Modes Is attacking clean players (not npcs) in Open harassment?

[Tiili]

I, for example, play a very psychopathic character in this game. He stalks people through multiple systems and robs them with guns blazing and I don't feel bad about it, nor am I supposed to.

In another mmorpg, I play a character who aids others by healing and mentors new adventurers, often handing out his assets so they can get more inventory slots or better equipment. He is an altruist, always putting others before him and helping them in any way he can.

I'm neither in real life. Thus, I could very strongly suggest that making psychological evaluations based on a players game world activities is completely meaningless.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

I, for example, play a very psychopathic character in this game. He stalks people through multiple systems and robs them with guns blazing and I don't feel bad about it, nor am I supposed to.

In another mmorpg, I play a character who aids others by healing and mentors new adventurers, often handing out his assets so they can get more inventory slots or better equipment. He is an altruist, always putting others before him and helping them in any way he can.

I'm neither in real life. Thus, I could very strongly suggest that making psychological evaluations based on a players game world activities is completely meaningless.

Which is fine and legitimate RP; if however you find yourself with 3 mates in cutters intercepting dudes in everate and posting u-tub video's where you laugh at them, call them scrubs and tell them to 'get-gud' that's bullying/trolling.

Post Scriptum; to demonstrate I have nothing against the ole pvp I will share a small tale. I was once a member of a 0.0 in corp' EvE called 'The Unthikables'; our tag was INK. We punched well above our weight for a while and owned a southern sector of space. I once took part in the wholesale slaughter of 250 Eve-university under-grads who had made the mistake of a 0.0 expedition just as our war-fleet was on patrol looking for a different foe. The bloodshed was immense as we chased them from their entry point all over the south till none were left. This was not us bullying them, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and both sides understood this in a game where territory could be owned.

If however I'd been the sort to join the suicide ganking of miners in safe space for lols and u-tub views; i'd be a bully.

 

[Riverside]

Look, it's just like this. You can go on a murder spree in ED. You can hunt and kill all day, for no reason other than that it gives you some kind of pleasure. FD allow this in their published terms. No-one can stop you.

At the same time, anyone else can form the opinion that you're an obnoxious person and apply the label "bully" if that's what the behaviour looks like to them.

They can't stop what you're doing; you can't stop them forming their opinion of it.

If you want to do all that destructive stuff and at the same time have people's good opinion, then there's a problem. But the problem is yours, not anyone else's.

Makes sense to me. Anyone can be bullied, how they react to it isn't within the control of the 'harassing' player but if your playstyle requires other players to be willing to play with you it sure does help if you're likeable

 

[Jockey79]

You realize people do things like boxing and jiu-jitsu for fun, right?
That would be assault/battery/attempted murder on the street.
Context matters.

And these activities come with forms to sign, legal waivers and explanations of the dangers involved.
(My youngest does Kickboxing, so I'm quite familiar with the paperwork)

Tell me, where is the warnings when entering Open mode?
Where is the box saying "You cannot use this activity until you understand etc, etc, etc..."

Have you been through the tutorials? As I didn't see any sign of that information there.

From the moment you install the game, to the moment you get blown up by player, at no point does the game tell you that can happen.
You have to dig around the forums or website for that information.

Ever seen a boxing or jiu-jitsu group just throw people into the deep then, then tell them it's their fault when they get hurt for not going to the social sites and doing extra reading?
We all know it wouldn't work, the company has a duty to tell people up front about what to expect.
Yet somehow you don't want to hold Frontier to the same standard.
Because there should be a warning & tick box before people are allowed into Open.
Yet you blame the victims who were not warned about your shenanigans for the outcome.

says a lot really.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

At the same time, anyone else can form the opinion that you're an obnoxious person and apply the label "bully" if that's what the behaviour looks like to them.

Words don't mean what you want them to mean.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

And these activities come with forms to sign, legal waivers and explanations of the dangers involved.
(My youngest does Kickboxing, so I'm quite familiar with the paperwork)

Tell me, where is the warnings when entering Open mode?
Where is the box saying "You cannot use this activity until you understand etc, etc, etc..."

