Frontier you talked about the "traveler" style of exploration and misunderstood one key thing

[Florenus]

Thanks for a response.

That you couldn't come up with a different solution meant that having the system schematic available after a honk was the only solution. That's basically it. The ideal solution was already there.

What you've done is basically hide the system map behind the timewall and removed the agency of making a snap decision as to whether it's worth spending time in a star system.

ALL the changes are brilliant and you've done a great job - except for removing the snap decision agency we enjoyed - the solution was always there and you removed it.

From my point of view this is almost like arguing that having the possibility to destroy enemy ships by entering "kill" console command is better than having to shoot at them.
The old way wasn't a system - This part of the game was simply unifinished and filled with placeholder solutions.
People got accustomed to it, learned to use it, now there will be time for adjustement, but for me this is Exploration 1.0

 

[Spaceman Si]

Nope. You won't be able to tell those things. It's one of the things we are gonna lose. We all have different opinions on that, I'm sure. I'm totally the same type of explorer as the OP as evidenced by my videos from 2014 to the present day, so I will also find this a hard hitting change. That said, I'm totally ok with it, as I feel it will make the game better overall. Also, there's gonna be a lot of other things to discover that will make this change worthwhile. Just my opinion of course, but it's an opinion from someone who shares the same exploration style as Crusina.

Ah... Thought not

You've got the advantage of having seen this in action, so I'm encouraged by your assesment of it to some extent, but without the benefit of getting my hands on it in beta I'm very unsure that this will add to my gameplay.

I still can't see why the sysmap reveal without planet composition / tagging (as it is now!) couldn't co-exist with the new scanner to find the composition / tagging (and any other new and "exciting" things that are out there)

Beta will be key...

 

[babelfisch]

But a picture speaks a thousand words OA

Current: Enter system, Honk - see system schematic - make a decision on whether it's worth spending more time in the system or not, depending on what you're looking for. Result: takes a mere few seconds to determine there's landable planets/moons. Multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1 or 2% of those which have something worth our time going to see.

New: Enter system. Go into FSS mode. Honk. No system schematic. Look at squiggles. There might one some gas giants here. Dial to Radio Gas Giant[tm]. Focus. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant.. maybe one or two moons. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that one's landable but doesn't look worth visiting. Result: Takes a crapload more time than the current way to come to a conclusion. Now multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1-2% of systems worth sticking around in.

It seems like you can see if there is a gas giant with moons very quickly without scanning first. You can even see if the gas giant has a ring. That's the impression I got from the livestream.

 

[Andovar]

I would argue that A) the snap decision you're describing is still fundamentally possible with the signal spectrum, and B) players have more agency now simply because there are more decision branches with the new system then there were with the old simplistic one.

This is my thinking as well. We'll just have to see how it plays out when we get access.
The nice thing is there is always the option for them to tweak the scanner output post-release, making some space oddities more "revealable" on the frequency graph.

On another note, I wonder how they will reveal other stars within a system? They seemed to be pretty clear on the scanner not revealing stellar bodies. So how does it work in systems with stars past the main star at the drop in point?

 

[Drazkul]

Thanks for that, but one question Adam:

Can the new FSS be accessed while the FSD is charging?

It may seem like a minor point, but the answer to this means a LOT to the traveler explorer playstyle.

Cant see why it shouldn't be able to. Everything else is able to be opened while the FSD is charging as far as I'm aware

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Or surface POIs, or geological anomalies, or any new stellar features being added in chpt 4 (or future additions) that the Honk has/could never reveal. Hyperbolic reductionism does not suit you.

Surface POIs are not part of the FSS gameplay, they are part of the mapping gameplay - same as geological anomalies.

New stellar features (space weather and things like that) are new. They don't show up in the current system map - as they currently not exist, but these things indeed are something for the FSS gameplay.
But that part of the FSS gameplay could have been added to the game without affecting the system map, just like discovering USSs. Would have been a nice addition to the current way of scanning a system.
Honk with the ADS, then FSS for anomalies and USSs, then mapping with probes.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Surface POIs are not part of the FSS gameplay, they are part of the mapping gameplay - same as geological anomalies.

