The Star Citizen Thread v9

[Ian Skippy]

There's also a third group: the group that keeps reading/posting on this thread to constantly point out how awful/useless/pointless it is, and how other posters are, obviously, obsessed. Sleutelbos, since you're the prominent member of this group, I'll have to point it out: it's tiring how you keep sidetracking this thread to discuss posters as opposed to the game as you argue anyone should. It's always the same thing. You lie low for a while then it's yet another coming out attacking posters. Last time round you were even putting words into people's posts for which you have failed to produce any proof afterwards. Frankly, I'm not quite sure whether your aim is to try and bait people in getting banned or getting this thread locked once and for all. Either way, it's frankly in poor taste.

This thread is what it is. Your social opinions won't change neither people's perception of the game, nor how they feel about it's progress (or lack thereof, depending on where you stand). Yes, failure is amusing to some people in a certain context. If you can't understand that, you need to get out more and meet people. It's... sort of common to laugh at things. Anything. Heck, that's even how some of us cope with real tragedy.

If this thread is really so awful, you may just want to stay clear out of it. Here are a couple alternatives that you may enjoy considering they have a very different tone to this one:

Spectrum official community Hub
Star Citizen subreddit

While I'm not participating in the two above, I browse through them every now and then. They're far from perfect, but there's some good stuff to be found too, you should give it a try.

If, for some reason, you decide to keep sticking around, would it please be possible that you start leading by example and discuss the game rather than the local posters?

Actually, as usual it is someone else commentating (in this case Kaocraft, but there have been tons of other regulars): I just openly say I agree with them because I know the usual avalanche is coming their way. There is no evil plan or dark agenda, I just say I share the opinion of all those who came but left after the 'leave our echo chamber alone!' squad appears. And I can do that every single time this comes up, which will be forever as long as nothing changes.

And yes, I fid it amusing to see how touchy a bunch of people are who themselves love ridiculing strangers behind their back. And yes, I post on r/starcitizen. Which is why it is so amusing to see people here use the exact same flimsey rhetoric while pointing at those who do exactly the same.

Btw: the "if you dont like our posts go away!" argument matches poorly with "I dont like your posts so go away" argument. Cant have it both ways fellas.

 

[MTBFritz]

There is, actually. It's inherent in the very word you chose to use.

By the way, could you possibly respond to any of the points he made rather than just resort to various fallacies and implied accusations?

As you say, the issue at hand is the ready misinterpretation of "interest" with "obsession" and indeed there is a fine line because obsession usually starts with interest. But then....I am not daydreaming about how wonderful Star Citizen is going to be despite all the tell-tale signs and missing potential and I also dont throw hundreds of dollars on a stuff then defend my actions vehemently. Obsession is always bad because it usually indicates an over-the-top behavior. Thats why "faith" is good and "fanaticism" is bad.

 

[Tippis]

That said, it's not to say it can't be fun, I play far wonkier games than that, but the premise of ground breaking immersion/fidelity/whateveryoucallit seems a step too far from where I stand.

The classical distinction between “laugh at” and “laugh with” comes to mind.

And that is the inherent problem with “fun” as a qualifier or indicator of… well, anything, really. It especially isn't a mark of quality since ridicule is a form of entertainment in an of itself, as is interaction with other people — anything and everything can be “fun” if you combine those two, and if anything, it becomes more “fun” the worse the thing you're having fun with is.

It somewhat boggles the mind that we're still stumbling around in that same spot, even though we could trivially look at the decade(s)-old clash between ameritrash (or beer-and-pretzel, to use the kinder term) and eurogame design on the board-game side of things, where exactly that is the defining characteristic that separates the two. On the one hand, games as vehicles for just socialising; on the other hand, games as intricate systems to master. Each aims to achieve its own type of “fun,” but only one of the two variants actually derive its fun from the game itself. The problems start when you claim to be one type, but instead — mostly by accident — achieve the other.

There is no evil plan or dark agenda, I just say I share the opinion of all those who came but left after the 'leave our echo chamber alone!' squad appears.

…and you have plenty of examples of this, presumably? Could you share, say, one or maybe even two examples?

I fid it amusing to see how touchy a bunch of people are who themselves love ridiculing strangers behind their back.

…and you also have plenty of examples of this, presumably? Could you share a couple?

 

[Jacques d'Orleans]

This topic is for ridiculing a game, every setback is welcomed with big cheers.

