Proposal for a new balanced limpet controller

CMDR Spadino · Dec 5, 2018

So, following the forum and all thread opened asking for, it seems that a great part of the player base is toward a unified limpet controller. Many aspect of the current limpet controllers are very unbelievable from a realistic point of view (such as their weight!) and, obviously, are more like placeholders to provide a sort of balancing in outfit the ships and use it.

I think on an unified limpet controller ALWAYS I need to fit one in one of my ship: why a 7 class controller weight 32 tons, yet do not provide any limpet by its own? Ok, they can control a maximum of 4 limpets (not sure why, maybe caused by the power cbsumption and the limits a 7 class slot can provide to its child module) but WHY it can provide ONLY ONE kind of behavior? Limpets are drone: they do what they need do be done. Currently, they are all the same, so there's no point at all in having half a dozen of specialized controllers which control the very same limpet in different ways: we are talking about software here, not hardware.
That's point us toward two different scenarios to have a more polished limpets mechanic:

software controlled limpets
specialized limpets

1) software controller limpets

In this scenarios, we have just one kind controller, available in 1, 3, 5 and 7 size slot, as current, whith software subslots (like hangars). Each class can control a limited number of limpets at the same time (same power consumption related hypothesis as introduction). They will store limpets as ammo, which must be restock by synthesis or market. Limpets could be stored also as cargo, of course, but they should need a short amount of time to be prepared.
Here a brief summary:

Class	Ammo	Slots	Max # limpets
1	4	2	1
3	8	3	2
5	16	4	3
7	32	5	4

All controllers should weight the same when empty (2ton) and possibly able to be modified somewhat by engineers...

2) specialized limpet
Thus scenario probably us the less desiderable, yet provide a more realistic approach. It suggest have different kind of limpets, which could be deployed in some different ways, by a unified controller.
So, there could be limpets which can provide "remote action" (like collection, hatch braking, repair, etc...) or "remote acknowledgement" (prospector, recon, research, etc...). The controller still will be able to provide a limited amount of limpets as ammo, but they can be only of a type (silly balancing &#55357;&#56841

. You can stock any amount of limpet as cargo, but again a time will be needed to process them and restock the controller. In this case, at least two controllers will be needed for a miner ship.

Summary:
A controller will have an amount of software slots, as previously suggested, but it can host only related softwares (remote "action" or "acknowledging"). It provide limpets as ammo, in the same way, but only of the same kind of softwares. Restock, synthesis and deployment as first scenario.

Both solution sounds quite appealing to me. I would love to hear about the community in regard.

Fly safe,
CMDR Spadino

Limoncello Lizard · Dec 5, 2018

Limpet controllers need reworking from the ground up. The speed, time to deploy, flight path, module scaling, sheer number of different types - all of these need improving.

The worst thing about them (which you've kept) is the totally ridiculous way they scale. A class 7 controller is 4 times larger than a class-5 one, yet only controls one more limpet.

Also, your proposal doesn't hold any where near enough limpets. My Cutter uses 4 class-5 collector controllers and a class-3 prospector. I take about 320 limpets to go mining. Your suggestion would have a total of 67, which is a pathetic number.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead · Dec 5, 2018

Limoncello Lizard said:
Limpet controllers need reworking from the ground up. The speed, time to deploy, flight path, module scaling, sheer number of different types - all of these need improving.

The worst thing about them (which you've kept) is the totally ridiculous way they scale. A class 7 controller is 4 times larger than a class-5 one, yet only controls one more limpet.

Also, your proposal doesn't hold any where near enough limpets. My Cutter uses 4 class-5 collector controllers and a class-3 prospector. I take about 320 limpets to go mining. Your suggestion would have a total of 67, which is a pathetic number.

If they were faster, lasted longer, and didn't suicide in to things, those 67 would probably be enough.
Not to mention, if synthesis rearmed half or all of the magazine, instead of just 1.

