Do we still see ED as being THE space game in 12 months?

While Evochron series is cool, and the team is mostly just one dude, I feel people misunderstand the non-linear relation between resources and development. The first million does a lot more good than the second, and getting the foundations right is a lot easier than the stuff on top. For example, you could give the man a million bucks, but he would come nowhere near Stellar Forge.

True absolutely. The stellar forge is an amazing thing (it's still my nº1 reason why I play ED), as well as other things in ED are top notch, as I said I don't believe any other space game can be a serious rival to ED in the foreseable future, but I wonder if FD would have been able to create the stellar forge if it was just one man?.. We'll never know :)

IMO, Evochron biggest demise is the lack of production value (art, sound, some missing things like proper landing/docking, many UIs look poor, well, lacks overall "refinement"). Many things work very well, but they look bad, ending up making those things seem not as good as they actually are.

Among other things, Evochron has a much more detailed space and atmospheric flight model than EDs for instance, it has atmospheric worlds with atmospheric conditions affecting flight for many years now, you can't even simply hover on a planet, the ship will stall if speed can't compensate for the planet's gravity, entry speed/angle matters when entering gravity, etc. Heck, I could play on an atmospheric planets, fly over water and then land on an island city after making atmospheric entry... since 8 years ago. It also had a walking mech for walking on planets. It also has a very extensive feature list, which again gets a bit obfuscated by unpolished UI and big learning curve. Main issue is that most of the things look quite poor and rough, and whatever people may say, in games looks aren't everything but they DO matter, at least up to a point. I do think Evochron has excellent foundations, but the stuff on top is what's lackluster.

I'm not saying that Evochron is a superior game to ED, but seeing how a one-man army was able to create some extraordinary things by himself for quite a long time now, I do wonder what could have been if he had a large team and some spare millions.
 
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See im not impressed by the stellar forge. I would prefer a smaller and more detailed hand crafted galaxy than to scale one filled a million rocky dust balls that all look and feel the same. How many systems out there consists of a single red star with no planets?

And no, I'm not getting my hopes up for atmospheric planets or space legs. Like SC I don't think if will ever make it off the production line.
 
See im not impressed by the stellar forge. I would prefer a smaller and more detailed hand crafted galaxy than to scale one filled a million rocky dust balls that all look and feel the same. How many systems out there consists of a single red star with no planets?

And no, I'm not getting my hopes up for atmospheric planets or space legs. Like SC I don't think if will ever make it off the production line.


I hope you mean from a gameplay perspective, because from a technical perspective I think its pretty awesome. Of course, technics do not make a game.
 
Yes, I'd rather have 50 extraordinarily detailed, practically hand-crafted star systems filled with detailed economies, unique designs and architecture, interesting characters - some randomized, others with set names, faces, and personalities - and dozens of ways to interact with it all, than some procedurally-generated grab-bag of SCR-AX-1234 Beta Hydroxy Kappa A-12s, which amount to slightly different colored globes arranged in theoretically infinite random orders in void space, with absolutely no variety in actual gameplay interactions between them all.

Granted, the vision I've described above doesn't really exist yet. The closest thing that comes to mind is Rebel Galaxy Outlaw.

But, back on point, the sheer amount of random numbers and colored balls in Elite does absolutely nothing for me. It's simply not impressive. I'd go so far as to say the focus on *VASTNESS* is inimical to compelling gameplay. Elite: Dangerous keeps coyly teasing it'll give us that at some point, and it never really has. The Season Four improvements are welcome, and they look okay, I'll give them that, but these are the sorts of things we should have had two years ago. Mining and exploration have been functionally void of actual gameplay for all that time, and Frontier considered them "final" and "finished" in that state. Combat? It's still farming waves of drone AIs in designated resource zones - the resources, actually, being the drone AIs themselves, funnily enough.

I don't care how "big" your universe is, if it's as shallow as a puddle.