First of all, what game? SC is now at best a pre-alpha tech demo build and SQ42 is no where to be seen, except a few trailers and a vertical slice video.

If something goes well, discussion is immediately shifted to other stuff. Kaocraft just says what many, many people have consistently been saying: the way Star Citizen has gotten under people's skin here is every bit as weird, obsessed and quite possibly psychologically unhealthy as 'the Cult' people here like to bash every single day, every single week, every single month, for over half a decade.

If something goes well? Umm, ok. IMHO there wasn't much which went well with both SC/SQ42, except their money printing scheme, that is ofc.

There isn't a "whole group of people keeps running through the streets telling everyone how great the food in that restaurant is going to be".

The restaurants are called Spectrum and r/starcitizen, it seems you haven't "dined" there very often recently.

The overwhelming opinion in gaming culture is that SC is the next Duke Nukem forever.

To be frank, it's way worse than that, the opinions range from scam over ponzi scheme to greatest gaming development disaster ever. DNF wasn't even near that amount of animosity.
If this project implodes and sooner or later it will, there will be a tremendous amount of fallout, for their employees, for the "backers", for crowdfunding and for the gaming industry.

Almost noone follows this project, but its on the periphery as that comical failure.

Almost noone follows this project? I know at least one other company who's following the project very very closely, its name is Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP. /s
Btw, failures in most cases are not comical, certainly not in the business world.
This failure of this project will have serious consequences for the people who work with CIG, specially the new hires fresh from college, be assured this will leave a stain on their CV which will make it quite hard to find another job after the death of SC.

Yes, it tells you a small group of people here are absolutely obsessed with Star Citizen. [haha]

Yes, we're terrible people, all the death threats, all those people whom spent thousands of dollars for a mans dream of a Pacific Palisades mansion and a fancy 27k coffee maker, all those weirdos who dress as hentai rabbits, all those hate against "him who shall not be named", all the forums we have hijacked in the past to shill out for the "BFSSE". Oh, wait.



I know why some people hate this forum, it is not because we are "obsessed" with the cult of crobbers, it is because they can't silence us and our opposition like they did e.g with The Escapist.
We are those who inform people about this incompetent tool and his "game project" and warn them not to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a nothing burger like SC/SQ42.
I take pride in the fact that I have persuaded at least a dozen people not to buy into CIG's "gimme mo' money fo' nothin'" scheme.
And be assured I will not be silent, I will not look away, I will continue to warn people about this farce of a game project.

 

[Fishy]

The classical distinction between “laugh at” and “laugh with” comes to mind.

And that is the inherent problem with “fun” as a qualifier or indicator of… well, anything, really. It especially isn't a mark of quality since ridicule is a form of entertainment in an of itself, as is interaction with other people — anything and everything can be “fun” if you combine those two, and if anything, it becomes more “fun” the worse the thing you're having fun with is.

It somewhat boggles the mind that we're still stumbling around in that same spot, even though we could trivially look at the decade(s)-old clash between ameritrash (or beer-and-pretzel, to use the kinder term) and eurogame design on the board-game side of things, where exactly that is the defining characteristic that separates the two. On the one hand, games as vehicles for just socialising; on the other hand, games as intricate systems to master. Each aims to achieve its own type of “fun,” but only one of the two variants actually derive its fun from the game itself. The problems start when you claim to be one type, but instead — mostly by accident — achieve the other.

No, I don't mean having fun because it's wonky, because, yes, of course that's a thing. I mean having fun enjoying the overall picture and possibilities and, well, accepting that the wonkiness is part of the price to pay for it. Gary's Mod is what they mention in the video and that resonated with me at the time, but it's also a lot like Arma3. ArmA can be rather awkward and annoying, and its air scene is a vast joke if compared to BMS or DCS, but you just learn to deal with it because at the end of the day, it still is a pretty cool sandbox. This is the kind of vibe this video gives me as a possible outcome for SC. I just can't see it all get fixed and look/feel realistic, there's just too much wrong. But if they end up having some decent-ish space flight and stuff to do on stations/planets, well, that'll probably be an entertaining sandbox. Sort of a new Star Wars Galaxies without the Disney IP I guess, where space flight exists while not being central?

