"Civil Liberty" seems like an Orwellian word choice for high security

Ben Franklin said:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Of course he meant almost the opposite when he wrote that, but the point still carries the weight of the history since then. While some security is needed to deal with chaotic elements, the primary danger to civil liberty has always been government itself, those seeking to corrupt it, and those seeking to control others through government.

For certain government types in Elite who rule by restricting civil liberties virtually out of existence (Dictatorships, Patronages, Corporations, Theocracies, and perhaps especially Prison Colonies), having the "Liberty" moniker for the highest security state in the BGS is almost comically ironic. Maybe there should be different names for the highest security states based on government type? Or maybe they could just more accurately call it "Civil Order".
 
For certain government types in Elite who rule by restricting civil liberties virtually out of existence (Dictatorships, Patronages, Corporations, Theocracies, and perhaps especially Prison Colonies), having the "Liberty" moniker for the highest security state in the BGS is almost comically ironic. Maybe there should be different names for the highest security states based on government type? Or maybe they could just more accurately call it "Civil Order".

That is a damn good point. Maybe if Democracies and a few of the others had "Civil Liberty" while those ones had "Civil Order" as the same state?

"Boom" is arguably quite a capitalist-sounding state also. Perhaps Communist and Theocratic factions should have "Abundance" or something.
 
+rep

Anyway, on one hand civil order doesn't seem fitting for an Anarchy either.
On the other hand Anarchy doesn't mean a lack of order but a lack of leadership or hierarchy. On the other hand most people are too stubborn to realise it, so why should anyone care.

Yes, I do realise that I got three hands.
 
Strange mixture of references, Orwell in title, then you quote Ben Franklin. Almost like this whole area is a confusion (to FD too!). Next we get to talk about how Anarchies aren't necessarily low security, and then people get very upset ;)

tl;dr : it's a game. modelling real socio-political systems is complicated. see you in 100 pages

o7

Edit: Dammit, Babelfisch already made my Anarchies point ;)
 
Of course he meant almost the opposite when he wrote that, but the point still carries the weight of the history since then. While some security is needed to deal with chaotic elements, the primary danger to civil liberty has always been government itself, those seeking to corrupt it, and those seeking to control others through government.

For certain government types in Elite who rule by restricting civil liberties virtually out of existence (Dictatorships, Patronages, Corporations, Theocracies, and perhaps especially Prison Colonies), having the "Liberty" moniker for the highest security state in the BGS is almost comically ironic. Maybe there should be different names for the highest security states based on government type? Or maybe they could just more accurately call it "Civil Order".

No, he meant pretty much exactly what he said, and this statement has been a cornerstone argument against things like National Fingerprint Registries, DNA Registries, and nearly all forms of governmental intrusion into the private lives of citizens.

Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus said:
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Now this fellow... he had the right idea.
 
Yeah, I'm guessing they were struggling to come up with a suitable word to describe a happy, free, society and a state of "civil liberty" was all they could think of.

Maybe they could have gone with something like "Emancipated" or simply "Liberated" instead?
 
No, he meant pretty much exactly what he said, and this statement has been a cornerstone argument against things like National Fingerprint Registries, DNA Registries, and nearly all forms of governmental intrusion into the private lives of citizens.

Don't want to get side tracked but this is the actual context of what Franklin said:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said
The words appear originally in a 1755 letter that Franklin is presumed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the Assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him. So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

So Franklin was actually arguing for the right of governments to tax individuals to fund the government's business of protecting common interests. Quite the opposite of the "rights of the individual" argument that it is often used to promote.

Which kind of goes against my original point :D But oh well, it's still a good quote when taken out of context to defend the rights of the individual against the state.
 
Yeah, I'm guessing they were struggling to come up with a suitable word to describe a happy, free, society and a state of "civil liberty" was all they could think of.

Maybe they could have gone with something like "Emancipated" or simply "Liberated" instead?

Emancipated has a tone of freeing from bondage, and liberated is typically something invaders do by obliterating an existing government and replacing it with "temporary" military rule, or something pirates do with cargo :D.

"Civil Order" seems to capture the "pax romana" or "no broken windows" policy of policing that would allow for people to feel like they can move about without worrying about bandits, and it fits all govt types, I would argue even Anarchy because "civil" can also just mean being nice :)
 
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Maybe when you reach a state of civil liberty you dont get interdicted or scanned by police as the system is deemed to be safe and law abiding, so no need to undertake such draconian activities.

This conversely would make it an excellent place to smuggle in goods and criminal passengers.
 
