The Star Citizen Thread v9
- Thread starter Yaffle
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Jacques d'Orleans
Banned
That's the definition of profit for every profit-oriented business, they aren't tax exempt by the US or the UK as a Non-Profit-Org or a Church, which are the only legal exemptions to that definition.
How much he pays himself and what they're claiming is of no importance. They're a profit oriented business and that's the reason why you pay sales tax/VAT when you buy your virtual space ship/game package.
They can call that "pledge" as long as they want, when a customer exchanges money against a (virtual) good, it's a sale by definition. The pledging stopped being a thing the moment they left Kickstarter, from that point on they were selling virtual goods.
[video=youtube;xAabN1P_Lqs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAabN1P_Lqs[/video]
Its hilarious how he starts out with the well-known assurance of him being still a fan, not a hater, hes only having slight worries, SC is still this awesome and amazing game yada yada yada basically how so many posts on the RSI forum started out when they wanted to bring up criticism or objections. I salute twerk for trying to drop the rose tinted glasses and point onto risks and dangers but I wonder how "well" the loyal SC-base is going to take these apparent "traitor-words". Too many people today share his views tho to repeat a DS-cascade but a select few will still call him names and outright deny any of his worries. So far the comment section looks like I would expect it to look like, no hardcore white knights spotted yet but its still under 1K views so early days 
edit: because his very first call addresses this age-old claim that "Star Citizen is pushing the whole industry forward"....that got me thinking.....
What exactly has Star Citizen achieved so far that is benefitting the rest of the video game industry in any way? CiG is talking about so many features they are working on and which they want to implement at one time....other games have them already. Is there any specific SC-only feature or mechanic or technology that was copied by other games or is being outsourced to help other projects? Because I cant think of any. The only thing that comes to mind is the "never been attempted before" and like it was so many times.....words are cheap...its high time to step up or shut up Chris.
0Why do some people cling to the dream that Star Citizen will advance the genre and all video games through advanced technologies and perfectionism when none of it is currently recognizable.....when other games catch up and even pass Star Citizen in pretty much everything? The only un-challenged area that remains is the scope and of course, Star Citizen itself also has NOT delivered on that so far....CiG just talks about it a lot....
The way I see it is that CiG is fantasizing about new stuff and improvements then OTHER companies and video games make them a reality but thats not happening because of CiG and Star Citizen....apart from making up stuff then never delivering any of it CiG is at best guessing what other companies can do....because sure as hell CiG wont make any of it a reality.
edit2: while the comments seem to be rather careful and realistic it looks like all the white knights called in instead because the stuff some of the callers talk about is outright delusional.
edit: because his very first call addresses this age-old claim that "Star Citizen is pushing the whole industry forward"....that got me thinking.....
What exactly has Star Citizen achieved so far that is benefitting the rest of the video game industry in any way? CiG is talking about so many features they are working on and which they want to implement at one time....other games have them already. Is there any specific SC-only feature or mechanic or technology that was copied by other games or is being outsourced to help other projects? Because I cant think of any. The only thing that comes to mind is the "never been attempted before" and like it was so many times.....words are cheap...its high time to step up or shut up Chris.
0Why do some people cling to the dream that Star Citizen will advance the genre and all video games through advanced technologies and perfectionism when none of it is currently recognizable.....when other games catch up and even pass Star Citizen in pretty much everything? The only un-challenged area that remains is the scope and of course, Star Citizen itself also has NOT delivered on that so far....CiG just talks about it a lot....
The way I see it is that CiG is fantasizing about new stuff and improvements then OTHER companies and video games make them a reality but thats not happening because of CiG and Star Citizen....apart from making up stuff then never delivering any of it CiG is at best guessing what other companies can do....because sure as hell CiG wont make any of it a reality.
edit2: while the comments seem to be rather careful and realistic it looks like all the white knights called in instead because the stuff some of the callers talk about is outright delusional.
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"What exactly has Star Citizen achieved so far that is benefitting the rest of the video game industry in any way?"
They are showing the world how not to make a video game. All the things not to do. Showing you how important forward thinking is. Maybe when its all over its the type of situation that will be showed to people pursuing games design in school and tell them... Whatever way you do it, don't do it this way.
(Sorry I butchered your quote MTB, I dont do so good on mobile
)
They are showing the world how not to make a video game. All the things not to do. Showing you how important forward thinking is. Maybe when its all over its the type of situation that will be showed to people pursuing games design in school and tell them... Whatever way you do it, don't do it this way.