 

[Goose4291]

Actually, as usual it is someone else commentating (in this case Kaocraft, but there have been tons of other regulars): I just openly say I agree with them because I know the usual avalanche is coming their way. There is no evil plan or dark agenda, I just say I share the opinion of all those who came but left after the 'leave our echo chamber alone!' squad appears. And I can do that every single time this comes up, which will be forever as long as nothing changes.

And yes, I fid it amusing to see how touchy a bunch of people are who themselves love ridiculing strangers behind their back. And yes, I post on r/starcitizen. Which is why it is so amusing to see people here use the exact same flimsey rhetoric while pointing at those who do exactly the same.

Btw: the "if you dont like our posts go away!" argument matches poorly with "I dont like your posts so go away" argument. Cant have it both ways fellas.

Exactly right. They hypocrisy you see in this thread would be tragic if it wasnt so hillarious.

Person A: *SC is going to fail because DS said so/Elite is better/I am well versed in Birdlaw and Crytek will soon be able to legally harvest Chris Roberts kidneys*
Person B: *Counters argument citing DS isnt all that and a bag of potato chips, Elite isnt quite the second coming that A thinks it is, and perhaps based on similar cases the lawsuit isnt going to bring the whole thing crashing down.*
Slew of posters: Stop talking about DS/Elite/actual law precedent person B! Thats offtopic irrelevant! LOL, buy an Idris!, cROBBERts, etc etc. *spam reports person B's post*

 

[Ian Skippy]

If something goes well? Umm, ok. IMHO there wasn't much which went well with both SC/SQ42, except their money printing scheme, that is ofc.

People in this topic kept saying CIG couldnt have actual planetary landings. Then people kept saying FPS would never be playable. The 'game' now objectively is performing above what people here said would be possible. It is immediately discarded and attention shifts towards the next thing that isnt done/in.

I know why some people hate this forum, it is not because we are "obsessed" with the cult of crobbers, it is because they can't silence us and our opposition like they did e.g with The Escapist.
We are those who inform people about this incompetent tool and his "game project" and warn them not to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a nothing burger like SC/SQ42.
I take pride in the fact that I have persuaded at least a dozen people not to buy into CIG's "gimme mo' money fo' nothin'" scheme.
And be assured I will not be silent, I will not look away, I will continue to warn people about this farce of a game project.

And here is the interesting thing. Check my reddit account, and read my comments on r/starcitizen (https://www.reddit.com/user/Sleutelbos/comments?sort=top). Tell me I am in any way positive or hopeful about the project; you cant. Then notice that, on average, I get solid positive upvote counts there. In the evil pit of the cult. Then notice this is the only forum where I have explicitly been called a SC white knight, and even a SC shill. Maybe that should tell you something about how incredibly slanted and biased this place has become.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Maybe that should tell you something about how incredibly slanted and biased this place has become.

The thing is, my dear Sleut, is that many of us are slanted against CIG because we gave them money and they have produced zero games, and there is a bias against pretending there is a game when in fact, we still have zero games from CIG.

Now, if CIG somehow manage to pull their finger out and stop Genuine Roberts from handwaving waffle for the next decade, finally say "enough is enough" and set development goals that they can then realistically reach and produce Star Citizen as at least the much-touted Minimum Viable Product and iterate upon from there - at least they would have something to call a game, and product to deliver to backers. The constant and repeated reworking of assets and cinematics isn't delivering the BDSSE - that's all stuff you add to the BDSSE.

 

[Zetta]

Exactly right. They hypocrisy you see in this thread would be tragic if it wasnt so hillarious.

Person A: *SC is going to fail because DS said so/Elite is better/I am well versed in Birdlaw and Crytek will soon be able to legally harvest Chris Roberts kidneys*
Person B: *Counters argument citing DS isnt all that and a bag of potato chips, Elite isnt quite the second coming that A thinks it is, and perhaps based on similar cases the lawsuit isnt going to bring the whole thing crashing down.*
Slew of posters: Stop talking about DS/Elite/actual law precedent person B! Thats offtopic irrelevant! LOL, buy an Idris!, cROBBERts, etc etc. *spam reports person B's post*

This sounds like a very balanced and impartial view of this thread.

And here is the interesting thing. Check my reddit account, and read my comments on r/starcitizen (https://www.reddit.com/user/Sleutelbos/comments?sort=top). Tell me I am in any way positive or hopeful about the project; you cant. Then notice that, on average, I get solid positive upvote counts there. In the evil pit of the cult. Then notice this is the only forum where I have explicitly been called a SC white knight, and even a SC shill. Maybe that should tell you something about how incredibly slanted and biased this place has become.