Don't want to get side tracked but this is the actual context of what Franklin said:


So Franklin was actually arguing for the right of governments to tax individuals to fund the government's business of protecting common interests. Quite the opposite of the "rights of the individual" argument that it is often used to promote.

Which kind of goes against my original point :D But oh well, it's still a good quote when taken out of context to defend the rights of the individual against the state.

I do want to get side-tracked, at least a little, but since it is relevant.. http://oll.libertyfund.org/quotes/484

The end of this:

Franklin’s remarks about the trade offs between “essential liberty” and “a little temporary safety” seem to have been directed at those in the colonies who could see that further compromise was no longer possible by the Crown and that it was up to the colonies to cave in in order to maintain the peace. Franklin was urging them that to do this would be to give up the entire game and thereby scuttle any chance for real liberty and independence in the colonies.

doesn't read quite the same. Context really is everything, and there is no denying people do use context to support their positions, regardless of the actual intent.

The relevance: This is where it gets tricky - given that we can have different sorts of powers in control of a system, be they Corporate, Theocratic, Democratic, Anarchistic, or Dictatorial, the matter of the general "Happiness" of the citizens there becomes subjective to who is actually in power.

Let's consider: England is a Constitutional Monarchy. Citizens there enjoy a broad range of freedoms. On Monday, the Houses of Lords and Commons are found empty. Those who previously occupied these positions are nowhere to be found, Queen Elizabeth is nowhere to be found, and George has declared himself to be King of England, and insists on reestablishing "the Old Monarchy". There is a period of "Civil Unrest", but under New King George, there is a complete media blackout, and the rest of the world knows nothing of this for quite some time. When news does come out, the rest of the world is told that George has taken the throne, instituted some changes in the government, the people are delighted to have him, and England becomes a new, and brutal Dictatorship. But we only know what we're told by the media, as the boarders are closed, audiences from foreign dignitaries are denied, and so forth.

We believe the people are happy in their new totalitarian state, when, in fact, they are quite miserable. However, since being or appearing miserable is a Capital Offence, no one dares let on they are anything other than totally thrilled - much in the way North Korea is run.

And yes, this is all a very hypothetical situation of extremes, purely to make a point - that point being that this is not entirely unlike what happens from system to system in Elite already, and I don't really yet see that really changing much at all. Influence and alter and depose the long-established government of a system, while keeping a happy citizenry happy, or after only a short period of Civil Unrest, and then right back to everything's status quo.

I feel this is yet another avenue of the game that is going to require a great deal of further work and development to make even somewhat believable.

And it may well be one that does lie beyond the scope of the game engine to really do justice. I can think of a number of ways this could be incorporated into game play without a lot of deep and fundamental overhauling. One such manner would be in spawning a new faction, The People's Party of Putting Things Back the Way They Wer, though with an obviously more suited and generated name, that operates in a given system, supports the deposed faction, and offers up missions to aid their cause and restore the former ruling faction, not though mission boards, but through Scenarios and Popup missions (wrinkles, alternative options to missions given by the new ruling faction).
 
People on these threads always tell me if I want mission X seek out a system economy of type Y and look for state Z.

Since I may be the only idiot that plays this game primarily through the missions, I'd really rather just get an assassination/smuggler/bounty hunter/mercenary mission broker that says go to A and do B.

I don't really give a rat's behind about the "politics" in this game, as far as I know its all a bunch of rogue AI's running around pasting up a human jpeg pretending to be a human. I really can't tell from the type of generic tasks they offer if they are taters or snowflakes. Seems like the political type nonsense is about as relevant as that jpeg.
 
I don't really give a rat's behind about the "politics" in this game

Then you may be in the wrong game, because the politics and BGS are central. Everything else flows from the it.

If anything the effects of the BGS have been somewhat underplayed to date. For example, being allied with several factions in the same system despite the fact you take assassination and massacre missions from all of them...
 
I kind of took "Civil Liberty" to mean "Bread and Circusses". Most people confuse the two IRL anyway. The average human throughout history has been little more than a slave if only to his own vice or ignorance, so why should a thousand years hence make any difference?
 
People on these threads always tell me if I want mission X seek out a system economy of type Y and look for state Z.

Since I may be the only idiot that plays this game primarily through the missions, I'd really rather just get an assassination/smuggler/bounty hunter/mercenary mission broker that says go to A and do B.