Have you been through the tutorials? As I didn't see any sign of that information there.

From the moment you install the game, to the moment you get blown up by player, at no point does the game tell you that can happen.
You have to dig around the forums or website for that information.

Ever seen a boxing or jiu-jitsu group just throw people into the deep then, then tell them it's their fault when they get hurt for not going to the social sites and doing extra reading?
We all know it wouldn't work, the company has a duty to tell people up front about what to expect.
Yet somehow you don't want to hold Frontier to the same standard.
Because there should be a warning & tick box before people are allowed into Open.
Yet you blame the victims who were not warned about your shenanigans for the outcome.

says a lot really.

For the record, I'm not agaisnt a warning when entering open, however, I think that just by doing rutinary reading before purchasing you'll realise that there's no intrinsic limitation to kill somebody else, when I began playing I wasn't thinking about this explicitly but when I got torn apart I was aware that was allowed in-game so I didn't report it or anything.

 

[Chaparral]

I, for example, play a very psychopathic character in this game. He stalks people through multiple systems and robs them with guns blazing and I don't feel bad about it, nor am I supposed to.

In another mmorpg, I play a character who aids others by healing and mentors new adventurers, often handing out his assets so they can get more inventory slots or better equipment. He is an altruist, always putting others before him and helping them in any way he can.

I'm neither in real life. Thus, I could very strongly suggest that making psychological evaluations based on a players game world activities is completely meaningless.

How do the PVP and PVE systems compare in these games? Is it possible to play the psychopath effectively in the other game without significant consequences?

 

[Tiili]

Yes, you can gank anyone else except current party members so playing a roaming slayer is quite possible, as it is also possible to play a roaming repair vessel in elite, which I've also done until things happened to my character which led to him turning to a life of crime

 

[00nutzy]

Yes the game will allow you to play a chaotic evil character.

Its been an option since the days of pen and paper games. However in those cases you have to deal with the DMFF if you get too far out of line, also you had the social engineering of your friends and everyone knew what was going on. Not so much the case in this game, the RP is seriously lacking considering the tools (or lack there of) we have in the game.

Just as in PnP games you can play that chaotic evil character, its in the rules, however, there is nothing to stop others from making opinions on what type of character/person you are. It has always been the case even before the internet, of course back then people had more context of who you are etc, all of that is lacking here.

Here in this game (like it or not) you can only be judged by your actions, except for the subset who go to twitch or youtube and hurl insults at their victims etc.

Even in the PnP games you act out poorly enough you would not get invited to the games anymore, here, the victims have the choice of not playing with you, when that happens there is no one to blame but yourselves.

Unless you have no concept of social interaction this must be apparent, and trolling or besmirching those who choose not to play with you (or even like the way you play) only reflects badly upon you.

The lack of social tools in the game makes your motives irrelevant, only your actions can be interpreted and that is unfortunate

 

[Chaparral]

Yes, you can gank anyone else except current party members so playing a roaming slayer is quite possible, as it is also possible to play a roaming repair vessel in elite, which I've also done until things happened to my character which led to him turning to a life of crime

What is this other game?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

And these activities come with forms to sign, legal waivers and explanations of the dangers involved.
(My youngest does Kickboxing, so I'm quite familiar with the paperwork)

Tell me, where is the warnings when entering Open mode?
Where is the box saying "You cannot use this activity until you understand etc, etc, etc..."

Have you been through the tutorials? As I didn't see any sign of that information there.

From the moment you install the game, to the moment you get blown up by player, at no point does the game tell you that can happen.
You have to dig around the forums or website for that information.

Ever seen a boxing or jiu-jitsu group just throw people into the deep then, then tell them it's their fault when they get hurt for not going to the social sites and doing extra reading?
We all know it wouldn't work, the company has a duty to tell people up front about what to expect.
Yet somehow you don't want to hold Frontier to the same standard.
Because there should be a warning & tick box before people are allowed into Open.
Yet you blame the victims who were not warned about your shenanigans for the outcome.

says a lot really.

