PvP Two questions about shields

[The Red Wake]

*The following questions are from the lense of a federal corvette or similar size ships*

Question 1: I've seen many talk about the use of prismatics, but after looking at the stats via in-game and on coriolis I just cant seem to fathom why you would ever use them. As this may be an error in my perspective or a general lack of understanding I will try to illustrate my thinking on this.

The supposed strength of prismatics is that it gives you significant protection upfront in the form of raw MJ shield strength. This comes at the cost of higher power plant and distributor requirements, and a reduced regeneration and broken regeneration rate. The latter will be the point of contention in my observance. Conversely, Bi-weave offer a lower upfront MJ shield strength but deliever a significantly higher regen/broken regen rate, lower distributor and power plant draw.

Conventional wisdom and builds seem to converge on 2 points: Heavily resistant bi-weave builds and High MJ prismatic builds (with some slight balancing of thermal values to pull them out of the negative ranges). In both instances for the more shield-centric ships, the use of SCBs follows accordingly. As has been expressed many times, the former benefits far more from the replinishment of SCB's.

The previously mentioned contention is this: At the moment that the initial shield values of prismatics are depleted and the use of SCB's commence, these shield types seem to be more of a hinderance rather than a benefit. Bi-weaves regeneration capability cannot be ignored when considering the length of engagements as it alleviates some of the depedancy on the use of SCB's. At a cursory glance, Prismatics offer a 1.1 regen rate and bi-weaves offer 4.4. Over the course of 1 minute that equates to 66 vs 264. By observation, pvp engagements seem last on the low end ("fair fights") about 5 minutes which adjusts these values to 330 vs 1320. This disparity seems magnified significantly when one starts to consider resistances, engineering and the previously mentioned "popular builds". In effect, that 1320 shield replenishment goes alot further.

So what is it that I am missing in this equation? Surely I am missing something, but I just cant seem to put my finger on it.



Question 2:

Over the course of two years of play I've seen many players ask about the function of the SYS distributor and its effects on shielding. Again, conventional wisdom points out that more pips to SYS = hardened shields, yet fails to explain how or to source their conclusions. Based on some conversations and testing via coriolis and npc's it would seem that resistances are in no way modified and that overall shield integrity is also not effected. The remaining consideration seems to be one of the shields regeneration rate relative the current fullness of the SYS distributor, though I've struggled to find any source from FDEV that definitively solves this curiosity. This has a massive impact, in my opinion, on the use of SYS pip management if it is ultimately relegated to the ability of the distributor to effectively keep its capacity above 51%.

Does anyone have a source explaining this in great(er) detail?


Wrap-up:

Ultimately what I am searching for is empirical and sourcable facts, even if it means the assertions and hypothesis above are incorrect. Any input and feedback of this nature would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[Krash]

There are smarter CMDRs here on this subject so I'll keep my answers short and hopefully they will confirm and expand.

Q1: Prismatics are best for PvP encounters due to the raw MJ plus SCB charges. You typically don't have much down time to regen shields anyway and its 1 encounter between visits to the station.

Bi-weaves are best for PvE endurance runs such as Haz Res where you have opportunities to regen your shields.

Q2: I know from researching the forums that your raw MJ strength = 2.4 * MJ // 4 pips to sys. I engineer my combat ships around this concept as much as possible. I do have empirical evidence to support shields are exponentially stronger with 4 pips. The exact multiplier is impossible to prove.

Hope this helps.

 

[Non Grata]

though I've struggled to find any source from FDEV that definitively solves this curiosity.

I can't provide a source, but I remember patch notes from a couple of years ago stating that the pips to sys numbers had been changed - lots of people were using 4 pips by default, and they wanted to make fewer pips an option. Fairly sure this was in relation to strength, not recharge.

edit: an old thread with old numbers:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/138536-SYS-PIP-Shield-Damage-Resistance-Tested

edit: proof in quote:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Shields-strenght-in-relation-to-SYS-pips-test

 

[The Red Wake]

Q2: I know from researching the forums that your raw MJ strength = 2.4 * MJ // 4 pips to sys. I engineer my combat ships around this concept as much as possible. I do have empirical evidence to support shields are exponentially stronger with 4 pips. The exact multiplier is impossible to prove.

Correct me if i am wrong, but you are saying that a corvette with 6000 shield integrity has 14,400 shields the moment they put 4 pips to SYS (assuming non-damaged)? And this multiplier on the raw MJ is at any point you shove 4 pips to SYS? Could you provide any kind of documentation for that?