The FSS gameplay gives you hints of what is found on those planets though such as geological activity, biological, technological or anomolies. The probes pinpoint them for you.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Surface POIs are not part of the FSS gameplay, they are part of the mapping gameplay - same as geological anomalies.

New stellar features (space weather and things like that) are new. They don't show up in the current system map - as they currently not exist, but these things indeed are something for the FSS gameplay.
But that part of the FSS gameplay could have been added to the game without affecting the system map, just like discovering USSs. Would have been a nice addition to the current way of scanning a system.
Honk with the ADS, then FSS for anomalies and USSs, then mapping with probes.

That's how I thought things were going to happen. Sadly...

 

[Tifu]

After watching the youtube recording of the livestream, there was just no way the god-honk was going to survive in any form without invalidating the incoming & new explorer mechanics.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Surface POIs are not part of the FSS gameplay, they are part of the mapping gameplay - same as geological anomalies.

Not true - the FSS body scan clearly shows whether there are surface POIs or not.

 

[Bier00t]

I love everything except for one thing...I just don't get how this system will be "almost as fast"




I can not believeon my last trip where I visited thousands of systems that this new system would have taken a similar amount of time. Many systems have 50+ bodies and I have to individually select every single one of them?



When FD started talking about travelers I got hype because I thought they understood...and then they go "well using the ADS would give you the same amount of credits as before." and my heart completely stopped.



This isn't about money. I don't care if there's an earth like. I don't care to only scan valuable bodies. The earth like is only valuable to me if it's somewhere cool. Like say in orbit around a gas giant...or inside a planetary nebula.




I AM ONLY looking for systems that are interesting. And the thing about this game is that an interesting system can be anything. Stars, planets, belts, rings, etc. It can be distance, size, color, proximity, mountains, rifts, etc.




This means in order to find these planets you can NOT skip anything. Not a single planet.




FD is effectively taking all the information we had before and forcing us to press a and look around.




Not having to travel to bodies is a plus. mapping planets is a plus. Everything they added is a plus imo EXCEPT for the fact that they missed out why some people like me "travel" as a exploration style.




Because all the information for nearly everything we needed was avaliable from the ADS scanner. Most importantly a basic look at the look of the planets and their distances.




Their is no conceivable way this new system is "just as/almost as fast." when we are talking thousands upon thousands of systems NOBODY has been to before for months on end. I literally have to scan every single planet, in every single system for months on end, individually just to make sure i don't miss anything.




This filter system literally does nothing to decrease my time. I do not have the luxury of skipping any planet. This isn't about money.




I know what I am doing. I know how to find interesting places. And I never needed to fly to a planet to figure that out, I had all the info i needed from the current ads system.




This is leaving me incredibly stressed out. Because when I explore I sometimes detour for 15kly just to visit a single system and then double back. I move fast, I know where I want to go. I sometimes bookmark over 100+ systems in a journey (always deleting and adding new bookmarks for lack of space) and I visit every single one of them. My last major trip lasted for months and I visited over 100 planetary nebula near the core of the galaxy. By zig zagging up and down and all over I made a trip last for months visiting over 5,000 systems. And I looked at the system map for every single one of those places.




And with near 100% certainty I can say didn't skip or miss a single system that was interesting that I jumped too. I always have a drive to go somewhere else, there is always one more location that's thousands of ly away.




Everything about the exploration coming is brilliant imo except for the time needed to scan systems. I don't care about money. My system I found that has a ice planet so close to the rings of a gas giant, that moves fast enough in its orbit you can literally watch it orbit around the gas giant...is worth more then any sum anyone could give to me.