What happens with kids is hardly a proper metric.
For adults, lots of fools come in off of the street, and get tooled up in boxing or jiu-jitsu gyms.
Lots of people just get "thrown to the wolves".
That's exactly why I chose those particular disciplines as examples.
"Protect yourself at all times." is the adage I'm looking at.

I live in the surfing capitol of the world.
Some fool like you can come here, buy a board at Costco and paddle out in gigantic surf with no experience.
Sure, you will almost certainly die, but no one will stop you at most beaches.
"You are expected to do your homework and know your own limitations."

Shocking right?

FDev have stated unequivocally what their position is.
If they have done a thorough job by "your" reasoning, is not the question.
Your logical fallacies are tedious.

Funny, I knew exactly what to expect when I bought Elite.

 

[hypervoodoo77]

For the record, I'm not agaisnt a warning when entering open, however, I think that just by doing rutinary reading before purchasing you'll realise that there's no intrinsic limitation to kill somebody else, when I began playing I wasn't thinking about this explicitly but when I got torn apart I was aware that was allowed in-game so I didn't report it or anything.

I don't get reporting anyway.
Firstly to be upright in the years of playing I have logged once or twice when I really wasn't in the mood.
I don't make it a habit and mostly play Möbius.
But that said I have also experienced people logging on me in an ingagement but it doesn't really bother me I see it as a win and move on

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

What happens with kids is hardly a proper metric.
For adults, lots of fools come in off of the street, and get tooled up in boxing or jiu-jitsu gyms.
Lots of people just get "thrown to the wolves".
That's exactly why I chose those particular disciplines as examples.
"Protect yourself at all times." is the adage I'm looking at.

I live in the surfing capitol of the world.
Some fool like you can come here, buy a board at Costco and paddle out in gigantic surf with no experience.
Sure, you will almost certainly die, but no one will stop you at most beaches.
"You are expected to do your homework and know your own limitations."

Shocking right?

FDev have stated unequivocally what their position is.
If they have done a thorough job by "your" reasoning, is not the question.
Your logical fallacies are tedious.

Funny, I knew exactly what to expect when I bought Elite.

Funny how many people who apparently live in paradise, with important jobs, and loads of money,beautiful wives and kids are regular posters on a internet game that would take you away from all that...truly convincing.

Edit; bit harsh apologies; you may or may not live in a beautiful world but using that as ammunition in a internet debate is a no-no as opens up all the ridicule. Hope you do tho' coz surfin's fun.

 

[00nutzy]

What happens with kids is hardly a proper metric.
For adults, lots of fools come in off of the street, and get tooled up in boxing or jiu-jitsu gyms.
Lots of people just get "thrown to the wolves".
That's exactly why I chose those particular disciplines as examples.
"Protect yourself at all times." is the adage I'm looking at.

I live in the surfing capitol of the world.
Some fool like you can come here, buy a board at Costco and paddle out in gigantic surf with no experience.
Sure, you will almost certainly die, but no one will stop you at most beaches.
"You are expected to do your homework and know your own limitations."

Shocking right?

FDev have stated unequivocally what their position is.
If they have done a thorough job by "your" reasoning, is not the question.
Your logical fallacies are tedious.

Funny, I knew exactly what to expect when I bought Elite.

And I live in a whitewater and Alpine Skiing meca, most of us are more than willing to help the ill informed about how dangerous the activities are. Most of the time we are listened to especially when we tell them the number of fatalities on the river or slope each year. Even getting the kids and their parents to wear the proper safety equipment. And most of the reputable sports shops will take the time to make sure you know what your are getting into, many at the Mountan Haus will even give free lessons on their off days, just because they really enjoy the activities

And even with all of this the lawsuits still come every year, so even with all the documentation and best wishes people still get mad and upset, as is their right so to expect the players in a video game to be more mature than the rest of the population does not bode well for your reasoning skills.

People are people, sometimes they will get upset from time to time, they are as entitled to their opinion as you are. If you are afraid people are seeing you as a bully (right or wrong) perhaps its the way your actions portray that character. Instead of getting upset why not step out of character and strike up a conversation so they can actually know who is behind the character? Of course some of the interaction offered on these forums would do more harm than good, just as the youtube videos go a long way to showing what kind of a prat the person may be.