Regarding Evochron and the lovely fantasy of it having Star Citizen's budget, having a huge team full of talent does not necessarily guarantee a better game. In fact, the potential for squabbling can actually serve as a serious detriment. Going entirely on the notion that Evochron's development can be strictly "turbo boosted," yes, I'd say that Elite: Dangerous wouldn't really stand a chance against a "supercharged" Evochron. Evochron's focus is laser-like, and there are no stupid distractions holding it back (no MMO-lite junk, no multiplayer PvP metagame junk, no grind put there for the sake of it, no microtransactions, no quasi-FTP garbage) from becoming what it wants to be.

For example, it's got multiplayer, but the experience is pretty much single-player with other humans playing with (or against) you. It's practically the opposite of what they did with Elite: Dangerous. In Elite: Dangerous, they built the game around a MMO-lite multiplayer setting, which was only ever barely realized. All they really took away from the MMO philosophy was that grind can substitute for content. To compare, Evochron was built around single-player, and the multiplayer was framed around that - in other words, it's old-school multiplayer by design. Evochron is more like an old-school space sim without superfluous MMO nonsense, only with real people optionally in the background. It's just plainly the better game, from a fundamental design standpoint. My only regret is discovering Mercenary and Legacy after having discovered Elite: Dangerous. I never knew that "the Riftspace guy" had taken things to the level he did, and made a fully-fledged space sim out of his project.
 
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Yes, I'd rather have 50 extraordinarily detailed, practically hand-crafted star systems filled with detailed economies, unique designs and architecture, interesting characters

sure, who wouldn't? But who the hell makes those? Crobber can't even manage one in seven incredibly odd years. Bethesda will probably pull off 5 with Starfield and still be mocked for it's Bethesda-isms and NPCs.

I don't care how "big" your universe is, if it's as shallow as a puddle.

What game hasn't been shallow as a puddle? We can't pull off remotely good AI in any game for any kind of life. We can do fetch quests, spreadsheets, and multiplayer jerkfests.
 
sure, who wouldn't? But who the hell makes those? Crobber can't even manage one in seven incredibly odd years. Bethesda will probably pull off 5 with Starfield and still be mocked for it's Bethesda-isms and NPCs.



What game hasn't been shallow as a puddle? We can't pull off remotely good AI in any game for any kind of life. We can do fetch quests, spreadsheets, and multiplayer jerkfests.

This. We are currently at the point we can have extraordinarily detailed, practically hand-crafted worlds of, say, 300 km^2. "Just 50 systems" is absurd. As soon as you think on that scale, you need PG. And as soon as a system works, you can always let it generate more.
 
sure, who wouldn't? But who the hell makes those? Crobber can't even manage one in seven incredibly odd years. Bethesda will probably pull off 5 with Starfield and still be mocked for it's Bethesda-isms and NPCs.



What game hasn't been shallow as a puddle? We can't pull off remotely good AI in any game for any kind of life. We can do fetch quests, spreadsheets, and multiplayer jerkfests.

1) Who wouldn't? Well, ostensibly the diehards who think Elite: Dangerous' "size and scale" is a paramount achievement, and any deviation from this or lack of respect for it is tantamount to high treason. There are those who believe that infinite randomly-generated background filler is an ample substitute for carefully-constructed, hand-built environments. Me? I just think it's lazy schlock. Randomly generated background is well and good, but cannot stand on its own. Developers have been leaning on procedural generation like a crutch these last five years. If the poop-brown "color correction" era was the Dark Age of gaming, then the era of procedural generation is the "Dark...er Age."

Back to Evochron to illustrate my point. I'm not going to say that Evochron's world is ridiculously over-detailed (though it probably would be if the developer had the extra help to get that done), but someone on this thread used its lack of randomly-generated infinity as a blemish against the game, in Elite: Dangerous' favor. My answer to that is as stated above: infinite repetitions of the same, slightly differently-colored content does not equate substance. As background filler, it's fine. But there's no substance to Elite: Dangerous' vast galaxy, and there's not even that much that's truly "special" about it, either. There's nothing to do with it, and therefore it's far from an inherent advantage. If I want vast, detailed exploration, I'll boot up Space Engine, whose procedural generation eats Elite's for lunch all day every day anyway. Even if Elite had SE's level of fidelity, there's still no game in randomized heightmaps, no matter how pretty they are.

