. several decisions aimed at enlarging the audience have actually hurt the game imo. but then you're mixing up things here.

elite is essentially a solo game with some inconsistent multiplayer interaction sprinkled over. the community revolves around meta games for which elite is just the excuse. plus it's not really one community, but several. choose the one that suits you best.
 
This is a perfect example of the kind of commentary that I mean; you make no effort to even accept the validity of contradictory opinions, and instead use an ad-hominem to try and prejudice what mine might be even though I at no point state anything except concern for how Exploration changes have been implemented. That in no way means I want it to stay the same. You just assume that, and tell me what I'm thinking, instead of asking and listening.

And then you say that well obviously we can assume bringing in new gameplay would bring in new players, but that it shouldn't because your view of what gameplay should be is more important. That's a "rather bold position" to assume too, isn't it? But we already know Frontier is doing something you like to keep you here.

Fortnite of course added a Battle Royale mode, and became the most popular game currently in the world; and Old Fortnite is still there. No one took it away from the old players. But now it's got a tonne more income to help keep the original game supported too. But apparently applying a purity test is far more important than actual success?

If you want Elite to genuinely do well, you should want that for it too. It doesn't sound like you do.

He disagreed with you. You don't get to tell people that they have to sit and listen to you preach at them. He likes the new system that was proposed and doesn't care about your counter argument. And doesn't need to. This isn't a city council meeting.
 
It seems to me that this whole wall of text is salt from being opposed in various forms where-ever the OP goes. In game or otherwise. Seeing the attitude and arrogance of the OP, it seems more likely that he/she has a gifted ability of making people mad at him/her.

Having one person oppose you in a game and another oppose you in another have nothing to do with each other. The rest of the stuff sounds like paranoia. No, I'm not clicking the link.

You can block the person in the game and report them to the admins or authorities if you have any actual evidence of illegal or harassing actions. Otherwise, you open yourself to accusations and reports of libel, which is also against the law.
 
I think IndigoWyrd has highlighted a key point.

A post on a forum which covers more than one topic quickly gets confusing, people react/respond to different parts of the OP's post and then respond again to the different parts.

Your post has 3 parts to its title, to get valid discussion on these 3 items maybe you could have posted 3 seperate threads?

Also you response to Bablefisch's post is concerning, he expressed a view that is contrary to yours, he was trying to highlight that on the scale of the internet someone saying "Hay I have a great idea listen to me" is quite easily drowned out by many other people all saying the same thing about other bits.

What I type here is just my opinion, I don't expect it to change your or anyone's else's mind, but I put it here to contribute to the discussion. Especially as part 1 of your thread is about "The right to and value of dissent "

For the Harassment and Elite part I would say again record these instances, if they are in Elite game then you can report a player in game, or if on this forum, you can report to the Mods.

A call for a community response - this is the Elite forum, if someone posts an "I love the Sidewinder" thread you can bet your last brass farthing that someone will respond saying "The sidewinder is useless" or "but what about Elite feet!" or "Look at this picture of a cat" - it is just the nature of anonymous communication.
 
Holy berevity, Batman, that’s a wall of text.
Since you know your harasser file a police report, take appropriate legal action and never look back. Make an international incident of it if you must.

I don't wish to go into that too far here, except where it's involving Elite Dangerous and can be used as an attempt to try and get the "Forum Dads" to see that irrational "positivity" is just as toxic as the critics they rail against when taken too far. It is, for instance, no surprise that one of the most infamous here was the very first responder, and has already expressed the thought that his view of gameplay is far more important than say the Battle Royale perspective.

However, just to clarify on this, international law isn't as well developed as people might assume for the internet age, it's powerless unless you get a real name and address anyway, and even if you have one, not every jurisdiction makes it easy or in the US case, affordable. I know, because I've already done this. The current results should be appearing in the media soon.

I also don’t know what you expect the community here to do. No one is going to take up arms and fight your battles for you. We’re not going to make the bad person stop being bad.

I explained that; it would be nice for some to pop by and help out with my friend's in game faction, because trying to keep it afloat against a lunatic who has no job but an irrational obsession isn't much fun, or easy. Not and do all the paperwork for the processes just mentioned and work a real job and...

I also suspect, though I can’t prove, they don’t actually know who you really are. If they do, my solution would be to purchase a firearm, obtain a CCW permit and tell them to bring it on. But that’s me.

Yeah they do, because it started with hacking into my email address. But the above is a very American, and libertarian approach, and not surprising considering the rest of your post; Guns aren't legal here though. But even if they were, the answer to someone threatening to assault your family isn't to buy a gun, it's to buy all of them bullet proof vests and hope he isn't a good shot. The idea that some lone hero can just take on the "bad people" by themselves is the myth of the Old West gunfighter. Real life just isn't like that.

In the case of ED, the player faction isn't even mine. I'm in it though, hence the attention from a single user coming in now. Again, it would be nice if any players reading this fancy popping around and being a shield. A communal response. And you can fight against it in game if you fancy some fun too! If nothing else, it's impossible to personally target someone in a crowd. And this is a bloody computer game, we don't need that here too anyway... is that really so hard a request to understand? "Hey folks, it would be nice if you could help out?"


If this is just “internet crap talk”, then just let it go. There’s nothing they can do. I’ve gotten more than my share of crap talk from voiceless, faceless and meaningless punks online and I know full well that all that bluster is just pure B-S. As empty and meaningless as the person spewing it.

I am a product of several decades ago though, so my skin is thick, and I don’t cry when RandomUser245419 says I’m a “dummy head and better off dead.” or whatever it takes to make them feel like one day they’ll have a girlfriend that doesn’t require inflating.

It's not, but again, not relevant here. The wider point is though; people who are not happy, even in pain, are not going to be fun to listen too. But that's when you should listen to them the most. But online, and the "Forum Dads" here in particular often seem personally outraged that people want to express dissatisfaction. Like it's somehow making your experience worse that they do. In a product that needs enough players purchasing in the store to keep it around for everyone though, it's self destructive to ignore people's potential unhappiness. That's just pure business sense.

So I'm just posting this to put my voice out there too, on two different but connected issues.
 
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