... Of course most of us who live in the area cant afford the luxuries so we just go fishing, My grandfather could never understand why people turned a perfectly good way to get around in the winter to being drug up a hill just to slide down again. Utter insanity in his mind

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

And I live in a whitewater and Alpine Skiing meca, most of us are more than willing to help the ill informed about how dangerous the activities are. Most of the time we are listened to especially when we tell them the number of fatalities on the river or slope each year. Even getting the kids and their parents to wear the proper safety equipment. And most of the reputable sports shops will take the time to make sure you know what your are getting into, many at the Mountan Haus will even give free lessons on their off days, just because they really enjoy the activities

And even with all of this the lawsuits still come every year, so even with all the documentation and best wishes people still get mad and upset, as is their right so to expect the players in a video game to be more mature than the rest of the population does not bode well for your reasoning skills.

People are people, sometimes they will get upset from time to time, they are as entitled to their opinion as you are. If you are afraid people are seeing you as a bully (right or wrong) perhaps its the way your actions portray that character. Instead of getting upset why not step out of character and strike up a conversation so they can actually know who is behind the character? Of course some of the interaction offered on these forums would do more harm than good, just as the youtube videos go a long way to showing what kind of a prat the person may be.


... Of course most of us who live in the area cant afford the luxuries so we just go fishing, My grandfather could never understand why people turned a perfectly good way to get around in the winter to being drug up a hill just to slide down again. Utter insanity in his mind

LOL, you misunderstand me it seems.
I don't expect people to be reasonable, quite the contrary!
I am simply pointing out the unreasonableness.

And yes, people ave a right to be wrong and silly, and to disregard the well-meaning advice from more experienced folks.

This is a recurring theme:

The problem with “I’m entitled to my opinion” is that, all too often, it’s used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned. It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like” – and by extension, continuing to argue is somehow disrespectful. And this attitude feeds, I suggest, into the false equivalence between experts and non-experts that is an increasingly pernicious feature of our public discourse.

If “Everyone’s entitled to their opinion” just means no-one has the right to stop people thinking and saying whatever they want, then the statement is true, but fairly trivial. No one can stop you saying that vaccines cause autism, no matter how many times that claim has been disproven.

But if ‘entitled to an opinion’ means ‘entitled to have your views treated as serious candidates for the truth’ then it’s pretty clearly false. And this too is a distinction that tends to get blurred.

https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978


Your grandfather sounds like a character.

 

[00nutzy]

LOL, you misunderstand me it seems.
I don't expect people to be reasonable, quite the contrary!
I am simply pointing out the unreasonableness.

And yes, people ave a right to be wrong and silly, and to disregard the well-meaning advice from more experienced folks.

This is a recurring theme:




https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978


Your grandfather sounds like a character.

He was from Norway, had never seen alpine skiing he always provided for the family only bought meat from the store for a pot roast once a month. From Thanksgiving to New years we always had block parties around the town Ole always brought the game, always had a warm place to stay.

He also never said an unkind word to someone although he may have called you a prat it was in the nicest way you never felt bad even when you were getting reprimanded.
"No reason not be be gracious and nice, some folks just dont know better"
and its no use being a jerk we all die in the end and none of us can take it with him so make others happy, they are much more likely to hang around and help you when you need it. And trust me red we all need it from time to time.

He was a character and the nicest person I have ever met, he is missed

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

He was from Norway, had never seen alpine skiing he always provided for the family only bought meat from the store for a pot roast once a month. From Thanksgiving to New years we always had block parties around the town Ole always brought the game, always had a warm place to stay.

He also never said an unkind word to someone although he may have called you a prat it was in the nicest way you never felt bad even when you were getting reprimanded.
"No reason not be be gracious and nice, some folks just dont know better"
and its no use being a jerk we all die in the end and none of us can take it with him so make others happy, they are much more likely to hang around and help you when you need it. And trust me red we all need it from time to time.