Star Citizen is failing because of gross incompetence, not because their primary scope or vision is wrong. They picked the wrong engine, simply due to it being able to make the prettiest tech demos (I wish I were kidding). Their leadership is incompetent, their dev teams disorganized and unfocused. They're not failing because hand-crafted is the wrong way to go.

Privateer is an example of a hand-crafted game with a contained, "small" worldspace with flavor and character. Primitive today, but an example that illustrates my point. You feel like a pilot in that world. In this game, you feel like an AI controlling an armed cargo delivery drone, and the world is droll, flavorless, and completely unbelievable.

2) There are plenty of games that offer depth and entertainment in nearly equal measure. Unfortunately, most of those games came from an earlier time, where developers were focused on details and fun factor rather than glossy graphics and "scratching the impulse itch."

We are currently at the point we can have extraordinarily detailed, practically hand-crafted worlds of, say, 300 km^2.

What is your argument here? Random generation is the literal antithesis of "hand-crafted." More, more, more is the problem with procedural generation. Why do you need more, more, more if you can do infinitely more with less by orders of magnitude? Realistically speaking, you couldn't fully explore a planet the size and scale of Earth in less than years of intense effort. If we could get planets with even a percentage of the depth and detail of Earth, you'd have more - and vastly richer - content than a trillion randomly slapped together spheres whose only real differences are heightmaps and coloration.

Put simply, I'd rather have, say, 50 contained systems in a bubble stacked with depth, detail, and things to do, than 50,000,000,000 randomized backdrops where the gameplay experience is exactly the same as anywhere else so long as you have a space station and an accretion disk somewhere.
 
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Yes, I'd rather have 50 extraordinarily detailed, practically hand-crafted star systems filled with detailed economies, unique designs and architecture, interesting characters - some randomized, others with set names, faces, and personalities - and dozens of ways to interact with it all, than some procedurally-generated grab-bag of SCR-AX-1234 Beta Hydroxy Kappa A-12s, which amount to slightly different colored globes arranged in theoretically infinite random orders in void space, with absolutely no variety in actual gameplay interactions between them all.

Granted, the vision I've described above doesn't really exist yet. The closest thing that comes to mind is Rebel Galaxy Outlaw.

But, back on point, the sheer amount of random numbers and colored balls in Elite does absolutely nothing for me. It's simply not impressive.
Procedural generation is especially boring for intelligent people. My brain is really good at pattern recognition (which is a large part of any IQ test and also a video game skill), so when looking long enough at generated stuff, it intuitively recognizes all the patterns and repeats. At that moment, the "vast universe" illusion falls apart and gets deducted to what it really is: a small number of templates fed by a PRNG. Once you got there, you can't unsee it.
 
Procedural generation is especially boring for intelligent people. My brain is really good at pattern recognition (which is a large part of any IQ test and also a video game skill), so when looking long enough at generated stuff, it intuitively recognizes all the patterns and repeats. At that moment, the "vast universe" illusion falls apart and gets deducted to what it really is: a small number of templates fed by a PRNG. Once you got there, you can't unsee it.

Maybe the Milky Way is like that. Maybe the entire Universe is like that, all just variations on a theme. Of course there will be differences on atmospheric and life supporting worlds, but out of 400 billion systems patterns will emerge. After all, everything is made from the same tiny building blocks.
 
Procedural generation is especially boring for intelligent people. My brain is really good at pattern recognition (which is a large part of any IQ test and also a video game skill), so when looking long enough at generated stuff, it intuitively recognizes all the patterns and repeats. At that moment, the "vast universe" illusion falls apart and gets deducted to what it really is: a small number of templates fed by a PRNG. Once you got there, you can't unsee it.