But yeah, I'd probably up the ammo count anyway.

Exeider · Dec 5, 2018

two words:

DRONE.....BAY.......

Lestat · Dec 5, 2018

Limoncello Lizard said:
Limpet controllers need reworking from the ground up. The speed, time to deploy, flight path, module scaling, sheer number of different types - all of these need improving.

The worst thing about them (which you've kept) is the totally ridiculous way they scale. A class 7 controller is 4 times larger than a class-5 one, yet only controls one more limpet.

Also, your proposal doesn't hold any where near enough limpets. My Cutter uses 4 class-5 collector controllers and a class-3 prospector. I take about 320 limpets to go mining. Your suggestion would have a total of 67, which is a pathetic number.

Question is that Current build or Beta build? I found my current build pre Beta. I would hold 500 plus limpets. But my Beta builds I had a problem with some of the newer mining mechanics.

Now I ok with Limpets being a little faster. But I found moving my ship cargo hatch closer to Ore does help.

I use 3 Class-5 Collectors controllers and a class 3 prospector. Holds 576

MK Regular · Dec 6, 2018

A few things:

Size 7 limpet controllers are not always 32 tons. All of the 7Ds and the 7E collectors are the only ones that are 32 tons. All of the other size 7 controllers are 80 or 128 tons.
Not all size 7 limpet controllers have 4 active limpets. The collector, repair, and decontamination limpets are the only size 7 controllers that ONLY come with 4 active limpets. The other size 7 controllers come with different numbers of active limpets (Recon gets 1, Fuel and Prospector get 8, Hatch breaker gets 12-18 depending on grade).
As Limoncello Lizard pointed out, the number of limpets you have decided on for each size of controller is FAR too low for the current system. Either the limpet capacity of the controllers needs to be increased, or the capabilities of the limpets (particularly active lifetime and flight pathing ability) needs to be improved.

With that out of the way, I would balance the controllers racks as follows:

Size	Mass	# Slots	Active Limpets	Max Limpets
1	1.3	1	1	5
3	5	2	2	15
5	20	3	4	40
7	80	4	8	120

Limpet controllers still won't quite scale proportionally to size, but the there is at least SOME use for a large limpet controller (even if it probably isn't enough). For most casual limpet use (i.e. not piracy, mining, or material gathering), a single size 3 controller would probably be sufficient for just about everything you plan on doing (like the new BGS USSs that need fuel/repair limpets). I'm not quite sure how to scale the size 5/7 controllers so that they are still somewhat in line with the size 1/3 controllers, especially as far as ammo count is concerned (remembering that limpets are no longer considered cargo). Maybe a reduction in synthesis costs?

Of course, things can be tweaked here. Some stats can be dependent on the class rating of the controller (mass, max range, power draw, max limpets, etc...), and I would consider the stats I gave to be applicable to A-rated or C-rated controllers.

Edit: missed the bit in OP about limpets as cargo. That would certainly help with making larger controllers work without forcing them to have MASSIVE reserves of limpets.

The only thing that I think may be holding back limpets with dual cargo/controller storage is the dynamic mass of the controller. Currently, the only modules in the game that can dynamically change mass have zero mass themselves, and I'm not sure whether or not this is for technical reasons. If FDev can get it to work I can imagine a few other modules that could use a rework with dynamic mass (the SRV bay comes to mind).

CMDR Spadino · Dec 6, 2018

Limoncello Lizard said:
Limpet controllers need reworking from the ground up. The speed, time to deploy, flight path, module scaling, sheer number of different types - all of these need improving.

The worst thing about them (which you've kept) is the totally ridiculous way they scale. A class 7 controller is 4 times larger than a class-5 one, yet only controls one more limpet.

Also, your proposal doesn't hold any where near enough limpets. My Cutter uses 4 class-5 collector controllers and a class-3 prospector. I take about 320 limpets to go mining. Your suggestion would have a total of 67, which is a pathetic number.