Well that's because you are talking about Star Citizen whereas a large deal of your posts here are aimed at the posters rather than the game.
If you started making comments about the sub regulars I doubt it would be appreciated there either, you're also dealing with what? 8-10 people here? as opposed to hundreds or thousands on the sub reddit.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

This sounds like a very balanced and impartial view of this thread.

BURN THE WITCH!

 

[Jacques d'Orleans]

People in this topic kept saying CIG couldnt have actual planetary landings. Then people kept saying FPS would never be playable. The 'game' now objectively is performing above what people here said would be possible. It is immediately discarded and attention shifts towards the next thing that isnt done/in.

While this is ofc true, SC itself is still miles away from that where it should be right now.
Core game elements still missing after 7 years isn't really a success story, IMHO.

And here is the interesting thing. Check my reddit account, and read my comments on r/starcitizen (https://www.reddit.com/user/Sleutelbos/comments?sort=top). Tell me I am in any way positive or hopeful about the project; you cant. Then notice that, on average, I get solid positive upvote counts there. In the evil pit of the cult. Then notice this is the only forum where I have explicitly been called a SC white knight, and even a SC shill. Maybe that should tell you something about how incredibly slanted and biased this place has become.

First of all, don't take my post as an personal atttack it wasn't intended as such. Maybe I used a brush a bit to broad.
No need to chek some others reddit history, I'll just take your word for it. Albeit I had some "followers" which followed me into every reddit post I made and donwvoted him, until recently. Not that I woud gaf about karma points anyways.
IIRC, I never called you the one or the other, if I did so, it was maybe in the heat of the moment and I apologize for it..
I wouldn't call it slanted and or biased, some peolpe react that way because of the hand on experiences, lessons learned about that project.
I don't know, tbh.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The thing is, my dear Sleut, is that many of us are slanted against CIG because we gave them money and they have produced zero games, and there is a bias against pretending there is a game when in fact, we still have zero games from CIG.

That's why it's an Alpha and not yet released and in production.

Sure, it's not released on their first PROPOSED year (no date, merely a year) and their pushing of the release date forward can be seen as an annoyance.

But honestly, comparing the old material for the 2014 release as compared to what we are (slowly) getting I rather take the delay - there are plenty of other games in the sea until release.

Also, if you were in the kickstarter you KNEW it was a RISK and no guarantee. If not, you would be required to do your own research.

To be clear though, MANY game companies have had pre-orders (not kickstarters) and failed and none of those customers got their money back because there were no money to GET back.

This is no different. There are NO guarantees that something will be done.

 

[Tippis]

Person A: *SC is going to fail because DS said so/Elite is better/I am well versed in Birdlaw and Crytek will soon be able to legally harvest Chris Roberts kidneys*

[citation needed]

…in fact, that goes for that whole imagined exchange.

No, I don't mean having fun because it's wonky, because, yes, of course that's a thing. I mean having fun enjoying the overall picture and possibilities and, well, accepting that the wonkiness is part of the price to pay for it. Gary's Mod is what they mention in the video and that resonated with me at the time, but it's also a lot like Arma3. ArmA can be rather awkward and annoying, and its air scene is a vast joke if compared to BMS or DCS, but you just learn to deal with it because at the end of the day, it still is a pretty cool sandbox. This is the kind of vibe this video gives me as a possible outcome for SC. I just can't see it all get fixed and look/feel realistic, there's just too much wrong. But if they end up having some decent-ish space flight and stuff to do on stations/planets, well, that'll probably be an entertaining sandbox. Sort of a new Star Wars Galaxies without the Disney IP I guess, where space flight exists while not being central?

Ah, ok. Yes, that's a slightly different matter.

I think that one thing that ArmA (to say nothing of Gary's Mod) has going for it is that the wonk works in its favour. Gary's Mod is inherently silly. If it creates silly things, then that's pretty much intended. ArmA, while often comically serious, is still aware of its limitations and works towards providing some sense of actual immersion (as abused and misused as that term often is in relation to SC). Things are, in a sense, supposed to go wrong because grr grr, adapt and overcome, hooah and all that. BMS and DCS do the same, but from a different angle: it creates immersion through realism and genre convention, but very deliberately cuts out some real-life components because those would just get in the way and squeeze out the more critical parts.

