Modes Is attacking clean players (not npcs) in Open harassment?

[hypervoodoo77]

To be honest though in the end you can discuss this matter forever .
Both sides to me have legitimate arguments I can relate to.
But it does seem the developer have a clear stance on the matter so I guess this I just how it's going to be.
Just means more pg for me but to each his own.

O7

 

[Dietger]

So much hand-wringing over what is and isn't bullying in a video game, when "solo" and "private group" are just a click away...

But honestly: if you're even pondering whether or not a setback in a video game constitutes real life bullying (barring verbal abuse over comms, of course), open is probably not the mode for you. In fact, Elite itself might not be the game for you. Can you imagine walking up to a child, bruised and bloodied on a playground or in their home, picked on for being weak or different or new, and even thinking of you- a grown adult- placing a rebuy screen on equal footing to their situation? Can you even comprehend the utterly pathetic weaksauce that is "yeah, you were just beat up by your classmates/parents, but what about the fact that I lost a spaceship in a video game for thirty seconds?"

Infantile manchild rubbish.

Five by five

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

So much hand-wringing over what is and isn't bullying in a video game, when "solo" and "private group" are just a click away...

But honestly: if you're even pondering whether or not a setback in a video game constitutes real life bullying (barring verbal abuse over comms, of course), open is probably not the mode for you. In fact, Elite itself might not be the game for you. Can you imagine walking up to a child, bruised and bloodied on a playground or in their home, picked on for being weak or different or new, and even thinking of you- a grown adult- placing a rebuy screen on equal footing to their situation? Can you even comprehend the utterly pathetic weaksauce that is "yeah, you were just beat up by your classmates/parents, but what about the fact that I lost a spaceship in a video game for thirty seconds?"

Infantile manchild rubbish.

QFT

 

[Mouse]

What is funny is some think that FD's "stance" on the matter is absolute and final, yet think FD is wrong in other stances. As with PP, BGS, the Modes, etc... seems like for some FD's "stance" is only good if it benefits them.

I agree that it is NOT harassment to attack another player in OPEN... or a PVP PG.


Now when people go beyond gameplay (even though it is allowed) and purposely hound people, purposely use any means they can out of game to find them and kill them... even if allowed... how can anyone defend that?

FD does make comments on that... which make their "stance" interesting...

In PG's it clearly states "IN group play, the admins of the group are free to set and enforce their own rules".

Now at the end of 4. It claims FD doesn't want players to feel harassed... and then in 5 gives their "stance" on PVP. I air quote stance because of the little gem they slid in there..."in some cases". So that means there are cases where killing people for no reason at all is not allowed and could be seen as harassment. Yet they go on to mention, "Assuming the combat conforms to the rules of the game then it is fair play. "

Now that CMDR Vulcan has stated what they have... where are the printed "rules of the game?". I decided to look up the code of conduct.


Now this is interesting because it has been stated by some that certain actions done are not harassment...yet if we look at their code of conduct I find something interesting...

https://www.frontierstore.net/code-of-conduct

Right off the bat the wording ...

"The following rules apply to you, the user when playing the game Elite Dangerous.You must adhere to the following rules of conduct, and also follow a reasonable, common-sense and respectful code of conduct. Users are required to take into consideration community standards and refrain from abusive or deceptive conduct, Rights of other users should be respected.
No cheating or taking advantage of exploits in the game."

Most of this is ambiguous to my mind. Nice legal speak with no real offer of a hard yes can do this no you cannot. Only one that is sorta is Rights of other users should be respected.... yet many times clearly they are not...

But the one that rang out to me is...


"We do not tolerate cheating of any kind in the game, this includes using automated programs or services offered outside of the game to generate player advantage, altering game code or using cheat codes.
We also do not tolerate the use of any exploits or the use of any possible bugs in the game to generate player advantage.
Any player caught cheating or taking advantage of any exploits or bugs will be penalise and could face a game ban."

The use of services offered outside of the game to generate player advantage.... say as using someone's twitch to hunt them down?

So let's look at The TOS..

https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/

hmm.....

4.4 You may not use the Game or any Online Features in a manner that could damage, disable, impair, overburden or compromise our systems or security or interfere with the experience of other users of the Game or any Online Feature.

Well depending on the action of some, even though it is supposedly legal gameplay... could easily Overburden and interfere with the experience of others users of the game.

7.3.1 The Game and/or Online Features may allow communications between users by means including but not limited to text and voice. When using such features you must use common sense and good manners, your behaviour, conduct and communications must be considerate to other users and you must not be directly or indirectly offensive, threatening, harassing or bullying to others or violate any applicable laws including but not limited to anti-discrimination legislation based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Clearly states harassing and bullying are not allowed, the question has been at which point does certain actions go beyond PVP and into those realms. Some have given examples, but others want to claim that ANY PVP is just PVP, and matter what it is and that the choice of modes means that any actions taken in Open cannot be bullying or harassing. I emphatically believe that this is not true.