I have no doubt that shields are stronger, but really i am wondering at the mechanism that makes them so. It's been quite difficult finding any real concrete data on this point.

Thank you for your input, definitely something else I'll have to consider.

 

[The Red Wake]

I can't provide a source, but I remember patch notes from a couple of years ago stating that the pips to sys numbers had been changed - lots of people were using 4 pips by default, and they wanted to make fewer pips an option. Fairly sure this was in relation to strength, not recharge.

edit: an old thread with old numbers:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/138536-SYS-PIP-Shield-Damage-Resistance-Tested

edit: proof in quote:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Shields-strenght-in-relation-to-SYS-pips-test

Thank you for these forum posts, I will review them more thoroughly later.

Based a cursory review, the graphs only measure the time to drain shields while underfire. The issue with these kinds of data sets is that it does not provide you with distributor information. Ex: As the ship was underfire was the distributor capactiy drained? If yes, how much at regular intervals. Did this change below 51% capacity? How is shield regen considered? Unfortunately, these dont seem to provide much in the way of thorough collection.

Either that or i'm an idiot. <---this is likely

 

[Krash]

Correct me if i am wrong, but you are saying that a corvette with 6000 shield integrity has 14,400 shields the moment they put 4 pips to SYS (assuming non-damaged)? And this multiplier on the raw MJ is at any point you shove 4 pips to SYS? Could you provide any kind of documentation for that?

I have no doubt that shields are stronger, but really i am wondering at the mechanism that makes them so. It's been quite difficult finding any real concrete data on this point.

Thank you for your input, definitely something else I'll have to consider.

That's exactly what I saying. Coriolis used to publish these numbers when you changed the Sys pip count on their sheet, but that doesnt work anymore. And its even higher if you calculate resistances.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/6id3te/sys_pip_management/

These are player test results with videos. You will have to conduct your own tests to prove them since FDEV is not going to confirm these numbers.

As for the power distributor, that's a no brainer for combat ships: Charge Enhanced + Super Conduits. I dont know the specifics only that it works best.

 

[Arguendo]

Concerning pips to shields, they were covered in the 2.3 Change logs here:

Changed the exponent of the curve used for shield resistance from power distributor pips to make it less harsh. 0 and 4 pips are unchanged, middle values now have a higher damage resistance. Specifically changed from 2->0.85, which means that 2 pip has an increased damage resistance from 15%->33% (0 pip stays at 0%, 4 pip stays at 60%). This change means that the TTL (Time To Live) increase of each additional half-pip is approximately the same, rather than almost nothing to start and spiking up towards the end, hopefully allowing players to use setups other than 4-SYS with less penalty. Does not affect CQC ships

What it basically says is that with 4 pips to sys, you take 40% damage. At 2 pips you take 67%.

 

[Krash]

Concerning pips to shields, they were covered in the 2.3 Change logs here:



What it basically says is that with 4 pips to sys, you take 40% damage. At 2 pips you take 67%.

Math is hard. Does 40% dmg reduction equate to having (2.4*MJ) shield strength?

 

[Arguendo]

Math is hard. Does 40% dmg reduction equate to having (2.4*MJ) shield strength?

2.5 to be exact. 40% x 2.5 = 100%

Edit: The math is a bit awkward though, which is why it's easier to just say "you take 40% damage"

 

[The Red Wake]

Concerning pips to shields, they were covered in the 2.3 Change logs here:



What it basically says is that with 4 pips to sys, you take 40% damage. At 2 pips you take 67%.

Mostly what I was looking for! Tyvm.

Now to figure out how that resistance works.

Dont suppose you have another fancy post detailing that? XD

 

[Morbad]

A note about distributor draw: it's per MJ of shield regenerated, which makes actual distributor draw highest, by far, on bi-weaves, especially as they get larger.

Anyway, the advantage of prismatics is that upfront shield strength, which rapidly compounds into a significant difference as you add boosters. Since one cannot always ensure one will be able to regenerate shields, or get off uninterrupted SCB charges (feedback rails are extremely common, for good reason), there is often a strong argument to use them. SCBs are often frequently omitted for increased hull protection, or other reasons.

Personally, I favor bi-weaves on almost all of my setups, as most of my faster vessels can evade fire for short periods that make the active regeneration useful, while my larger/tougher vessels can survive repeat periods of shield collapse and regeneration. The fact that my CMDR lacks access to prismatics is also a factor in this, but there are a lot of ways one can leverage bi-weaves.

As for the power distributor, that's a no brainer for combat ships: Charge Enhanced + Super Conduits. I dont know the specifics only that it works best.