Neither seems to be an option for SC: it takes itself far too seriously to become a deliberate wonkfest like Gary's Mod — if it did, it would just become Goat Simulator: A Waste of Space. It is also far too invested in the whole notion of “fidelity” at any cost, especially at the expensive of immersion, and without any proper grounding or referent that would make it realistic.

That said, sure: if SC dialled down on the “fidelity” and all its false pretensions to realism, and instead went for well-grounded immersion in the genre conventions — kind of what was initially hinted at with that whole “Freelancer, but newer and bigger” — then that could conceivably yield some kind of satisfying entertainment. And after all, it was that initial suggestion that seemed so enticing to so many.

 

[Goose4291]

I'm getting a whole Mass Effect nostalgia thing from this video.

[video=youtube;hC6vGXcJzPo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC6vGXcJzPo[/video]

 

[Asp Explorer]

Then it's all the backers fault.

We didn't buy enough Idrises

 

[Sweet&Dandy]

I honestly wish the ED forum was exclusively reserved for ED discussion, then this thread could be shut for good. Nothing good has ever come of it and it casts the rest of the forum in a negative light

 

[Stigbob]

"We aren't obsessed, you just have no real arguments. I have identified some FUDsters who are just here to cause trouble, but I am on to them. And if you really think we are so bad, why do you keep reading this and posting about us? We dont have a problem, you have a problem! Just go away!"

The fun part is that just by looking at these words you just typed I couldn't tell if this was from Spectrum, r/StarCitizen or this topic. [haha]

"Now let me finish another +-2000 word post, one of many hundred such posts, about this game I have only a fleeting interest in. I am not obsessed, I just literally write thousands of pages about a single computer game on a subforum read by a handful of people."

Listen, there is nothing even that wrong with being obsessed about Star Citizen. But this constant "Look at those weird SC-fans!!!!" rhetoric combined with an absolute 100% complete lack of any self-awareness just boggles the mind. But it is an absolute goldmine to a psychologist.

Who's the more obsessive, the obsessive or the obsessive who obsesses about the obsessive ?.

 

[Jacques d'Orleans]

Exactly right. They hypocrisy you see in this thread would be tragic if it wasnt so hillarious.

Person A: *SC is going to fail because DS said so/Elite is better/I am well versed in Birdlaw and Crytek will soon be able to legally harvest Chris Roberts kidneys*
Person B: *Counters argument citing DS isnt all that and a bag of potato chips, Elite isnt quite the second coming that A thinks it is, and perhaps based on similar cases the lawsuit isnt going to bring the whole thing crashing down.*
Slew of posters: Stop talking about DS/Elite/actual law precedent person B! Thats offtopic irrelevant! LOL, buy an Idris!, cROBBERts, etc etc. *spam reports person B's post*

DS is a verbose a*****e. ED, is at least a released game, which has many points to be critized for and this forum is full of such threads.
Crobears kidneys? Maybe with some fava beans and a nice Chianti...
Bird law? What has the Migratory Bird Treaty Act from 1918 to do with CryTek v CIG? I can't follow your line of reasoning here.

 

[Cmdr-Wotherspoon]

I honestly wish the ED forum was exclusively reserved for ED discussion, then this thread could be shut for good. Nothing good has ever come of it and it casts the rest of the forum in a negative light

That would be a shame. There's a lot of nonsense talked here for sure, but there are also plenty of interesting insights. I follow this thread because I care about the future of Star Citizen, and there was a time when the RSI forum was closed to dissenting voices (that seemed to change after the move to Spectrum, which seems to tolerate more diverse views). The Star Citizen Reddit is unfortunately still somewhat intolerant, in my view.

For what it's worth, I'm seeing signs from the UK part of RSI (Foundry 42) that they're finally getting their game sorted out, and that 3.3 and subsequent releases are beginning to show some of the promise we've been hoping for.

For anyone that feels tribal about these two different games (ED and SC), I'd remind you that (a) Chris Roberts was tremendously supportive of the launch of the Elite: Dangerous Kickstarter, and David Braben has voiced ongoing support for the development of Star Citizen, and (b) you are allowed to own and play more than one game.

 

[Jacques d'Orleans]

Who's the more obsessive, the obsessive or the obsessive who obsesses about the obsessive ?.

I'll take obsessed for 400, Alex.