The fact you see order to a greater or lesser degree, doesn't make you less or more intelligent, generally.. Only makes you more able to focus on patterns/things and be able to appreciate how things are put together. How many variations are there to a box or circle.
Nature repeats itself and there is nothing greater than nature. Repetition is everywhere, where have I heard that before.. ;)

Really, for me, its how each person can push aside that part of all of us, to allow for imagination. Playing games needs more imagination than intelligence, I would argue. Much more..

I feel that if repetition is a problem to players, then video gaming might be something to think about putting down. :p

I played in Elite in 84 and believe me, if you couldn't see beyond 'dots and dashes' then you couldn't play the game. A measure of your own intelligence perhaps, and moreso imagination (they go hand in hand for truly normal intelligent people, don't they, or they should do anyway), is the fact you could see in those dots & dashes, a whole universe.
 
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verminstar

Banned
Tis weird when ye think about it...back when I was a kid, sci fi didnt generally need to sound in any way plausable...it simply relied on our imagination filling in the blanks with fairy dust and, well sciencey stuff we cant explain because its sci fi. It fuelled the imaginations of my current generation, and Im 47 so Im talking about seeing the original Star Trek in the cinema as well as all the Star Wars.

Those were the originals and still considered the best by many in my age bracket...those of us who built spaceships from cereal boxes and the old fairy liquid bottles that looked like a rocket after some clumsy customization and a huge sprinkling of imagination.

Seems like the smarter we all got, the less we used our imaginations because now, things need to be plausable. The technology of the future gets explained to us in subtle ways in an effort to make us believe that the future could be our reality when we catch up. Think back to those old Star Trek episodes where Spock was literally holding an iPhone with a few choice apps installed. As it stands now, Spocks version was pretty rubbish in comparison to what we have today.

Sci fi was more fun when they used imagination and put stuff in that defied our logic and rewrote the rulebook on what we believe is possible. I vote fer more imagination...cos being smarter aint really that much fun. Accurate yes, but then is it still sci fi at all?

Its late...Im off me face and talkin ballix...sad in a way, tragic in another ^
 
Unfortunately yes. I will be playing the new Witcher DLC, Cyberpunk 2077, Fallout 76, and dabbling in Conan Exiles too much to notice though.
 
Procedural generation is especially boring for intelligent people. My brain is really good at pattern recognition (which is a large part of any IQ test and also a video game skill), so when looking long enough at generated stuff, it intuitively recognizes all the patterns and repeats. At that moment, the "vast universe" illusion falls apart and gets deducted to what it really is: a small number of templates fed by a PRNG. Once you got there, you can't unsee it.

And what better demonstration and use of your brainpower than to vacuously strut your stuff on some random forum thread in a corner of the internet dedicated to a game company whose games you don't play.
 
Tis weird when ye think about it...back when I was a kid, sci fi didnt generally need to sound in any way plausable...it simply relied on our imagination filling in the blanks with fairy dust and, well sciencey stuff we cant explain because its sci fi. It fuelled the imaginations of my current generation, and Im 47 so Im talking about seeing the original Star Trek in the cinema as well as all the Star Wars.

Those were the originals and still considered the best by many in my age bracket...those of us who built spaceships from cereal boxes and the old fairy liquid bottles that looked like a rocket after some clumsy customization and a huge sprinkling of imagination.

Seems like the smarter we all got, the less we used our imaginations because now, things need to be plausable. The technology of the future gets explained to us in subtle ways in an effort to make us believe that the future could be our reality when we catch up. Think back to those old Star Trek episodes where Spock was literally holding an iPhone with a few choice apps installed. As it stands now, Spocks version was pretty rubbish in comparison to what we have today.

Sci fi was more fun when they used imagination and put stuff in that defied our logic and rewrote the rulebook on what we believe is possible. I vote fer more imagination...cos being smarter aint really that much fun. Accurate yes, but then is it still sci fi at all?

Its late...Im off me face and talkin ballix...sad in a way, tragic in another ^

There are many young boys who want to be a pirate.
But every young pirate wants to be CMDR Verminstar.
 
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