(Sorry I butchered your quote MTB, I dont do so good on mobile
)
CIG showed the entire world, on video, how the fibre doesn't reach the rack.
That was a moment of epic proportions. Some may not understand the significance of this, but trust me, it's right up there in the most historic events in gaming history.
Can they not just splice a few lengths onto that fibre already and be done with it?
The serious answer to the 'pushing the industry forward' is the noble idea of creating a AAA game unbeholden to imposed publisher limitations - ie budget, scope and time restraints.
Whilst I'm sure there are those in the industry with the discipline, experience and team to achieve this, Chris Roberts ain't the guy.
He has no working engine and no networking solution after 7 years and multiple multiple help from contractors and third parties.
It's a purely idealogical belief with no working tech to back it up, and to not recite it is to label oneself as part of the 'out group' to be banished, abused and threatened.
The serious answer to the 'pushing the industry forward' is the noble idea of creating a AAA game unbeholden to imposed publisher limitations - ie budget, scope and time restraints.
Whilst I'm sure there are those in the industry with the discipline, experience and team to achieve this, Chris Roberts ain't the guy.
He has no working engine and no networking solution after 7 years and multiple multiple help from contractors and third parties.
It's a purely idealogical belief with no working tech to back it up, and to not recite it is to label oneself as part of the 'out group' to be banished, abused and threatened.
In fact - Chris Roberts set out to show what could be achieved when a game designer is unshackled from publisher limitations, having previously suffered the embarrasment of being removed from a project in order to ship a product.
What he actually showed is the polar opposite - he simply isn't capable or competent. That's beyond dispute from a technological or organisational perspective.
By comparison, Frontier unshackled themselves from publishers by leveraging a modest kickstarter and have self published multiple titles on multiple platforms.
Chris only had to make one game and he couldn't manage it.
What he actually showed is the polar opposite - he simply isn't capable or competent. That's beyond dispute from a technological or organisational perspective.
By comparison, Frontier unshackled themselves from publishers by leveraging a modest kickstarter and have self published multiple titles on multiple platforms.
Chris only had to make one game and he couldn't manage it.
Instead of making a game... he made *this*
https://youtu.be/pFjM5nMQvdA
An unfathomable disaster, broken and absolutely riddled with unspeakably terrible design.
Watching this hour long video is a journey from hilarity into the truly surreal.
Thank you for playing Star Citizen, no refunds.
https://youtu.be/pFjM5nMQvdA
An unfathomable disaster, broken and absolutely riddled with unspeakably terrible design.
Watching this hour long video is a journey from hilarity into the truly surreal.
Thank you for playing Star Citizen, no refunds.
Jacques d'Orleans
Banned
Be assured that the gaming industry, specially the big ones like EA, Ubishaft, R* and so on, are very carefully studying CIG's business model of selling jpegs, macrotransactions, it could be the next future thing after lootboxes.
I think the latest mantra is that SC is the only game bringing these features together under one roof.
That does have a degree of truth....but ignores that little le that the reason other games don't have these features is because they add little or nothing to the game, or require so much in the way of resources they aren't worth adding (but maybe worth it in a few years when PCs are powerful enough) or simply require so much fine tuning or maintenance that they aren't worth the dollars to add.
Some would say...that is the point. CIGs funding model allows it to pay attention to such uneconomic levels of detail. But then, if that level of detail added that much to the game, other publishers would also be pushing ahead, just as they did with graphics and sound and video and freedom of choice.
The big reason other devs don't go for the same level of detail is that it costs too many dollars and adds too much of a performance hit while adding little or nothing to the game except increased complexity that programmers need to code and debug around.
Because, it is exciting to feel that you are part of something special. That's also part of the reason this forum exists.
Incorrect analogy.
Rather, the restaurant is headed by someone who made a good dish decades ago, and since then delivered mediocre food (Strike Commander anyone?) that looked great but tasted like styrofoam. He once started a cake but was kicked out of his own restaurant before it was done. It turned out ok but there is debate about whether he was instrumental to the end product as much as he claims.
Now he promises the best menu ever. He's in the kitchen for weeks. People are still waiting in his restaurant and paying in advance for ever new menu items he adds almost every hour. He also claims to be the first to make a souffle rise, which is controversial. He has some starters done but while they looked ok, they got stale by the time they left the kitchen and they didn't taste very good.