With the inclusion of "in some cases" the supposedly clear cut FD "stance" is anything but, because what are those cases, again to me the stance is again ambiguous because they do not make clear cut decision by adding that statement.

 

[Mouse]

So much hand-wringing over what is and isn't bullying in a video game, when "solo" and "private group" are just a click away...

But honestly: if you're even pondering whether or not a setback in a video game constitutes real life bullying (barring verbal abuse over comms, of course), open is probably not the mode for you. In fact, Elite itself might not be the game for you. Can you imagine walking up to a child, bruised and bloodied on a playground or in their home, picked on for being weak or different or new, and even thinking of you- a grown adult- placing a rebuy screen on equal footing to their situation? Can you even comprehend the utterly pathetic weaksauce that is "yeah, you were just beat up by your classmates/parents, but what about the fact that I lost a spaceship in a video game for thirty seconds?"

Infantile manchild rubbish.

Infantile manchild rubbish is those who can't deal with others not wanting to play the same game as they do. And I find it very interesting that those who want the "machoism" of PVP are the ones who suddenly care about what is harassing/bullying. And I ask you this.... when someone reaches adulthood, does teasing stop? Does bullying? Does being a certain age mean crap doesn't happen anymore? And At no point that I have seen, I could have missed it, has anyone saying that yes depending on the situation there could be harassment or even cyber bullying equals physical bullying that children OR adults go through. Yet again... those making the comparison are those wanting to weaken one argument by trying to make the connection to the other and thus making the argument seem "weak".

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Infantile manchild rubbish is those who can't deal with others not wanting to play the same game as they do. And I find it very interesting that those who want the "machoism" of PVP are the ones who suddenly care about what is harassing/bullying. And I ask you this.... when someone reaches adulthood, does teasing stop? Does bullying? Does being a certain age mean crap doesn't happen anymore? And At no point that I have seen, I could have missed it, has anyone saying that yes depending on the situation there could be harassment or even cyber bullying equals physical bullying that children OR adults go through. Yet again... those making the comparison are those wanting to weaken one argument by trying to make the connection to the other and thus making the argument seem "weak".

My thanks for so perfectly demonstrating everything I was talking about.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Oh of course, "infantile womanchild rubbish" is perfectly acceptable too.
Mustn't exclude...

 

[Mouse]

My thanks for so perfectly demonstrating everything I was talking about.

You are welcome, it is nice to know that you enjoy what you do so much that when others point out what you do we are "demonstrating" it.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Oh of course, "infantile womanchild rubbish" is perfectly acceptable too.
Mustn't exclude...

Tbh our half of the species deal with this sort of thing much better, but thank you for being inclusive

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

So much hand-wringing over what is and isn't bullying in a video game, when "solo" and "private group" are just a click away...

But honestly: if you're even pondering whether or not a setback in a video game constitutes real life bullying (barring verbal abuse over comms, of course), open is probably not the mode for you. In fact, Elite itself might not be the game for you. Can you imagine walking up to a child, bruised and bloodied on a playground or in their home, picked on for being weak or different or new, and even thinking of you- a grown adult- placing a rebuy screen on equal footing to their situation? Can you even comprehend the utterly pathetic weaksauce that is "yeah, you were just beat up by your classmates/parents, but what about the fact that I lost a spaceship in a video game for thirty seconds?"

Infantile manchild rubbish.

This is exactly the response most internet bullies use, claiming it's just a game, just words. Then insulting the victims for being upset and claiming they should 'man up' when what they are truly doing is insulting the poster to attempt to devalue their feelings.

Fortunatly the world is moving on and e-bullying is now becoming recognised to be a serious problem and no amounts of insults will change that. It's no longer ok to be sexist and soon it wont be ok to anomalously bully online.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

This is exactly the response most internet bullies use, claiming it's just a game, just words. Then insulting the victims for being upset and claiming they should 'man up' when what they are truly doing is insulting the poster to attempt to devalue their feelings.

Fortunatly the world is moving on and e-bullying is now becoming recognised to be a serious problem and no amounts of insults will change that. It's no longer ok to be sexist and soon it wont be ok to anomalously bully online.

Please post the video of how it goes where you tell a mental health professional that your rebuy screen is comparable to battered child's situation. Be sure to state your age, too.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Please post the video of how it goes where you tell a mental health professional that your rebuy screen is comparable to battered child's situation. Be sure to state your age, too.

There you go again trying to devalue the point by false equivalences; Most mental health professionals now recognise online bullying and trolling as a serious problem for mental health; you don't have to be 'battered' or physically assaulted to be bullied.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

There you go again trying to devalue the point by false equivalences; Most mental health professionals now recognise online bullying and trolling as a serious problem for mental health; you don't have to be 'battered' or physically assaulted to be bullied.