Charge enhanced five with super conduits gives you even higher WEP charge rates than weapon focused, and vastly higher charge rates in other areas. Since charge rate is generally much more useful than capacity, once a certain minimum capacity is reached, this is what makes this mod a no-brainer for most scenarios.

There are a few combat exceptions though: ships with low shield and/or low boost distributor draw that want to volley large numbers of high alpha weapons can benefit from weapon focused; and a lighter weight engine focused distributor can help certain specialized setups that have very low draw weapons (cannons and seekers, for example) save enough mass to be usefully faster without sacrificing much boostiness.

 

[The Red Wake]

A note about distributor draw: it's per MJ of shield regenerated, which makes actual distributor draw highest, by far, on bi-weaves, especially as they get larger.

THAT i did not know and is massively useful. Thank you!

Anyway, the advantage of prismatics is that upfront shield strength, which rapidly compounds into a significant difference as you add boosters. Since one cannot always ensure one will be able to regenerate shields, or get off uninterrupted SCB charges (feedback rails are extremely common, for good reason), there is often a strong argument to use them. SCBs are often frequently omitted for increased hull protection, or other reasons.

That was one of the major reasons for my 2nd question. Seeing as that there is some sort of tangible damage reduction and its not people being dumb and not paying attention to the distributor draw, I can see how just stacking shields can be benificial. Feedback rails I was already taking account of in my headspace though. I knew some of the more hull centric medium ships (ala chieftain) ditched the SCB, i would not have considered that on something like a vette, though I suppose I could see somewhat why that could be an avenue to pursue.

Personally, I favor bi-weaves on almost all of my setups, as most of my faster vessels can evade fire for short periods that make the active regeneration useful, while my larger/tougher vessels can survive repeat periods of shield collapse and regeneration. The fact that my CMDR lacks access to prismatics is also a factor in this, but there are a lot of ways one can leverage bi-weaves.

So if I understood you correctly you run bi-weaves on everything including the bigger ships?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

PAs bypass a lot of resistance, so that's another good reason for up front MJs over resistances.

Also with reboot it bears noting that half of a prismatic shield is about a full biweave worth of MJs, and rebooting is way faster than regen for a shield that size.

 

[Arguendo]

Mostly what I was looking for! Tyvm.

Now to figure out how that resistance works.

Dont suppose you have another fancy post detailing that? XD

Haha. Sorry. No fancy posts that I can remember off the top of my head concerning resistances. It has been discussed a bit before though, so it's pretty common knowledge. I assume you are talking about the three different kinds of resistances in the game, and not the "damage resistance" mentioned in the post I quoted.

Whatever the number for resistance you have, you either subtract from (if it's positive) or add to (if it's negative, which is common for thermal resist on stock shield generators) 100%. For example, if you have +40% resistance for thermal damage, you take (100-40=) 60% damage from thermal weapons. Or looking at it another way, your opponent's thermal weapon has a reduction of 40% damage.
For negative resistance, you actually take more than 100% damage. That's why lasers (and incendiary) are so effective on NPCs. Most of them run unengineered shields, which has a negative thermal resistance. Your lasers (or incendiary weapons) will therefore do more damage than what's on the tin.

Since you never know what you come up against, people try to balance their resistances as much as possible without losing absolute MJ (depicted as shield strenght in the statistics screen in the #3 panel). The latter is important against PAs, which mostly deal absolute damage that completely ignores resistance, as Bob mentioned above.

To really know what combination of boosters is the best, you actually have to calculate the actual MJs for each type and make a decision based on that. I did that with my Vulture, putting a standard 5A Shield Generator on it and tried with combinations of 4 boosters. I found the most useful to be a Reinforced + High Cap shield generator (yes I tried every possible combination) together with 3xHD+1xTH or 2xHD+1xRA+1xTH boosters all with Super Cap (I did not try every possible combination of experimentals). That gave me well balanced resistances (ie good protection against all types of damage) and still maintaining a decent absolute MJ. My preferred combo is 3xHD+1xTH due to facing PAs a lot in fights, but the difference isn't that significant tbh.

Hope that answered your questions. If not, I am not sure I can help anymore

 

[The Red Wake]

Haha. Sorry. No fancy posts that I can remember off the top of my head concerning resistances. It has been discussed a bit before though, so it's pretty common knowledge. I assume you are talking about the three different kinds of resistances in the game, and not the "damage resistance" mentioned in the post I quoted.