But the scanner would just say it's an icy world near a gas giant. I wouldn't know it was valuable but I knew within 15 seconds of scanning with the current ADS that I had something potentially special. Then I flew to it and my mind was blown. You can literally fly from the rings into the atmosphere of that planet (if atmospheric flight was possible). And yes the new system WOULD tell me distance and proximity and all that as well but I'd have to have had to scan the approximately 40 other bodies that came before it to know that. Individually.




No dss was needed. no probes. no messing with filters or anything. I knew before I even flew there it was something special.




FD you are NOT making a mistake making these changes to exploration. But I do think you are making a mistake by not thinking about these large trips. If you truly believe that this system is almost as fast. Then I will right here, beg anyone with a PC to compare a 5kly trip right now vs the new system with every single body shown on the system map.



And no! I do NOT claim to speak for everyone. I don't speak for every explorer. I don't expect everyone to play my way. And yes my style of exploration is valid and does not make not "not a true explorer".

And for the love of god ANYONE who tries to tell me it's about money gets instantly blocked. Money means nothing.

Frontier I beg of you. Please find some way to compare two trips of similar length and how long it takes and take that into consideration. Or if I'm completely wrong, TELL ME. Tell me why I am wrong.

Just don't leave me sitting here worried like this.

And again, THIS IS NOT an attack on you or the new update. I love EVERYTHING except for the possibility of a large increase in time preventing me from going to more and more places due to time constraints. A trip similar to my other ones doesn't seem as fun knowing that I have to individually scan every single object in every single system thousands of times over months.

Excatly this.

What I have to add:
If we cant have instant system map please at least consider getting blacked out planets back - https://imgur.com/a/3vOKIDj

I also would like to add what DSS, ADS and probes should reveal separately:

- Advanced Discovery Scanner should reveal all orbital information (like orbital eccentrity, inclination, arg of periapsis, rotational period, orbital period), radius, position of planets for Orrery, maybe masses of bodies, maybe low res pictures of bodies
- Detailed Surface Scanner used from afar should add more to that - temperature, atmospheric pressure, volcanism, definately low res picture for system map, info on surface features
- using probes to map planets should add even more to that - atmosphere composition, type, volcanism, material composition, location of surface features and maybe in the future high res pictures of planets for Orrery

I think it should be like that because it is connected to how actual scientists can discover planets right now - things you can do from afar and things you can do from close by...

 

[StuartGT]

The ability to identify different visual patterns is required in the new and the old system.

The old system might be at the first glance easier as it isn't as abstract as the new system, but that's all.

Agreed. Both require learning a skill, just one is easier to learn than the other.

And I think anybody making comments on a forum or playing a computer game has the rather basic ability to differentiate between visual patterns.

Careful now. There are some really dumb people on the internet.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

But a picture speaks a thousand words OA

Current: Enter system, Honk - see system schematic - make a decision on whether it's worth spending more time in the system or not, depending on what you're looking for. Result: takes a mere few seconds to determine there's landable planets/moons. Multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1 or 2% of those which have something worth our time going to see.

New: Enter system. Go into FSS mode. Honk. No system schematic. Look at squiggles. There might one some gas giants here. Dial to Radio Gas Giant[tm]. Focus. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant. Oh look no moons. Focus on next gas giant.. maybe one or two moons. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that moon's not landable. Oh that one's landable but doesn't look worth visiting. Result: Takes a crapload more time than the current way to come to a conclusion. Now multiply that by 1000's of star systems and the 1-2% of systems worth sticking around in.

Is Radio Gas Giant an AM (Brit: Medium Wave) or FM station?

If it turns out to be FM, *run*!

Plot twist: Objects are intelligent, and troll us by running pirate or "numbers stations".

 

[StuartGT]

I would argue that A) the snap decision you're describing is still fundamentally possible with the signal spectrum, and B) players have more agency now simply because there are more decision branches with the new system then there were with the old simplistic one. The new system has three decision branches: 1) whether to scan, 2) whether to travel there 3) whether to land. In the previous simplistic mechanic, steps 1&2 are combined, resulting in fewer choices and hence less agency. Further more, the new system actually has meaningful consequences in its decision trees. Instead of making travel necessary to scan planet on a vague hunch based on an blurry image, the choice to travel there is now a consequence of solid and easily obtainable solid data. Likewise with the decision to scan or move on.