He was a character and the nicest person I have ever met, he is missed

While all that may be true, Aristotle described 3 ways to persuade, if that was one's objective.

I further suggest Brandolini's Law comes into play.

Tone policing is abhorrent, and we ought to prefer/promote something more akin to Crocker's Rules, if we're acting like adults and all...

This is an international, text based communication forum.
Supposing peoples' tone and intentions is what we should be objecting to.

(I'm sorry for your loss but clearly he lives on in the hearts of many.

Aloha Ole.)

 

[00nutzy]

While all that may be true, Aristotle described 3 ways to persuade, if that was one's objective.

I further suggest Brandolini's Law comes into play.

Tone policing is abhorrent, and we ought to prefer/promote something more akin to Crocker's Rules, if we're acting like adults and all...

This is an international, text based communication forum.
Supposing peoples' tone and intentions is what we should be objecting to.

(I'm sorry for your loss but clearly he lives on in the hearts of many.

Aloha Ole.)

The biggest issue with crockers rules they do not require the other party to subscribe to the ideology They are a non social device. And honestly on this forum many of the most vocal people may want you to accept the Crockers rulesso they can puposly insult and demean others. (nor saying that is you) however it is a one sided set of rules it even states the idea of implied resiprosity is a falicy that is best steared clear of.

In a social setting the comlwate lack of tonal policing is just a way to encourage people to be horrible to each other. There is nothing adult about that.

And Aristotal was a for the bottle so there is that.

Well one more monty pyrhon jokw ruined bu the filter

While supposing others intentions is a fools errand you are left only with actions and each action is not taken in a vacume if yiur actions speak to yiur character the policing of the actions is up to you and you have no right to expect others will not make their own judgement upon your chzracter.

So behave as you wish you have the right to do so dont be upset about how others perceive you, or if you do care the solution is also in your own hands.

Nobody is particularly right or wrong. Its all just vanity

 

[Mouse]

I live in the surfing capitol of the world.
Some fool like you can come here, buy a board at Costco and paddle out in gigantic surf with no experience.
Sure, you will almost certainly die, but no one will stop you at most beaches.
"You are expected to do your homework and know your own limitations."

Shocking right?

Most people who are avid hobbyists, sportsmen, and the like can spot a newbie in a heartbeat and at least warn them. That the people in your supposed "capital of surfing", there are quite a few places claiming that title by the way, could care less and would just watch a newbie go out like that... Actually that says LOADS about the people there actually.

FDev have stated unequivocally what their position is.
If they have done a thorough job by "your" reasoning, is not the question.
Your logical fallacies are tedious.

Funny, I knew exactly what to expect when I bought Elite.

Actually... they didn't. You must have missed my reply to you, or blatantly ignored it. Their whole stance is ambiguous as they won't give cut and dry.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

The biggest issue with crockers rules they do not require the other party to subscribe to the ideology They are a non social device. And honestly on this forum many of the most vocal people may want you to accept the Crockers rulesso they can puposly insult and demean others. (nor saying that is you) however it is a one sided set of rules it even states the idea of implied resiprosity is a falicy that is best steared clear of.

No you have it backwards.
Crocker's rules only applies to yourself.
It's about accepting personal responsibility.
It doesn't license you to insult someone else.

In a social setting the comlwate lack of tonal policing is just a way to encourage people to be horrible to each other. There is nothing adult about that.

No, tone /= behavior.
Also, your assumption of my tone is irrelevant to objective facts, and may be way off base to begin with.

And Aristotal was a for the bottle so there is that.

Well one more monty pyrhon jokw ruined bu the filter

Maybe it was an ad hominem filter.

While supposing others intentions is a fools errand you are left only with actions and each action is not taken in a vacume if yiur actions speak to yiur character the policing of the actions is up to you and you have no right to expect others will not make their own judgement upon your chzracter.

So behave as you wish you have the right to do so dont be upset about how others perceive you, or if you do care the solution is also in your own hands.

Nobody is particularly right or wrong. Its all just vanity

No, the devs get to decide what is right and wrong.
Don't make up stuff.
That is the vanity, acting like all positions are equal.
The article I just posted is about exactly that.