A whole group of people keeps running through the streets telling everyone how great the food in that restaurant is going to be. Oh and they get extra food if you order using their referral code. Sound familiar?
I have no analogy for the fact that as currently planned, a mid-sized ship requires 5000 hours of box delivery "gameplay" to purchase, or just a few hundred dollars. It is the worst example of pay to win in history, but for some reason it's ok because Fidelity.
You guys are weird.
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He does raise some good points and asks some good questions.
Like he's asking whether a caller thinks whether they will get at least some of the original scope within a reasonable amount of time. That's quite a difference from those who still believe a full release is current year + 1 or 2 away.
You should look back on this thread carefully. Most of it is harsh criticisms and ad-hominem attacks on Star Citizen and people leading the project.
It's looks like a really weird obsession for some... and thankfully doesn't tell anything about the Elite Dangerous community as a whole.
Quite a lot of which is justified.
Star Citizen has a LOT going bad that needs to be criticised. And the incompetence and mismanagement and even shady practises of those high up in CIG are valid targets for discussion.
But the main reason we are on V9 is that there is always some new scandal to dissect or analyse. A free fly weekend...a Con event...one of the latest patches...the ATV videos or emails...the law suit...it's an ongoing ever lasting roller coaster of a mess and, because it has the money and income stream to support development to the point we can see the results of their many, many, many poor decisions, a perfect example of how NOT to develop a game.
Some of it is warranted, some not. Harsh criticism is never a bad thing especially when companies are acting in ways contrary to their claims, or their supporter's claims. For example stating your game will not be pay to win and then introducing a serious pay to win business model, making wild statements about delivery dates, achievements etc. There is no harm at all in criticising that.
I think there was Total Biscuit (rest his soul) very good video about 'everything game' concept and how lure of such concept has been haunting space game genre for years, because sci-fi setting and never-ending nature of such games allow to dream big about that, it was done during NMS launch fiasco. He also pointed out that lack of very good and big space sim games as reason for unreasonable expectations for genre (which is very interesting angle I agreed with him on). In his opinion such game is possibly only in your mind, that in reality, such game would be complex, unplayable beast for most of players, while serving as niche fun playground for few ones.
Funny thing is that I really don't fully subscribe to such POV - I think in the middle somewhere such game IS possible. However if ED story is anything to go by, there are certain lessons you have to understand before taking on such gigantic task. First of all, staggering release. At first CIG pretended they will never do one. And when things dragged on, now everybody begs them to do MVP release. And it seems they can't be capable to even do one. Also such game will of course compromise a lot and will find lot of interesting middle grounds - which usually means there will be some disappointed gamers.
So that's how far theory goes about concept.
As for reality, CIG just shows how not to do things at all fronts. How not to lie to your backers, how not to create assets before gameplay design and overall concept of the game is not nailed down, how to find capable management who works on your behalf, and not to micromanage everything. And regarding ship JPEG sales yes it shows that there's enough weak minded gamers with lots of money. But all AAA publishers already knew that. Said that, for them such sales is liability of unfulfilled promises (even with pre-order craze most of AAA publishers push those extras and other pre-order stuff 1 month prior release max), opinion which CIG doesn't share with rest of the world.
In nutshell it is very interesting fable. I think for FD and anybody else taking big on space game genre have lot to digest regarding all this saga.
Funny thing is that I really don't fully subscribe to such POV - I think in the middle somewhere such game IS possible. However if ED story is anything to go by, there are certain lessons you have to understand before taking on such gigantic task. First of all, staggering release. At first CIG pretended they will never do one. And when things dragged on, now everybody begs them to do MVP release. And it seems they can't be capable to even do one. Also such game will of course compromise a lot and will find lot of interesting middle grounds - which usually means there will be some disappointed gamers.
So that's how far theory goes about concept.
As for reality, CIG just shows how not to do things at all fronts. How not to lie to your backers, how not to create assets before gameplay design and overall concept of the game is not nailed down, how to find capable management who works on your behalf, and not to micromanage everything. And regarding ship JPEG sales yes it shows that there's enough weak minded gamers with lots of money. But all AAA publishers already knew that. Said that, for them such sales is liability of unfulfilled promises (even with pre-order craze most of AAA publishers push those extras and other pre-order stuff 1 month prior release max), opinion which CIG doesn't share with rest of the world.
In nutshell it is very interesting fable. I think for FD and anybody else taking big on space game genre have lot to digest regarding all this saga.