Thanks for your answer. However, if you read my proposal with attention, you'll notice that I explicitly wrote that limpets will continue to be stored ALSO as cargo. So, there's nothing prevent you in have 320 limpets at your disposal, or 500.

CMDR Spadino · Dec 6, 2018

MK_Regular said:
A few things:

Size 7 limpet controllers are not always 32 tons. All of the 7Ds and the 7E collectors are the only ones that are 32 tons. All of the other size 7 controllers are 80 or 128 tons.

Not all size 7 limpet controllers have 4 active limpets. The collector, repair, and decontamination limpets are the only size 7 controllers that ONLY come with 4 active limpets. The other size 7 controllers come with different numbers of active limpets (Recon gets 1, Fuel and Prospector get 8, Hatch breaker gets 12-18 depending on grade).

As Limoncello Lizard pointed out, the number of limpets you have decided on for each size of controller is FAR too low for the current system. Either the limpet capacity of the controllers needs to be increased, or the capabilities of the limpets (particularly active lifetime and flight pathing ability) needs to be improved.

With that out of the way, I would balance the controllers racks as follows:

Size Mass # Slots Active Limpets Max Limpets
1 1.3 1 1 5
3 5 2 2 15
5 20 3 4 40
7 80 4 8 120

Limpet controllers still won't quite scale proportionally to size, but the there is at least SOME use for a large limpet controller (even if it probably isn't enough). For most casual limpet use (i.e. not piracy, mining, or material gathering), a single size 3 controller would probably be sufficient for just about everything you plan on doing (like the new BGS USSs that need fuel/repair limpets). I'm not quite sure how to scale the size 5/7 controllers so that they are still somewhat in line with the size 1/3 controllers, especially as far as ammo count is concerned (remembering that limpets are no longer considered cargo). Maybe a reduction in synthesis costs?

Of course, things can be tweaked here. Some stats can be dependent on the class rating of the controller (mass, max range, power draw, max limpets, etc...), and I would consider the stats I gave to be applicable to A-rated or C-rated controllers.

You are right. I considered only the D class, I forgot that they changes (ridiculously...!). However, I CLEARLY wrote that limpets could be carried ALSO as cargo, so... nothing changes about the maximum limits you can have onboard.

Consider that having a fixed mass of 80 tons for the 7 class controller doesn't make sense. It's ok if it is storing 120 limpets, but how when it's depleted? I think that having a fixed weight of, said, 4-2-4-6-4 tons for depleted E-D-C-B-A classes, and each limpet add 0.5 ton, seems more reasonable to me. So, we can reach a progression like that:

Class	Size	Weight	Slots	Max Active	Max Storage	Range	Time
E	1	4	1	1	6	0.8km	5:00
E	3	4	1	2	12	0.88km	6:00
E	5	4	2	3	24	1.04km	7:00
E	7	4	2	4	48	1.36km	8:00

D	1	2	1	1	4	0.6km	10:00
D	3	2	1	2	8	0.66km	11:00
D	5	2	2	3	16	0.78km	12:00
D	7	2	2	4	32	1.02km	13:00

C	1	4	2	1	6	1km	8:30
C	3	4	2	2	12	1.1km	9:30
C	5	4	3	3	24	1.3km	10:30
C	7	4	3	4	48	1.7km	11:30

B	1	6	2	1	10	1.6km	12:00
B	3	6	2	2	20	1.85km	13:00
B	5	6	3	3	40	2.10	14:00
E	7	6	3	4	80	2:50km	15:00

A	1	4	2	2	12	1.2km	10:00
A	3	4	2	3	24	1.32km	11:00
A	5	4	3	4	48	1.56km	12:00
A	7	4	4	5	96	2.04km	13:00

Than, some softwares can modify somewhat those stats:

Collection (+50 time)
Fuel Transfer (+50% active limpets)
Hatch Breaker (more limpets speed: +10%, +15%, +20% and +30%)
Prospector (+25% range)
Repair
Recon
Decontamination
Research (more range: 10%, 15%, 20% and 30%)
Delivery (can be used to deliver cargo to outpost without dock)
Radar Scrambler (scramble the enemies radar in range...)
Canopy Breaker (attach to an enemy canopy and explode it)
Drive Hacking (attach to an enemy thrust, trying to hack it for failure)
...