A very good post, +rep

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

The FSS gameplay gives you hints of what is found on those planets though such as geological activity, biological, technological or anomolies. The probes pinpoint them for you.

Ok, I missed that information.

My issue is that FDev decided for an all or nothing approach for system scanning and not a layered approach where every step adds more information.

Currently we have the ASD that reveals the system map. The next step is detailed surface scans that reveal the composition and exact nature of the object. And that's it.

The new system combines the ASD and DSS into the FSS. A honk now activates the FSS and then the player does identifying of the object and the detailed surface scan in on step.
FDev could have opted for a long range DSS that works like the new FSS that reveals surface information and the information about geological, biological and alien anomalies.

I think finding anomalies on planets could be implemented into the current system as it is just that, an addition to the surface scan.

 

[Marcus Tullius]

If all honk-travelers could leave the game and the forum because of the new exploration mechanics, both the game and the forum would be much more healthy places. Unfortunately they will stay here, contradicting to any change that will make the game more interesting and engaging.

 

[Maro-Val]

I myself share OPs exploring style and i admit i was inspired by her video and also Ant's videos years back, so now i can say that she is not alone in what she is saying.
I find it very convenient that until now i could switch to "travelling" mode and go from A to B, because i also allmost always had a destination even if that was 40K LY away or my entire journey was composed by lots of "small" destinations, that i selected from edsm or on the fly by exploring the galaxy map for hours, when i was resting on some planet.
Also i never lost an interesting site or view or planet, because of the honk that gave me the oppurtunity to get a good idea of the system, while the fsd was charging.

And here i post a video, where i did an exploration trip in that way with main destination Beagle Point, but with many many smaller destinations in between to visit other cmdrs POI's and where the honk revealed some very interesting POIs of my own, that otherwise would have certainly missed.

So in OPs defence, of her exploration style.

[video=youtube_share;vDPHssViFBM]https://youtu.be/vDPHssViFBM[/video]

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Ok, I missed that information.

My issue is that FDev decided for an all or nothing approach for system scanning and not a layered approach where every step adds more information.

Currently we have the ASD that reveals the system map. The next step is detailed surface scans that reveal the composition and exact nature of the object. And that's it.

The new system combines the ASD and DSS into the FSS. A honk now activates the FSS and then the player does identifying of the object and the detailed surface scan in on step.
FDev could have opted for a long range DSS that works like the new FSS that reveals surface information and the information about geological, biological and alien anomalies.

I think finding anomalies on planets could be implemented into the current system as it is just that, an addition to the surface scan.

Its still a layered approach, just done differently. I much prefer the look of the new over the old. It was always going to be a subjective change which was not going to please everyone. I am just surprised you are one of the ones not pleased.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Have you seen all the different lines that are represented on the spectral analysis then?

You don't want to know how many I've seen in RL, like SA-2 lock... We would orbit just west of the inter-German border, trying to get them to light us up.

 

[DaggerSnake]

I have been waiting for this update for a long time before venturing out on an exploration trip. The only long distance I’ve done was a 7k lightyear passanger mission.

The loop of jump, scan, look at system map, move on was clearly a place holder. There was no sense of discovery due to skill as a CMDR. Sure, there was a tingle of excitement to find an untagged system with interesting bodies. But there was nothing to it. Just luck.

I think it’s pretty reasonable in both gameplay and immersion that when you enter a system, there should be some different leveles scanning (from system wide to detailed surface), analysis and interpretation of data and then descision making to actually discover something. An explorer should spend s little time in a system performing some analysis.

jump, honk, glance, jump has never felt like exploration to me.

At the end of the day, just give the new system a go. That’s why they have a beta.