I don't really give a rat's behind about the "politics" in this game, as far as I know its all a bunch of rogue AI's running around pasting up a human jpeg pretending to be a human. I really can't tell from the type of generic tasks they offer if they are taters or snowflakes. Seems like the political type nonsense is about as relevant as that jpeg.

Then you may be in the wrong game, because the politics and BGS are central. Everything else flows from the it.

If anything the effects of the BGS have been somewhat underplayed to date. For example, being allied with several factions in the same system despite the fact you take assassination and massacre missions from all of them...

Except I'm with that guy above. I do what I feel like doing, wherever I happen to be. Consequences be damned.

I pledge allegiance to the credit
of the Bank of Zaonce.
And to the stuff with it I can buy.
One credit, indivisible, or they'd offer .25 cr missions.

But really, Politics in space is like spit in the ocean. Don't like the politics, leave. There are only 399,999,999,999 other systems out there.
 
I kind of took "Civil Liberty" to mean "Bread and Circusses". Most people confuse the two IRL anyway. The average human throughout history has been little more than a slave if only to his own vice or ignorance, so why should a thousand years hence make any difference?

Yes, was it not described as the citizens of the faction feeling free and safe.

So I don't think it is out of place for the Authoritarian factions, as they have created a state/sense of freedom and safety in the populace even if they are still under a high level of control and observation.

Going back to the Lave Revolution book, it would be such that the population believed the propoganda and didn't feel the need to question the Government and don't feel their way of life was at threat.

I look at that bar and it seems to suggest the state of how the population feels about their faction

Civil Liberties being they feel safe secure and happy with the status quo
Neutral is contents but conscious enough to be critical.
Civil unrest for when they are un happy and expressing it
And lockdown for when the faction puts an end to that expression.

Popular perception of their position, not actual position.
 
Except I'm with that guy above. I do what I feel like doing, wherever I happen to be. Consequences be damned.

I pledge allegiance to the credit
of the Bank of Zaonce.
And to the stuff with it I can buy.
One credit, indivisible, or they'd offer .25 cr missions.

But really, Politics in space is like spit in the ocean. Don't like the politics, leave. There are only 399,999,999,999 other systems out there.

And thats fine. Your choice.

Mostly you are able to do that because there are only positive consequences to your actions in missions or BH or CZs etc. You don't end up on the negative side of any npc faction - and i think thats a weakness in the BGS. It practically encourages people to ignore it, when I think there is far more game play to be had within the BGS. My opinion. YMMV.
 
People on these threads always tell me if I want mission X seek out a system economy of type Y and look for state Z.

Since I may be the only idiot that plays this game primarily through the missions, I'd really rather just get an assassination/smuggler/bounty hunter/mercenary mission broker that says go to A and do B.

I don't really give a rat's behind about the "politics" in this game, as far as I know its all a bunch of rogue AI's running around pasting up a human jpeg pretending to be a human. I really can't tell from the type of generic tasks they offer if they are taters or snowflakes. Seems like the political type nonsense is about as relevant as that jpeg.

In every thread you say you don't give a rats about the game politics and belittle those that do and say
I just want to find the missions I enjoy

And still when people say, well look at the faction types and states to find the missions you are looking for you repeat you don't give a rats about politics

Like staying you refuse to look for a war to find CZ and should just be able to find them everywhere all the time without context or meaning

As it doesn't matter if you don't care about the consequences of your actions on the BGS but you have to accept the BGS will drive what missions appear where
 
Yes, was it not described as the citizens of the faction feeling free and safe.

So I don't think it is out of place for the Authoritarian factions, as they have created a state/sense of freedom and safety in the populace even if they are still under a high level of control and observation.

Going back to the Lave Revolution book, it would be such that the population believed the propoganda and didn't feel the need to question the Government and don't feel their way of life was at threat.

I look at that bar and it seems to suggest the state of how the population feels about their faction

Civil Liberties being they feel safe secure and happy with the status quo
Neutral is contents but conscious enough to be critical.
Civil unrest for when they are un happy and expressing it
And lockdown for when the faction puts an end to that expression.

Popular perception of their position, not actual position.

That's the take I got from it.
 
Yeah this really stood out to me as well. A Fascist government which has stamped out crime shouldn't be described as "Civil Liberty." And "happiness" is already tracked as a separate axis, so I don't think it makes sense to explain away "civil liberty" as somehow referencing civil happiness and sense of freedom, especially when this is a function of the SECURITY level.

Spitballing some alternate words:
• Orderly
• Civil Confidence
• Civil Obedience (contrasts nicely with civil unrest)
• Secure

Anyway I think the terminology needs a rethink.
 
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