And, of course, they can receive modification from engineers:

Controller Cluster (+25%, +50%, +75% and +100% active limpets)
Reusable (2, 3 and 4 times, if collected manually or by another limpet)
Autonome (function on ship systems shutdown - to repair power plant?)
Long Range (+10%, +15%, +20%, +30% and +40% range)
Light Weight (-20%, -30%, -40%, -50% and -75% weight
Nano-engineering (+1 and +2 slots...)
...

Class E remain the more economic, yet somewhat limited. D class is the lightweight and short range class, yet good for spare uses and for explorer and fuel rats. C class is the midterm. B class are slightly heavier, because they are the long range and long time classes. A class has most benefits, staying in between the performance of the C and B class... they can even have more slots in the upper range.

I think that this is a good direction to follow. We could improve on this, to reach a satisfactorily mature proposal for the Devs.

Lestat · Dec 6, 2018

andreaspada said:
Thanks for your answer. However, if you read my proposal with attention, you'll notice that I explicitly wrote that limpets will continue to be stored ALSO as cargo. So, there's nothing prevent you in have 320 limpets at your disposal, or 500.

Thing is Limpets do carry Weight.

CMDR Spadino · Dec 6, 2018

Lestat said:
Thing is Limpets do carry Weight.

Yep. That means that the more limpet you carry, the more weight you carry. Simple.

If you want more limpet than the number the controller offer, you need a cargo rack. A C3 controller, for example, will weight alone 4 tons; it can carry 12 limpets by its own. That's mean it will weight 16 tons, when full. If you want more limpets, just add a cargo rack. Whenever the storage be depleted, you can move 12 blank limpets to the controller; they will be prepared by and ready to be used in a short time.

Of course I'm not sure a limpet could weight 1 ton: that's pretty heavy! Something like 1/4 or 1/2 a ton each should be more fair...

Hal 9000 and Dave · Dec 6, 2018

I signed in just to make a suggestion about limpits, glad to see im not the only one who feels this way.

jmp470 · Dec 6, 2018

This request, or similar ones, has been going on for a very long time.

Lestat · Dec 6, 2018

andreaspada said:
Yep. That means that the more limpet you carry, the more weight you carry. Simple.

I think the current way is fine. I can farm for mats for Limpets if needed. If I am exploring. Keep my weight down and an empty cargo hold. If I need Limpets I make them. See common sense.

If you want more limpet than the number the controller offer, you need a cargo rack. A C3 controller, for example, will weight alone 4 tons; it can carry 12 limpets by its own. That's mean it will weight 16 tons, when full. If you want more limpets, just add a cargo rack. Whenever the storage be depleted, you can move 12 blank limpets to the controller; they will be prepared by and ready to be used in a short time.

I think it more common Sense gameplay is what needed. When I mine ore I Max out my cargo hold and use a large Refinery to hold extra cargo. When I do combat I only I carry a small collector and 32 cargo of limpets on my new account. When I start collecting Mats for making Limpets I will Make 10 at a time with a 16-ton cargo hold it works out well. I able to keep my weight down when needed.

Of course I'm not sure a limpet could weight 1 ton: that's pretty heavy! Something like 1/4 or 1/2 a ton each should be more fair...

Well they are 1 ton. When a new player starts they have everything against them. Like my Cobra MKIII. It a combat ship it has 32 cargo hold and a collector. Earlier ships I would scoop stuff my self with no cargo hold.

Besides we don't need a Magic cargo storage.