Whatever the number for resistance you have, you either subtract from (if it's positive) or add to (if it's negative, which is common for thermal resist on stock shield generators) 100%. For example, if you have +40% resistance for thermal damage, you take (100-40=) 60% damage from thermal weapons. Or looking at it another way, your opponent's thermal weapon has a reduction of 40% damage.
For negative resistance, you actually take more than 100% damage. That's why lasers (and incendiary) are so effective on NPCs. Most of them run unengineered shields, which has a negative thermal resistance. Your lasers (or incendiary weapons) will therefore do more damage than what's on the tin.

Since you never know what you come up against, people try to balance their resistances as much as possible without losing absolute MJ (depicted as shield strenght in the statistics screen in the #3 panel). The latter is important against PAs, which mostly deal absolute damage that completely ignores resistance, as Bob mentioned above.

To really know what combination of boosters is the best, you actually have to calculate the actual MJs for each type and make a decision based on that. I did that with my Vulture, putting a standard 5A Shield Generator on it and tried with combinations of 4 boosters. I found the most useful to be a Reinforced + High Cap shield generator (yes I tried every possible combination) together with 3xHD+1xTH or 2xHD+1xRA+1xTH boosters all with Super Cap (I did not try every possible combination of experimentals). That gave me well balanced resistances (ie good protection against all types of damage) and still maintaining a decent absolute MJ. My preferred combo is 3xHD+1xTH due to facing PAs a lot in fights, but the difference isn't that significant tbh.

Hope that answered your questions. If not, I am not sure I can help anymore

I was referring to the "resistance" conferred by the SYS pips you indicated previously and how its calculated along side the engineerable resistances like in this post.

That said, you've been more than helpful and I now have direction to search with my further inquiries! TYVM!!!

 

[Arguendo]

I was referring to the "resistance" conferred by the SYS pips you indicated previously and how its calculated along side the engineerable resistances like in this post.

That said, you've been more than helpful and I now have direction to search with my further inquiries! TYVM!!!

Ah.
Well, the damage resistance talked about in that post affects the absolute MJ. So a shield with 1000MJ in the stats, will have 2500 effective absolute MJ with 4 pips to SYS. It will have 1492 with 2 pips.
The other resistances are added after the modifier to the absolute. So the shield generator above with let's say 35% thermal resistance will have the following theoretical MJs against thermal damage:
1539MJ with zero pips to shields, 2296MJ with 2 pips, and 3846 with 4 pips.

 

[Morbad]

So if I understood you correctly you run bi-weaves on everything including the bigger ships?

Essentially, yes. I can't say it's statistically the most sound choice, but I do ok.

Handful of examples:

[video=youtube;LyX8oPhgPZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyX8oPhgPZ8[/video]

[video=youtube;9cZrIy5gH3A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cZrIy5gH3A[/video]

[video=youtube;IYq2gS06w84]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYq2gS06w84[/video]

[video=youtube;TAFB_2Necjc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAFB_2Necjc[/video]

Also with reboot it bears noting that half of a prismatic shield is about a full biweave worth of MJs, and rebooting is way faster than regen for a shield that size.

True, but no CMDR worth their salt is going to let you reboot mid-fight and against NPCs you'll never need to reboot with a big bi-weave.

I was referring to the "resistance" conferred by the SYS pips you indicated previously and how its calculated along side the engineerable resistances like in this post.

SYS pips and other resistances are independent; you multiply the effect with whatever the standing resists are. The resistance from SYS also apply to everything, even absolute damage.

 

[dfgqsb]

1. Resistance is partially ignored by PA's, since they do 60% absolute damage.
And shield active recharge stops every time you get hit, restarts after around 2 seconds (maybe 1.5, maybe 3, something like that), that means if you get hit more frequently than that, your shield simply won't recharge one single MJ.
Another thing is: pure MJ stack prismatic could give you up to 3000 more MJ than a high-resist bi weave for big ships.
With all 3 things combined, people just went for MJ stacked prismatic.

2. Like others said, SYS gives you absolute damage reduction, up to 60% with 4 pips, separated from resistance, and how fast sys recharges/how much energy left in SYS capacitor is irrelevant here.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

True, but no CMDR worth their salt is going to let you reboot mid-fight and against NPCs you'll never need to reboot with a big bi-weave.

Understood, it mainly adds a sense of scale.
The corollary being the bi-weave can be dependent on it's SCBs when the prismatic is still half full.

 

[The Red Wake]

Essentially, yes. I can't say it's statistically the most sound choice, but I do ok.

Handful of examples:

Nice spacing and thanks for the advice!