Most mental health professionals are going to roll their eyes at grown adults claiming that they were bullied because things didn't go their way in a video game, too.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Most mental health professionals are going to roll their eyes at grown adults claiming bullying because things don't go their way in a video game, too.

I'm claiming the guys doing it are bullies because of 'why' they are doing it and the targets they pick; not really about the 'victims' as in this game repeated contact with those you don't enjoy playing with can be moderated by modes and block-list. That still leaves the instigators who do it for no in-game reason or benefit as bullies, because of the action they took and the reason behind it not the effect on the victim.

Again none of this is aimed at combat players, just a specific very small sub-set of salt harvesters/greifers/station rammer types.Before anyone claims I can't mind read, how do I know their intent; fortunately in this social-media age most of them give there selves away by posting videos/streams of them greifing whilst laughing like children and shouting 'get-gud scrub' at their victims in the nastiest ways.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I'm claiming the guys doing it are bullies because of 'why' they are doing it and the targets they pick; not really about the 'victims' as in this game repeated contact with those you don't enjoy playing with can be moderated by modes and block-list. That still leaves the instigators who do it for no in-game reason or benefit as bullies, because of the action they took and the reason behind it not the effect on the victim.

As soon as the "victim" chooses an appropriate mode that suits how they want to play (or uses the Block feature if they wish), the "why" of the perceived attack becomes irrelevant.

It's about control - use the options there to empower yourself, or relinquish it to someone else and let them control how you play - the choice is entirely on us as individual players.

 

[Mouse]

Please post the video of how it goes where you tell a mental health professional that your rebuy screen is comparable to battered child's situation. Be sure to state your age, too.

Since you want to try to equate things...

https://cyberbullying.org/resources/adults


And again... NO ONE has said facing a rebuy screen was bullying... what HAS been said, and blatantly ignored by you and others, is behavior that LED to multiple rebuy screens, behaviour to circumvent PG PVE group rules to "hunt" and PVP members, and or behavior using out of game resources to "hunt" targets (against the TOS by the way).. could be construed as harassment. Your attempt to deflect this by bringing up other types of bullying done to children and such and claiming that those who see certain actions as harassment in ED are... what were the words? Oh yea "utterly pathetic weaksauce".

This is the same headstrong "machoistic" attitude which is inflicted on some military members by others, sadly which leads some to suicide... I've rebuffed it in the S.O.G. threads when leveled at me at least once. I've encountered and defended against it when a group invaded a PTSD group on Facebook that offered Veterans yard signs to warn neighbors of their condition and to ask them to be considerate when using fireworks. They started to send PM's to everyone in the member list accusing them of pretty much being, as you said, "utterly pathetic weaksauce" and making those "real" (and I use the term loosely) men and women who served look weak in the public eye. I bet dollars to pesos that every one of those cyberbullies either never actually served or if they did they never saw anything other than a desk...

This right now is the kind of mentality you are projecting. That anyone would dare claim that someone could "harass" in a game is "utterly pathetic weaksauce"... just look at the poor children who suffer REAL bullying and shut up and play the game.

Well you know what... what happens to children all to often is horrible... yet that is not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is behavior that you want to condone and to do so you will try to bring other things into the mix to distract from it.... so if anything should be disgusting... I think it would be using reference of the bullying of children as a shield against other people's argument against your point of view.

Kinda utterly pathetic weaksauce isn't it?

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

<self-snip>

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Kinda utterly pathetic weaksauce isn't it?

At the end of the day, 99% of "bullying" in Elite is solved by choosing the mode best suited for one's sensibilities.

And the other 1%?

Realizing that yes- it is only a game, that you're an adult with an adult's perspective and priorities, and that no one has the power to ruin your day over such unless you allow them to.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

This is exactly the response most internet bullies use, claiming it's just a game, just words. Then insulting the victims for being upset and claiming they should 'man up' when what they are truly doing is insulting the poster to attempt to devalue their feelings.

Fortunatly the world is moving on and e-bullying is now becoming recognised to be a serious problem and no amounts of insults will change that. It's no longer ok to be sexist and soon it wont be ok to anomalously bully online.

I find it funny that despite your hand wringing, we're not even playing a game and you're doing that to people.
A game IS an excuse for all sorts of behavior.
You realize people do things like boxing and jiu-jitsu for fun, right?
That would be assault/battery/attempted murder on the street.
Context matters.

Your pleas ring hollow.

 

[Brrokk]

Look, it's just like this. You can go on a murder spree in ED. You can hunt and kill all day, for no reason other than that it gives you some kind of pleasure. FD allow this in their published terms. No-one can stop you.

At the same time, anyone else can form the opinion that you're an obnoxious person and apply the label "bully" if that's what the behaviour looks like to them.

They can't stop what you're doing; you can't stop them forming their opinion of it.

If you want to do all that destructive stuff and at the same time have people's good opinion, then there's a problem. But the problem is yours, not anyone else's.